If there is a gap, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement

claninja · Oct 2, 2018

There are 6 things that must be accomplished by the 70 "sevens"
Daniel 9:24 Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) finish d transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to atone for wickedness, 4.) to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5.) to seal up vision and prophecy and 6.) to anoint the Most Holy Place. e

Looking at number 2.) to put and end to sin. Christ accomplished this at the cross:
Daniel 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The greek word for "do away" is: athétēsis – properly, annulment (cancellation), i.e. what is rendered "no longer in effect" (literally, "no longer having a place"). See 114 (atheteō).

Therefore Christ "cancelled/made longer in effect" sin by his sacrifice on the cross
By the cross, Christ has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Looking at number 3.) to atone for wickedness. Christ accomplished this at his death, resurrection, and ascension.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Christ was cut off AFTER 7+62 weeks:
Daniel 9:26 AFTER the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing

If there is gap between the 69th and 70th week, then Jesus was crucified, not within the 70 weeks, but in a gap OUTSIDE of the 70 prophetic weeks. And if Christ was crucified in the gap, then "to put an end to sin" and "atone for wickedness" were accomplished in the gap and not during any of the 70 prophetic weeks.

Therefore, to insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week falsifies Daniel 9:24.

DavidPT · Oct 2, 2018

claninja said:
There are 6 things that must be accomplished by the 70 "sevens"
Daniel 9:24 Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) finish d transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to atone for wickedness, 4.) to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5.) to seal up vision and prophecy and 6.) to anoint the Most Holy Place. e

Looking at number 2.) to put and end to sin. Christ accomplished this at the cross:
Daniel 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The greek word for "do away" is: athétēsis – properly, annulment (cancellation), i.e. what is rendered "no longer in effect" (literally, "no longer having a place"). See 114 (atheteō).

Therefore Christ "cancelled/made longer in effect" sin by his sacrifice on the cross
By the cross, Christ has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Looking at number 3.) to atone for wickedness. Christ accomplished this at his death, resurrection, and ascension.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Christ was cut off AFTER 7+62 weeks:
Daniel 9:26 AFTER the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing

If there is gap between the 69th and 70th week, then Jesus was crucified, not within the 70 weeks, but in a gap OUTSIDE of the 70 prophetic weeks. And if Christ was crucified in the gap, then "to put an end to sin" and "atone for wickedness" were accomplished in the gap and not during any of the 70 prophetic weeks.

Therefore, to insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week falsifies Daniel 9:24.

You still have the following issue to deal with though.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What does the text say?

This?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people----to make an end of sins

Or this?

69.5 weeks are determined upon thy people----to make an end of sins

If to make an end of sins is fulfilled in the midst of the 70th week, that means 69.5 weeks are determined upon thy people, and not 70 weeks like the text clearly indicates, to make an end of sins.

If a judge said that 7 years are determined to pay for the crime committed, that the accused is to spend 7 years behind bars in a state prison, but that the accused is instead released in 3.5 years, how did the accused logically spend 7 years behind bars in a state prison exactly like the judge so ordered?

claninja · Oct 2, 2018

DavidPT said:
You still have the following issue to deal with though.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What does the text say?

This?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people----to make an end of sins

Or this?

69.5 weeks are determined upon thy people----to make an end of sins

Notice, there are 6 points to be fulfilled in the 70 weeks. Not all 6 points are fulfilled at Christ being cut off.

I would argue that "anointing the most holy" did not occur in the midst, but at the beginning of the 70th week at Christ's baptism.

I would argue that Christ did not fulfill all that was written about him upon his death alone, but also in his ministry and at his resurrection and ascension, which occurred before and after the midst of the week and after he was cut off.

Additionally, if the prophecy is about the Holy people and Holy city, where was the gospel taken after Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension? To the Jews (holy people) in Jerusalem (holy city). After Stephen was stoned, the gospel went outside the holy city (Jerusalem), to the nations and to the gentiles.

DavidPT said:
If to make an end of sins is fulfilled in the midst of the 70th week, that means 69.5 weeks are determined upon thy people, and not 70 weeks like the text clearly indicates, to make an end of sins.

If there was only 1 point to be fulfilled with the 70 week prophecy, I would agree. However, there are 6 points that need to be fulfilled within the 70 week prophecy, and not all of them are fulfilled at Christ's death. Some are before and some are after.

DavidPT said:
If a judge said that 7 years are determined to pay for the crime committed, that the accused is to spend 7 years behind bars in a state prison, but that the accused is instead released in 3.5 years, how did the accused logically spend 7 years behind bars in a state prison exactly like the judge so ordered?

This argument only works if there is one point. However, Daniel 9:24 has 6 points. A more accurate scenario would be a judge said that 7 years are determined for rehabilitation: the prisoner must to go to prison, pay a fine, work community service, join a trade school/go to college, apologize to those he or she hurt, get a job.

Let's look at the gap theory in another argument.

A man states he will work on a house for 12 months and then it will be completed.
He works on the house only 1 month ( let's say June) out of the year, taking a total of 12 years to build the house. Now, as long as the man only worked on the house for 1 month out of the year for those 12 years, the first statement is technically true: it took 12 months (12 Junes) to build the house.
However, if in addition to June the man works on the house at all, even to install a light bulb, say in the month of October or even September, the first statement becomes false.

We can compare this to the 70 week prophecy with the gap theory. If there are 70 weeks for 6 points to be fulfilled, then the 6 points must be fulfilled in those 70 weeks, even if those weeks are spread out over 2000 years. however, if any of the 6 points are fulfilled outside of the 70 weeks, in a gap, then Daniel 9:24 becomes false.

Brian Mcnamee · Oct 2, 2018

claninja said:
There are 6 things that must be accomplished by the 70 "sevens"
Daniel 9:24 Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) finish d transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to atone for wickedness, 4.) to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5.) to seal up vision and prophecy and 6.) to anoint the Most Holy Place. e

Looking at number 2.) to put and end to sin. Christ accomplished this at the cross:
Daniel 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The greek word for "do away" is: athétēsis – properly, annulment (cancellation), i.e. what is rendered "no longer in effect" (literally, "no longer having a place"). See 114 (atheteō).

Therefore Christ "cancelled/made longer in effect" sin by his sacrifice on the cross
By the cross, Christ has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Looking at number 3.) to atone for wickedness. Christ accomplished this at his death, resurrection, and ascension.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Christ was cut off AFTER 7+62 weeks:
Daniel 9:26 AFTER the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing

If there is gap between the 69th and 70th week, then Jesus was crucified, not within the 70 weeks, but in a gap OUTSIDE of the 70 prophetic weeks. And if Christ was crucified in the gap, then "to put an end to sin" and "atone for wickedness" were accomplished in the gap and not during any of the 70 prophetic weeks.

Therefore, to insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week falsifies Daniel 9:24.

Hi the prophecy is form the order to rebuild 7 and 62 weeks until Messiah or the anointed one comes. The day the order went out is well recorded in history and exactly 483 years of 360 day years is when Jesus rode in foal of a donkey to shouts of Hosanna and as Jesus used to say my time has not yet come. But on this day Jesus wept for they knew not the hour of his visitation. This was the specific Daniel 9 mentions to the day but he goes on and says that Messiah will be cut off and not for himself and the people of a prince who is still to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And he ( the prince to come will make a covenant with the many and in the middle of the week put an end to the daily sacrifices. The scope you cited at the beginning or your post says the 70 7's are for Daniels people and the holy city. If you look up the many prophecies about the destiny of Jerusalem this is not fulfilled in any way. The end of sins in the sense you quote is true. But the first prophecy in the Bible is about the seed of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. Everlasting righteousness is not brought in until the man of sin is revealed and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and He shall rule forever. In zech 14 you can see the LORD comes with His saints and fights at Jerusalem which is being overrun. In that day the MT of Olives splits in two and a new river forms and in that day it is the LORD is King over all the earth. This is when the head of the serpent is crushed and everlasting righteousness comes to Jerusalem. From that day on all the nations must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Life continues on earth after the LORD comes as king.
Isaiah 24
It shall come to pass in that day
That the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the LORD of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.

micah 4
1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

The gap theory leaves the specific literal interpretation of the 42 months in Revelation leaving the abomination of desolation a future event. This is significant evidence that the 70th week if still future as Israel would need be a nation again and the return of the sacrifice would have to be accomplished. Israel now has west Jerusalem and has made every preparation for the return of the sacrifices at the same time global government is being formed. If God was done with Israel why are current events lining up against all odds with a gap theory?

DavidPT · Oct 2, 2018

claninja said:
Notice, there are 6 points to be fulfilled in the 70 weeks. Not all 6 points are fulfilled at Christ being cut off.

I would argue that "anointing the most holy" did not occur in the midst, but at the beginning of the 70th week at Christ's baptism.

I would argue that Christ did not fulfill all that was written about him upon his death alone, but also in his ministry and at his resurrection and ascension, which occurred before and after the midst of the week and after he was cut off.

Additionally, if the prophecy is about the Holy people and Holy city, where was the gospel taken after Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension? To the Jews (holy people) in Jerusalem (holy city). After Stephen was stoned, the gospel went outside the holy city (Jerusalem), to the nations and to the gentiles.

If there was only 1 point to be fulfilled with the 70 week prophecy, I would agree. However, there are 6 points that need to be fulfilled within the 70 week prophecy, and not all of them are fulfilled at Christ's death. Some are before and some are after.

And your arguments further prove my point then.

What does the text say?

This?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people----to anoint the most Holy.

Or this?

69 weeks are determined upon thy people----to anoint the most Holy.

Let's try something else here. Let's use the following for an example for the point I'm trying to make.

Jeremiah 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

When can this part be fulfilled----that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations?

During the seventy years in question here? Or after the 70 years in question here? If the latter, why would the same not be true of Daniel 9:24, that the 70 weeks determined have to be fulfilled first, then all 6 of those things are the result? How does Daniel's people and the holy city finish the 70 weeks determined, in regards to the transgression, before the 70 weeks are even fulfilled? Why does the text indicate 70 weeks are determined if it really means 69 weeks and or 69.5 weeks instead?

DavidPT · Oct 2, 2018

claninja said:
Let's look at the gap theory in another argument.

A man states he will work on a house for 12 months and then it will be completed.
He works on the house only 1 month ( let's say June) out of the year, taking a total of 12 years to build the house. Now, as long as the man only worked on the house for 1 month out of the year for those 12 years, the first statement is technically true: it took 12 months (12 Junes) to build the house.
However, if in addition to June the man works on the house at all, even to install a light bulb, say in the month of October or even September, the first statement becomes false.

Very good analogy, can't argue with that logic. Still I can still come up with an analogy myself as well, as I have done in the past, where it supports my conclusions as well. IOW there is more than just one way to look at this.

claninja said:
We can compare this to the 70 week prophecy with the gap theory. If there are 70 weeks for 6 points to be fulfilled, then the 6 points must be fulfilled in those 70 weeks, even if those weeks are spread out over 2000 years. however, if any of the 6 points are fulfilled outside of the 70 weeks, in a gap, then Daniel 9:24 becomes false.

I get your point here. But if the 6 things are meaning once an entire 70 weeks have been fulfilled first, it makes your point moot in that case. Let's not forget that Daniel 9:24, that it is Daniel's people and the holy city, that these things are involving. For example. These 70 weeks determined to finish the transgression, does that also include all of the Gentiles as well? IOW is Daniel's people only meaning his people the Jews, or is his people meaning the entire human race? And if the latter, why would the entire human race be described as Daniel's people?

DavidPT · Oct 2, 2018

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi the prophecy is form the order to rebuild 7 and 62 weeks until Messiah or the anointed one comes. The day the order went out is well recorded in history and exactly 483 years of 360 day years is when Jesus rode in foal of a donkey to shouts of Hosanna and as Jesus used to say my time has not yet come. But on this day Jesus wept for they knew not the hour of his visitation. This was the specific Daniel 9 mentions to the day but he goes on and says that Messiah will be cut off and not for himself and the people of a prince who is still to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And he ( the prince to come will make a covenant with the many and in the middle of the week put an end to the daily sacrifices. The scope you cited at the beginning or your post says the 70 7's are for Daniels people and the holy city. If you look up the many prophecies about the destiny of Jerusalem this is not fulfilled in any way. The end of sins in the sense you quote is true. But the first prophecy in the Bible is about the seed of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. Everlasting righteousness is not brought in until the man of sin is revealed and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and He shall rule forever. In zech 14 you can see the LORD comes with His saints and fights at Jerusalem which is being overrun. In that day the MT of Olives splits in two and a new river forms and in that day it is the LORD is King over all the earth. This is when the head of the serpent is crushed and everlasting righteousness comes to Jerusalem. From that day on all the nations must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Life continues on earth after the LORD comes as king.
Isaiah 24
It shall come to pass in that day
That the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the LORD of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.

micah 4
1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

The gap theory leaves the specific literal interpretation of the 42 months in Revelation leaving the abomination of desolation a future event. This is significant evidence that the 70th week if still future as Israel would need be a nation again and the return of the sacrifice would have to be accomplished. Israel now has west Jerusalem and has made every preparation for the return of the sacrifices at the same time global government is being formed. If God was done with Israel why are current events lining up against all odds with a gap theory?

Some good points here. I'm not convinced of this part though----"and the return of the sacrifice would have to be accomplished."

mkgal1 · Oct 2, 2018

DavidPT said:
Let's try something else here. Let's use the following for an example for the point I'm trying to make.

Jeremiah 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

When can this part be fulfilled----that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations?

During the seventy years in question here? Or after the 70 years in question here? If the latter, why would the same not be true of Daniel 9:24, that the 70 weeks determined have to be fulfilled first, then all 6 of those things are the result? How does Daniel's people and the holy city finish the 70 weeks determined, in regards to the transgression, before the 70 weeks are even fulfilled? Why does the text indicate 70 weeks are determined if it really means 69 weeks and or 69.5 weeks instead?

There's a difference in the wording of these two passages.

Jeremiah 25:12 says (as you quoted) "when seventy years are accomplished....."

....but Daniel 9:24 is saying the whole 70 weeks "are decreed for your people" (meaning ALL 70 weeks are for 'Daniel's people and the Holy city' (also as you already posted).

There is a tie to these periods of time, though....as when the Israelites had not followed the Sabbath rules set up by God for 490 years....that left 70 land Sabbath years where the land wasn't able to rest. Their captivity for 70 years then allowed the land to rest.

Then the land will enjoy its Sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its Sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your Sabbaths, while you were living on it (Lev. 26:34-35).

For the land shall be deserted by them, and enjoy its sabbath years by lying desolate without them, while they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they dared to spurn my ordinances, and they abhorred my statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, or abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break my covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God; 45 but I will remember in their favour the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, to be their God: I am the Lord. (Lev. 26:43 - 45)

DavidPT · Oct 2, 2018

mkgal1 said:
There's a difference in the wording of these two passages.

Jeremiah 15:12 says (as you quoted) "when seventy years are accomplished....."

....but Daniel 9:24 is saying the whole 70 weeks "are decreed for your people" (meaning ALL 70 weeks are for 'Daniel's people and the Holy city' (also as you already posted).

There is a tie to these periods of time, though....as when the Israelites had not followed the Sabbath rules set up by God for 490 years....that left 70 land Sabbath years where the land wasn't able to rest. Their captivity for 70 years then allowed the land to rest.

Then the land will enjoy its Sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its Sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your Sabbaths, while you were living on it (Lev. 26:34-35).

For the land shall be deserted by them, and enjoy its sabbath years by lying desolate without them, while they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they dared to spurn my ordinances, and they abhorred my statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, or abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break my covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God; 45 but I will remember in their favour the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, to be their God: I am the Lord. (Lev. 26:43 - 45)

In general, what exactly is the difference though, between 'when seventy years are accomplished' as opposed to 'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish'? Does the text indicate anything less than 70 weeks can finish these things? Or does the text indicate it requires the entire 70 weeks in order to finish these things?

mkgal1 · Oct 2, 2018

DavidPT said:
In general, what exactly is the difference though, between 'when seventy years are accomplished' as opposed to 'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish'? Does the text indicate anything less than 70 weeks can finish these things? Or does the text indicate it requires the entire 70 weeks in order to finish these things?

Did you read my entire post (with the Scriptures)? I'm not really sure how else to phrase it to make it more clear. Jeremiah is saying the land needed to lay dormant for 70 years in order to pay for the Sabbaths that were missed over the 490 years (as per the covenant).

The 70 weeks in Daniel was a time period set aside where those six things were to be fulfilled (within the boundaries of that time).

I'm a visual person, so timeline images help me (here is one):

Jehoiakim, King of Judah 609-598 BC seals, bulla They're Digging up Bible Stories!

mkgal1 · Oct 2, 2018

Other versions of Jeremiah 25:12:

New Living Translation
"Then, after the seventy years of captivity are over, I will punish the king of Babylon and his people for their sins," says the LORD. "I will make the country of the Babylonians a wasteland forever.

English Standard Version
Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste.

mkgal1 · Oct 2, 2018

The way I understand the premise in the OP.....if a person is trying to go by the gap theory....then some of the fulfillments -actually all pertaining to Christ- are off in an unidentified period of time (not wishing to include them in the 70 weeks....but reality of history tells us Christ's baptism, crucifixion, ascension, and Pentecost were AFTER the 69th "week").

The other problem I see is that this period of the gap is typically called the "church age" (correct? This is new material to me).....how is it supported that the "church age" would have an end? The church is God's kingdom....and His kingdom is eternal.

I attached a timeline that I've found that is advocating for the gap theory. See how the cross is dangling off in an unspecified period of time? I see that as a time vacuum or like a black hole (and it puts the cross right in center of it). It is sort of curious to me that the image of the cross isn't actually centered in the "prophetic gap" in the picture - even though the years shown align with it being in the midst of the seven years.

claninja · Oct 2, 2018

DavidPT said:
And your arguments further prove my point then.

What does the text say?
This?
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people----to anoint the most Holy.
Or this?
69 weeks are determined upon thy people----to anoint the most Holy.

The text states "70 weeks are determined" for the holy people and the holy city TO 1.) finish the transgression 2.) put an end to sin 3.) atone for wickedness 4.) bring in everlasting righteousness 5.) seal up vision and prophecy 6.) anoint the most holy.

DavidPT said:
Let's try something else here. Let's use the following for an example for the point I'm trying to make.

Jeremiah 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

When can this part be fulfilled----that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations?

The sentence structure and grammar make it obvious that the king of Babylon would be punished after the 70 years are accomplished. Historically we know this as well, as the kingdom of Babylon was overtaken by the persians/medes after Israel's 70 years captive.

DavidPT said:
If the latter, why would the same not be true of Daniel 9:24, that the 70 weeks determined have to be fulfilled first, then all 6 of those things are the result?

Because the sentence structure and grammar between Jeremiah 25 and Daniel 9 are completely different. Jeremiah tells us after Israel's 70 years, the king of Babylon would be punished. Daniel 9, on the other hand, does not say "WHEN" 70 weeks are accomplished or "AFTER" 70 weeks are accomplished.

Daniel 9:24 clearly tells us 70 week are determined TO....

If I told you "you have 1 year TO lay a foundation, put up walls, furnish a roof, lay down the plumbing, and install the wiring", it's obvious that these 5 tasks would be completed DURING the 1 year

However, if I said "when 1 year is ACCOMPLISHED, you may lay the foundation, put up walls, furnish a roof, lay down the plumbing, and install the wiring" then yes, the 5 tasks of building the house would not start until AFTER the 1 year

These are 2 completely different sets of instructions.

DavidPT said:
How does Daniel's people and the holy city finish the 70 weeks determined, in regards to the transgression, before the 70 weeks are even fulfilled?

The death of Christ redeemed those who committed transgressions under the 1st covenant:
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant

The old covenant no longer exists. Therefore, NO ONE (jew or proselyte) can commit a transgression under the old covenant any longer. And those that did sin under the old covenant and believed in Christ were redeemed.

DavidPT said:
Why does the text indicate 70 weeks are determined if it really means 69 weeks and or 69.5 weeks instead?

Christ was cut off in the midst of the week. I would argue this is the midst of the 70th week.

But let's use your argument: Christ is cut off in 69.5 weeks. Did anything happen to Christ AFTER the 69.5 mark or did he remain in the ground?

A couple things happened after the 69.5: Christ rose on the 3rd day to fulfill vision and prophet. Christ ascended to heaven to fulfill vision and prophet, Christ sent the Holy spirit to fulfill vision and prophet, and the gospel went specifically to the holy people and holy city to fulfill vision and prophet.

DavidPT said:
But if the 6 things are meaning once an entire 70 weeks have been fulfilled first, it makes your point moot in that case.

I agree, if Christ has not yet put away sin by his sacrifice, if Christ has not yet atoned for sin, or if Christ has not yet redeemed those who committed transgressions under the 1st covenant, and we are still waiting for this, then you are absolutely right, the 6 points can be fulfilled AFTER the 70 weeks are finished.

However, Scripture explicitly disagrees:

For Christ did put away sin by his sacrifice
Hebrews 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself
Christ did atone for wickedness
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people
Christ did redeem those who transgressed under the 1st covenant
Hebrews 9:15 now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

These 3 points were fulfilled before the 70 weeks ended. It is Christ's death that fulfills these points. However, if Christ's death is in a gap, then these 3 points were fulfilled in a gap and NOT within the 70 weeks. Thus the gap makes Daniel 9:24 a false statement.

If one claims that the 6 points are fulfilled after the 70 weeks end, they deny that Christ put an end to sin by his death, that Christ atoned for wickedness, and the Christ redeemed those who transgressed under the old covenant.

DavidPT said:
These 70 weeks determined to finish the transgression, does that also include all of the Gentiles as well?

Unless the Gentile was a Proselyte under the old covenant, otherwise No.

Gentiles were not under the old covenant law. Gentiles that were not under the law died apart of the law. But the Jews (God's holy people) who were under the law, were be judged by the law.
Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law.

Did gentiles, who were not under the old covenant, have to die to the law of moses? No. But the Jews did:
Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God

DavidPT said:
IOW is Daniel's people only meaning his people the Jews, or is his people meaning the entire human race? And if the latter, why would the entire human race be described as Daniel's people?

The 70 weeks were determined specifically for the Jews and Jerusalem. Not the gentiles. 3.5 years after Jesus death the gospel went outside the jews and jerusalem to the gentiles.

claninja · Oct 2, 2018

mkgal1 said:
The way I understand the premise in the OP.....if a person is trying to go by the gap theory....then some of the fulfillments -actually all pertaining to Christ- are off in an unidentified period of time (not wishing to include them in the 70 weeks....but reality of history tells us Christ's baptism, crucifixion, ascension, and Pentecost were AFTER the 69th "week").

Exactly, If one is going to insert gaps within the 70 weeks, then the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 cannot occur within the gaps, outside of the prophetic weeks, otherwise Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement.

Example:
A man states he will work on a house for 12 months and then it will be completed.
He works on the house only 1 month ( let's say June) out of the year, taking a total of 12 years to build the house. Now, as long as the man only worked on the house for 1 month out of the year for those 12 years, the first statement is technically true: it took 12 months (12 Junes) to build the house.
However, if in addition to June the man works on the house at all, even to install a light bulb, say in the month of October or even September, the first statement becomes false.

ToServe · Oct 2, 2018

DavidPT said:
What does the text say?

This?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people----to make an end of sins

Or this?

69.5 weeks are determined upon thy people----to make an end of sins

First, of all, the method by which they count is the cup is half full, rather than the western method of the cup is half empty. For example, if a person is 40 years and 4 months old, they would count that person as entering his 41st year and so in respect to 69.5 weeks, well this is counted as entering the middle of the 70th week.

If you use the same underlying eastern methodology, you will understand the language from a completely different perspective and it is from the type of perspective that either result in the correct interpretation or an erroneous western imposed interpretation.

Let us look at the language from a perspective of the cup half full and put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Learn to interpret by working backwards, thinking of perspective from an author who writes opposite from right to left and accounts for weeks as the cup half full.

"Jesus (antecedent The Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

The middle of the 70th week is 69.5 weeks by the methodology of counting the cup as half full.

"to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:"

Jesus (antecedent the Messiah) came at the 7 weeks plus 62 weeks, which adds up to 69 weeks.

Notice Jesus is confirming the covenant in that single week from 69 weeks until the cup is full at the 70th-week marker. Jesus is confirming the covenant with many which are not only Daniel's people but is suggestive of Gentiles as well.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people"

The method of interpretation is from the perspective that immediately when the 70th week commences at the 69th-week marker, The Messiah is first preaching to the Jews within the first half of that week until his crucifixion at 69.5 weeks.

It leaves no question that Messiah confirms the covenant with Daniel's people the Jews from the 69th week marker to the 69.5 week marker and then for the remainder of the 70th week from 69.5 to 70 the Commission is handed over to his two anointed ones who are Jews and Gentiles (two witnesses / two olive trees), within his Candlestick Menorah, that is his Church, to the Gentile nations of the world within the outer unmeasured Gentile court. The Gentiles from 69.5 weeks are trampling his commissioned two witensses for the remainder of the 70th week and after they finish their testimony from the little sweet book, the Gospel, then they are raised after 3.5 days which suggests 3.5 days first half of the week (Christ's ministry to the Jews) and the 3.5 days remaining half of the week is his Church's commission to the Gentile world at large through his two anointed ones (Jews and Gentiles).

Matthew 15:22-27

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Jesus tells the Canaanite woman the following “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

So before anyone says why on earth did the Lord say those things?

The children are the 144,000 under the Old Covenant from all the tribes of Israel and these are Daniel's people who the Messiah urgently needed to minister to before he would send his two witnesses to minister to the Gentiles from every nation. That determined upon Daniel's people the Jews were the opening commission of Jesus to the children of the Abrahamic faith and so Jesus would use this to assert two things, one being that his commission was to the Jews and secondly to use reverse psychology against the stiff-necked Jews who would not come to him to be healed as the little children of the Kingdom ought to do. So his statement worked to lambast the children so that they would come to him and to take what is promised to them through him (Seed of Promise) and so the language suggests a two-pronged effect. Jesus knew the very clever woman would answer him that way and she would be used as a case in point anchor to lambast those children who are sitting on the fence and leaving their crumbs by not eating what is meant for them.

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

Then after the 144,000 Jews under the Old Covenant are sealed under Christ's ministry then the Gospel goes out to the Gentiles for the remainder of the 70th week through the Commission of his two anointed ones, his Church (Menorah).

The Three Angels

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.

The same sequence is presented in Revelation 7.

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

These, who sing the song of Moses were sealed through Christ's ministry.

Then the Gospel goes out to the second group who sing the song of the Lamb within the outer unmeasured temple under the testimony of the two witnesses his Church.

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So the remainder of the week from 69.5 to 70 is the Church's commission to the Gentile nations at large and this will continue to be done until the full Gentile numbers are fully accounted for within the Book of Life.

Since we stand here today, we can rest assured that we believers are Gentiles coming to full in being accounted for so to speak. The 1988 years ministry of the Church has no gap theory but is a work in progress until the full Gentile numbers come to be accounted for by Jesus Christ. In that respect Jesus must continue to reign through his Cross in making disciples of the world until the full Gentile numbers are accounted for throughout the New Covenant Age spanning the entire 3.5 day (remaining half of Daniel's 70th week ) ministry of his Church.

BABerean2 · Oct 2, 2018

DavidPT said:
What does the text say?

The text reveals timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Some of us seem to think the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant.

They must think the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is not related to the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

mkgal1 · Oct 2, 2018

ToServe said:
For example, if a person is 40 years and 4 months old, they would count that person as entering his 41st year and so in respect to 69.5 weeks, well this is counted as entering the middle of the 70th week.

No.....I would count that as the fortieth year.

Same thing with the 70 weeks of Daniel.

This is the timeline that makes sense in my mind (so far, but I'm open to seeing others) Keep in mind, when doing the math, that there is no year "0"....so that's where the extra year comes from. IOW...457 + 34 = 491 - but you need to account for no year zero:

iamlamad · Oct 2, 2018

claninja said:
There are 6 things that must be accomplished by the 70 "sevens"
Daniel 9:24 Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) finish d transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to atone for wickedness, 4.) to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5.) to seal up vision and prophecy and 6.) to anoint the Most Holy Place. e

Looking at number 2.) to put and end to sin. Christ accomplished this at the cross:
Daniel 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The greek word for "do away" is: athétēsis – properly, annulment (cancellation), i.e. what is rendered "no longer in effect" (literally, "no longer having a place"). See 114 (atheteō).

Therefore Christ "cancelled/made longer in effect" sin by his sacrifice on the cross
By the cross, Christ has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Looking at number 3.) to atone for wickedness. Christ accomplished this at his death, resurrection, and ascension.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, k fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Christ was cut off AFTER 7+62 weeks:
Daniel 9:26 AFTER the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing

If there is gap between the 69th and 70th week, then Jesus was crucified, not within the 70 weeks, but in a gap OUTSIDE of the 70 prophetic weeks. And if Christ was crucified in the gap, then "to put an end to sin" and "atone for wickedness" were accomplished in the gap and not during any of the 70 prophetic weeks.

Therefore, to insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week falsifies Daniel 9:24.

The 70th week was and is for DANIEL'S people. Christ died for Jew and Gentile alike. He took away the sins of THE WORLD!

ToServe · Oct 2, 2018

mkgal1 said:
No.....I would count that as the fortieth year.

That is OK, suit yourself, but just one friendly reminder that the author trying to convey his point is not you!

ToServe · Oct 2, 2018

ToServe said:
First, of all, the method by which they count is the cup is half full, rather than the western method of the cup is half empty. For example, if a person is 40 years and 4 months old, they would count that person as entering his 41st year and so in respect to 69.5 weeks, well this is counted as entering the middle of the 70th week.

If you use the same underlying eastern methodology, you will understand the language from a completely different perspective and it is from the type of perspective that either result in the correct interpretation or an erroneous western imposed interpretation.

Let us look at the language from a perspective of the cup half full and put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Learn to interpret by working backwards, thinking of perspective from an author who writes opposite from right to left and accounts for weeks as the cup half full.

"Jesus (antecedent The Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

The middle of the 70th week is 69.5 weeks by the methodology of counting the cup as half full.

"to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:"

Jesus (antecedent the Messiah) came at the 7 weeks plus 62 weeks, which adds up to 69 weeks.

Notice Jesus is confirming the covenant in that single week from 69 weeks until the cup is full at the 70th-week marker. Jesus is confirming the covenant with many which are not only Daniel's people but is suggestive of Gentiles as well.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people"

The method of interpretation is from the perspective that immediately when the 70th week commences at the 69th-week marker, The Messiah is first preaching to the Jews within the first half of that week until his crucifixion at 69.5 weeks.

It leaves no question that Messiah confirms the covenant with Daniel's people the Jews from the 69th week marker to the 69.5 week marker and then for the remainder of the 70th week from 69.5 to 70 the Commission is handed over to his two anointed ones who are Jews and Gentiles (two witnesses / two olive trees), within his Candlestick Menorah, that is his Church, to the Gentile nations of the world within the outer unmeasured Gentile court. The Gentiles from 69.5 weeks are trampling his commissioned two witensses for the remainder of the 70th week and after they finish their testimony from the little sweet book, the Gospel, then they are raised after 3.5 days which suggests 3.5 days first half of the week (Christ's ministry to the Jews) and the 3.5 days remaining half of the week is his Church's commission to the Gentile world at large through his two anointed ones (Jews and Gentiles).

Matthew 15:22-27

Jesus tells the Canaanite woman the following “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

So before anyone says why on earth did the Lord say those things?

The children are the 144,000 under the Old Covenant from all the tribes of Israel and these are Daniel's people who the Messiah urgently needed to minister to before he would send his two witnesses to minister to the Gentiles from every nation. That determined upon Daniel's people the Jews were the opening commission of Jesus to the children of the Abrahamic faith and so Jesus would use this to assert two things, one being that his commission was to the Jews and secondly to use reverse psychology against the stiff-necked Jews who would not come to him to be healed as the little children of the Kingdom ought to do. So his statement worked to lambast the children so that they would come to him and to take what is promised to them through him (Seed of Promise) and so the language suggests a two-pronged effect. Jesus knew the very clever woman would answer him that way and she would be used as a case in point anchor to lambast those children who are sitting on the fence and leaving their crumbs by not eating what is meant for them.

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

Then after the 144,000 Jews under the Old Covenant are sealed under Christ's ministry then the Gospel goes out to the Gentiles for the remainder of the 70th week through the Commission of his two anointed ones, his Church (Menorah).

The Three Angels

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.

The same sequence is presented in Revelation 7.

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

These, who sing the song of Moses were sealed through Christ's ministry.

Then the Gospel goes out to the second group who sing the song of the Lamb within the outer unmeasured temple under the testimony of the two witnesses his Church.

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So the remainder of the week from 69.5 to 70 is the Church's commission to the Gentile nations at large and this will continue to be done until the full Gentile numbers are fully accounted for within the Book of Life.

Since we stand here today, we can rest assured that we believers are Gentiles coming to full in being accounted for so to speak. The 1988 years ministry of the Church has no gap theory but is a work in progress until the full Gentile numbers come to be accounted for by Jesus Christ. In that respect Jesus must continue to reign through his Cross in making disciples of the world until the full Gentile numbers are accounted for throughout the New Covenant Age spanning the entire 3.5 day (remaining half of Daniel's 70th week ) ministry of his Church.

Summary of the above is this

Jesus ministers to the Jews to restore the Kingdom as he claimed to be the Kingdom in Person. He does this at the 69-week marker and is crucified at the 69.5-marker.

Then the Holy Spirit unction the Church to continue where Jesus left off from at the 69.5-week marker and ministers to the Gentiles within the outer court of the Gentiles for a time, times and half a time until the Gentiles come to be all accounted for in the Book of Life.

The ministry of the Church ends at the 70th-week marker where the Kingdom building has been going on until Christ calls it a day and then returns to judge the living and the dead.

There is no gap theory as the purpose of restoring the Kingdom is a work in progress and this has been going on until Christ puts down all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. The end will come when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

The end is not 70AD neither does it have a gap theory when the Kingdom building for God that started when Christ came into the world in Person and ascended up on high to receive the dominion and Kingdom of Daniel 2:44.

If there is a gap, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Attachments

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Lamad

Active Member

Active Member

Similar threads