The value of our epistemological method in coming to a belief...

Bugeyedcreepy

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Cause of the prophecy? It's a foretelling of what is to come! What in the world you mean--cause?
If I predict that there's going to be an earthquake that will kill hundreds of people - and this happens at any point in the future, was I (or whatever deity I was writing my book on behalf of), the only possible cause of the prophecy?
The only unfulfilled ones, are the ones that are yet to come.
What about Ezekiel 26:1-21 - Nebuchadnezzar never destroyed the fortress island of Tyr, nor was it wiped bare and left a barren wasteland for nothing more than laying out of fishing nets.

What about Ezekiel 29:1-15 - Egypt was never an uninhabitable desolate wasteland for any time let alone desolate from the towers of syene to the borders of ethiopia for 40 years as prophecised, humans and animals have crossed it repeatedly over the thousands of years since this prophecy was declared with nary a hoot made from anyone about it.

What about Ezekiel 29:16-21 - Egypt proper was never conquered by Nebuchadnezzar.

What about Ezekiel 30:12 - The River Nile never dried up.

What about Isaiah 19:1-8 - The Nile never stopped flowing into the Sea and the Sea never drained.

What about Isaiah 19:18 - The Egyptians never spoke Canaan (or the Hebrew language derived from Canaan)

I could easily go on, but in the interests of brevity, I'd like to hear what you have to say about these "fulfilled" prophecies and why they look exactly like failed prophecies instead.
Medo-Persia and Greece by name. Bible prophecies are mainly dealing with things from the middle east, Europe. China did not conquer the Middle east and Europe. It also doesn't mention the Mayan Empire--not pertinent to what Israel and Jesus is about. It does, however, prophecy America--not by name.
Seems like a lot of post-hoc rationalisation going on here - where did the Bible mention these by name, and for the anonymous writers writing on behalf of the almighty creator of the universe to only be concerned with their immediate neighborhood is disingenuous to say the least. Why weren't the Chinese, the Mayans, etc. not important enough to be addressed by the God that created everything and loves his creations? Why were they all left to make up their own religions and God(s) that had no crossover with your religion?
Again, USA, Russia, China have not conquered the Middle East/Europe. No one has ever united Europe, Hitler was the last to try.
so the only thing that's important to your God is this one little tribe occupying little more than a city in size pretty much throughout all of history? That does create more questions than it answers, because it literally excises all the facts of all these other contemporary world powers so it can have a convenient narrative to mislead its followers, yet you then want to assert that for some reason America is mentioned, but not by name, even though it too is not a world power conquering the Middle East? Do you really find that acceptable?
I already said, He did not change His mind, He already mentioned in the OT that there would come a time when a new covenant would come into play.
Where in the OT does it say this, and what conditions does it say have to come to pass before the old covenant is done away with? How come so many Jews both then and now remain so unconvinced the old covenant has been done away with?
Yes--He was face to face with Adam and Eve in the Garden, Then they fell and sin separated them from Him. He no longer could meet them face to face-sin can not live in the presence of God and they would have died. He then spoke directly to them. When that, too was rejected by man--He then spoke through the Holy spirit --until Abraham and Moses. He spoke directly to them. He has occasionally spoken to His prophets directly. Even His voice is power and not easily tolerated by sinful man.
Well, the bible definitely has God talking to Adam and Eve face to face after they sinned - so he can and that's just nonsense post-hoc rationalisation on your part. Your God gave them a good dressing down before cursing them and all of their descendants, before kicking them out of the Garden... perhaps your loving God included that as part of his curse on all of humanity for the inequity of two people who didn't know any better?
There you go again. He chose the tribe of Israel to be descended from. He then had to protect them from those who would wipe them out
Did your God have no idea what would happen in the future?
Satan also knew they were His chosen people from which He would descend and tried to wipe them out.
Your God chose to allow Satan to exist, AND have power in the real world - how would it be our fault that your God fostered this supernatural cold-war with Satan in a small pocket in the middle east? It's far more plausible to see the Jews as just another warmongering tribe in the area at the time - they never had much in the way of territory or stature with the regional powers of the time anyway.
Besides their being totally depraved and sinful--which I've already mentioned several times, sacrificing their children to idols and inappropriate behavior with animals and pagan orgies----those that had to be eliminated were trying to kill all the Jews-He was protecting his people.
from the Children and Infants and Oxen that were likely themselves victims of this alleged corruption too?? Your God doesn't seem very thoughtful... or powerful.... or wise either for that matter...
Don't like it----too bad. If you had been a Jew, you would have thought otherwise.

He always has loved everyone--but everyone hasn't always loved Him. The parents of Jeffrey Dahmer loved him--but he was a monster that had to be out down. God has to make that choice sometimes.
I doubt it. God doesn't have to do any such thing. Here's a handful of things that I as a fallible mere mortal could imagine to be a better way to handle things just using things he's already done in the Bible. Your God could have walked the victim children & infants & Oxen to the (possible) safety of the Jews before the Jews slaughtered the evil adults and children, just like the animals came to Noah before the Flood that horrifically drowned the entire world - or your God could've plagued them in a reverse "egyptian first born" like scenario, that is all the evil parents and corrupt children would die in their sleep overnight leaving the innocent children, infants and oxen untouched - or God could've turned the Beasts on their masters, killing only the evil among them like the two she bears killed all those evil namecalling children who made the bald priest cry, etc. There's so many better ways that such a thing could be done, yet it seems your God either lacked the humanity to avoid such a barbaric and totalitarian way to achieve his goals, or lacked the will/power to action it.

Also, isn't Jeffrey Dahmer likely in heaven, enjoying an eternity of bliss with Jesus right now?
LOL. You think I haven't read those?? Why do you ask what I have already answered? The 10 commandments are the 10 commandments-period.
Because they're Different! Exodus 34 are labelled the Ten Commandments whereas the others weren't!
There is no difference between them. You are putting something that was not labeled as the original 10 with the 10. Ex 34 --I already said--is just a summation of the fact the Moses had broken the original set of stone tablets and he had to go back and God rewrote them---He rewrote the same original 10 as in Ex., 20--those are the 10--period. Those are the ones in the Ark. Do what you will with your theory.
The original 10 at Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5 were never labelled the Ten Commandments! Instead, the commandments recited in Exodus 34 are the ones labelled the Ten Commandments! Why would your God recite these Ten Commandments for Moses to write down if they weren't what God wanted Moses to write down?
The 1st 4 of the 10 deal with our duty to God, the last 6 of the 10 deal with our duty to man. Jesus summed them up thus:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

To this day--the Jews have no trouble in knowing the 10---Ex 20.
Jesus only lists two commandments in Matthew 22 as he specifically states - neither of which are a word-for-word portrayal of either sets of ten commandments. Perhaps these are the first two, with another 8 to come to complete the new covenant Ten Commandments? It's clear that Jesus' "two commandments" aren't any of the Ten Commandments at either Exodus 20 or Exodus 34. It seems you're adding interpretation to the Bible there.
OT:
Jer_31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
er 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

NT:
Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb_8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Doesn't match up. Israel doesn't recognise Jesus as the messiah let alone that he's mediated a new covenant with them, so no covenant has been renewed with Israel as far as Israel knows. It doesn't make sense for a God to say he will be changing the covenant with his chosen tribe of Israel, then forget to tell said tribe - or worse, find the worst way to get his message across and then never follow it up to see that they eventually get the message, even after they establish the nation of Israel again... If your God can't even convince his chosen people that he has a new covenant with them, then how on earth can you be surprised that nobody else outside Israel doesn't believe either?
 
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mmksparbud

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What about Ezekiel 26:1-21 - Nebuchadnezzar never destroyed the fortress island of Tyr, nor was it wiped bare and left a barren wasteland for nothing more than laying out of fishing nets.


Ezekiel 26:3-5, “Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.”

The city of Tyre (Tyrus) was a thriving Phoenician city in ancient times, a source of economic abundance and trading. God pronounced judgment upon the city of Tyre. The surviving inhabitants after Babylon's invasion moved all their possessions and families to a little isle just off of Tyre. They thought they'd be safe on their little island.

But 250 years after Babylon destroyed Tyre, Alexander the Great of Greece was determined to conquer that little island. So what Alexander the Great did was scrape the dust of Tyrus (just as God prophesied in Ezekiel 26:3-5), using the dust to build a causeway (a road that is raised above water or marshland or sand) reaching out to that little island where the remnant of Tyrus thought they were safe. Alexander the Great totally annihilated that little island and left it desolate just as God had foretold in prophecy. Right down to the last letter, God's Word has been fulfilled.

History documents that Tyre was destroyed by her enemies, leaving the city a wasteland...

What about Ezekiel 29:1-15 - Egypt was never an uninhabitable desolate wasteland for any time let alone desolate from the towers of syene to the borders of ethiopia for 40 years as prophecised, humans and animals have crossed it repeatedly over the thousands of years since this prophecy was declared with nary a hoot made from anyone about it.


There are 2 views of this prophecy: 1) Is that it occured in 588BCE, 2 years after Ezekiel made his prophecy(590BCE); which sets the Destruction of Jerusalem at 607BCE, instead of 587BCE. Egypt, being carried off in captivity, and so are those reminants of Jersalem who fled to Egypt in defiance of Jeremiah's prophecy(Jer. 42:15,16,19; 43:10,11) This date would allow for a 40 year captivity period, ending with an alliance of Nabonidus(Babylon) with King Amasis II of Egypt. Since Egypt had already been taken captive-it was reduced to a 'vassal state' by the later date-agreeing with the prophecy of Ezekiel.

However, all of this fails if the Babylonian captivity stated in 568BCE; then Egypt would have only been captive 21 years, and even if there were no alliance between Babylon and Egypt(from the Nebuchnezzar Inscription tablet in the British Museum) Cyrus would have freed ALL captives 8 years later, in 539BCE.

The 2nd view is that it is a future prophecy, waiting to be fulfilled




It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC). Ezekiel 26:12–14 states that God caused Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Tyre because its residents gloated over the fall of Jerusalem. The Tyrians held off Nebuchadnezzar's siege for thirteen years, resupplying the walled island city through its two harbours. Later, a king of Cyprus took Tyre using his fleet in the 370s BC, "a remarkable success about which little is known," according to historian Robin Lane Fox.

In 332 BC, the city was conquered by Alexander the Great, after a siege of seven months in which he built the causeway from the mainland to within a hundred meters of the island, where the sea floor sloped abruptly downwards. Tyre continued to maintain much of its commercial importance until the Christian era. The presence of the causeway affected water currents nearby, causing sediment to build up, making the connection permanent.


Alexander used the remains of the old city to build the causeway from the mainland to the island where the new Tyre was located.

In 315 BC, Alexander's former general Antigonus began his own siege of Tyre, taking the city a year later.

SOURCE: Tyre, Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Today, fisherman cast their nets around Tyrus, just as God prophesied. That ought to be exciting to you my friend. I mean, if you get on a plane and fly to Tyrus today, you see fishermen casting their nets in Tyrus. It's a desolate area. The little island is desolate. God left Tyre desolate, just as the Bible says in Ezekiel 26:3-5).


Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon was the first of the nations to come against Tyre. Alexander's forces were put together from a coalition of Greek city-states. Each of these was an independent entity and acted as a nation unto itself. Alexander's father, Philip II, unified (by military force) these city-states and the regions of Thrace, Macedonia, and Greece proper under his rule - giving Alexander the unified front he needed to go forth and conquer.

Nevertheless, this was a coalition composed of many nations - and thus fulfills the prophecy.

A Skeptic once objected to this: "They were COALESCED into ONE NATION" - so the prophecy is NOT fulfilled there. A reader however has noted:

In fact Phillip II conquered the Greeks. He was seen by many of them as being a barbaric overlord from the North. On the death of Alexander they went back to being city states, though with a ruler of Macedonian extraction over them for the most part. In addition Alexander's Macedonian army had Cretan mercenary archers, Agrianian mercenary light infantry, led by their king at the outset, but he died before Tyre, Thracian mercenaries and Thesallian cavalry. These are in addition to the fleets of countries that did not like Tyre because of their dominance of the Mediterranean trading.

Moreover, according to the ancient historian Arrian, author of "Anabasi Alexandri," (2.20.1-2), Alexander got some help in attacking Tyre. Having no navy of his own to speak of, he got naval help from his friends in Macedon and from the Phoenician city-states Aradus, Byblos, and Sidon; ships also came from Enylos, Soli and Mallos, Rhodes, Lycia, and Cyprus to join in the fray and help Alexander overcome Tyre [Flem. Tyre, 58]. Each, other than Macedon, was an entirely separate nation from those in Alexander's land forces: a sort of ancient Gulf War Coalition.

SOURCE: Ezekiel's Tyre Prophecy Defended

There is a third prophecy that totally and utterly fails in the 587-centered chronology of Christendom and the apostates.


One year before Jerusalem was destroyed, Jehovah said through the prophet Ezekiel, “I will make the land of Egypt a desolate waste in the midst of desolated lands; and its own cities will become a desolate waste in the very midst of devastated cities for forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations” –Ezekiel 29:12

Yes, Egypt was to become a “desolate waste” with “devastated cities”, and this would last for “forty years”.

The reason Ezekiel gave such a warning at that time was because many Jews thought they could escape the coming calamity by taking refuge in Egypt. Jeremiah warned them not to flee to Egypt for this very reason. “If you yourselves positively set your faces to enter into Egypt... to reside there as aliens, it must also occur that the very sword of which you are afraid will there catch up with you... Do not enter into Egypt... I am sending and I will take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant... And he must come in and strike the land of Egypt.” –Jeremiah 42:15, 16, 19, 43:10-11

The desolation did not happen immediately after Ezekiel or Jeremiah made their prophecies. Some Jews did, in fact, flee to Egypt for safety. However, 16 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, Ezekiel announced that the time had come for Nebuchadnezzar to take Egypt.

In “the twenty-seventh year... the word of Jehovah occurred to me, saying: “Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar himself, the king of Babylon, made his military force perform a great service against Tyre.” For this service, Jehovah rewards the King.

“Here I am giving to Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon the land of Egypt, and he must carry off its wealth and make a big spoil of it and do a great deal of plundering of it; and it must become wages for his military force. As his compensation for service that he did against her I have given him the land of Egypt, because they acted for me”. –Ezekiel 29:17-20

Ezekiel 30:10 confirms that it is Nebuchadnezzar who is to remove all the people from that land. “I will also cause the crowd of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon.”

Remember that Ezekiel earlier said that the desolation of Egypt would last “forty years”. Jehovah also said, “At the end of forty years I shall collect the Egyptians together out of the peoples among whom they will have been scattered, and I will bring back the captive group of the Egyptians; and I will bring them back to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they must become a lowly kingdom.” –Ezekiel 29:13-14

So, from the prophecy we discern the following:

  1. Egypt would be desolated for 40 years (Ezekiel 29:12)
  2. By Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 29:18, 30:10)
  3. It was desolated after Ezekiel's last prophecy against her in his 27th year of exile. (Ezekiel 29:18)
  4. After the 40 years, Egypt will be a lowly Kingdom. (Ezekiel 29:14)
When did this happen? From the Bible record we can only assume it happened shortly after Ezekiel said Nebuchadnezzar was given Egypt as compensation for his attack on Tyre. Interestingly, secular chronology agrees. An ancient clay tablet now residing in the British Museum, known as the Nebuchadnezzar Inscription, talks about Nebuchadnezzar's action against Egypt in his 37th year. That would be two years after Ezekiel said Egypt would be given to Babylon by Jehovah.


Click to enlarge
As you can see from our chart, in the 607-based chronology, Ezekiel makes his prophecy in 590 BCE, and Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year is two years later in 588 BCE when he attacks Egypt. We can assume the Nebuchadnezzar Inscription is correct on this point, because it agrees with our Biblical chronology. So Egypt's 40-year desolation begins in that year.

Counting 40 years hence, we come to the year 548 BCE as the end of Egypt's desolation, when Jehovah would “bring back the captive group of the Egyptians” for them to become a “lowly kingdom”. Indeed, secular chronology also records that the last Babylonian King Nabonidus held an alliance against the Persians with Amasis II, the King of Egypt, in addition to the Lydian Empire. So far from being a competing world power, Egypt is now a “lowly Kingdom” just as the Bible said, resorting to military alliances with its previous opponent.

We can see from the chart that the Bible chronology provided more than enough time for all of these events. Egypt has 40 full years of desolation, with more than enough time afterwards to be repatriated and to forge an alliance with Babylon as the secular records claim.


Click to enlarge
However, as our other chart shows, the 587-based chronology of Egypt's desolation is a total mess.

According to their chronology, the 27th year of Ezekiel's exile (when he made his final prophecy against Egypt) was in 570 BCE. Again, relying on the secular records, Egypt was attacked by Nebuchadnezzar in his 37th year, which is two years later, 568 BCE.

All fine so far. But wait, just 21 years later the secular records say Egypt forged an alliance with Babylon! Worse still, the secular records say Cyrus conquers Babylon just another 8 years after that. The Bible says that Cyrus let all exiles go when he took power. Did he make an exception, that all exiles could leave and be repatriated except for Egyptians? The Bible doesn't mention anything of the sort.

According to the secular chronology, any such desolation could have only lasted 21 years, perhaps 29 years if you toss out the secular evidence that Egypt forged an alliance with the last Babylonian King. So, there was no 40-year desolation of Egypt. If the 587-based chronology is to be believed, the extensive prophecies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel against Egypt failed miserably!

Egypt was not “removed from its soil” for four decades at all, the cities were not “without an inhabitant”, and the country was, in fact, ruled over by a King who was strong enough to forge an alliance with Babylon and Lydia against the Medo-Persians. The prophecies of 40 years of desolation with the country being abandoned, are nothing more than a joke. The country even managed to remain independent from the Persian empire after it later conquered Babylon. Some 40 years of desolation and abandonment that turned out to be! For ways some have tried to explain away the problems, see Appendix G

On the other hand, if one accepts the Bible's internal chronology that 607 is the date of Jerusalem's destruction, the 40 years of Egypt's abandonment fits perfectly. With the 607 date, Egypt has more than enough time to become repatriated and be ruled over by a King, to have a military alliance with Babylon and Lydia, and be strong enough to retain its independence against Medo-Persian rule for 14 years (as secular chronology also states).

What will you accept? The chronology of secular historians who mould the Bible to fit their chronology, making inspired prophecies fail? Or will you accept the complete and harmonious Biblical chronology, which gives us a time-line without contradictions, showing the total fulfillment of every prophecy Jehovah gave us? Will you judge the accuracy of secular chronology against the occasions where it agrees with the Bible, or will you only judge the Bible correct if the secular evidence happens to agree with it?

  • Egypt was to be desolated for 40 years.
  • After repatriation, Egypt had an alliance with the last Babylonian King.
  • Cyrus let all exiles and prisoners free.
  • Only the 607-based chronology allows for this.
 
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mmksparbud

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What about Ezekiel 30:12 - The River Nile never dried up.

It is being fulfilled now.


The Nile and the Euphrates, both are in the news and both are in the Bible; the Nile drying in Egypt and the Euphrates drying up in Iraq. It becomes clear then that a major drought while it effects the world, it concentrates primarily the Muslim world. Experts tell us that the Tigris-Euphrates basin comprising Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and western Iran is in great threat. In this month’s issue of the Journal of the AWWA, US water management expert Roger Patrick assesses the state of the scientific literature on water scarcity in all the world’s main regions, finding that local water shortages are now having “more globalised impacts”.

Patrick’s concern is that the Syria crisis could be a taste of things to come. Citing the findings of the Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) sponsored by NASA and the German Aerospace Centre, he notes that between 2003 and 2009, the Tigris-Euphrates basin comprising Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and western Iran “lost groundwater faster than any other place in the world except northern India”.


Infertile Crescent: Waters run dry in Iraqi marshes



Patrick adds that such civil unrest could signal an Egyptian future of continuing unrest and conflict. He highlights the risk of war between Egypt and Ethiopia due to the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam, threatening to restrict Egypt’s access to the Nile River, which supplies 98% of Egypt’s water supply.

The Grain Issue
Starvation Is Coming To The Muslim World

With Grain consumption which directly supplies nearly half of our calories, today roughly 40% of the world grain harvest comes from irrigated land, thus it comes as no surprise that irrigation expansion has played a central role in tripling the world grain harvest over the last six decades. Nowhere are falling water tables and the shrinkage of irrigated agriculture more dramatic than in Saudi Arabia, a country as water-poor as it is oil-rich. The Saudis announced in early 2008 that, with their aquifers largely depleted, they would reduce wheat planting by one-eighth each year until 2016, when production would completely end. By then Saudi Arabia projects it will be importing some 15m tonnes of wheat, rice, corn and barley to feed its 30 million people. It is the first country to publicly project how aquifer depletion will shrink its grain harvest.



But for Saudi Arabia to get wheat from major producing nations which in the future can only sustain themselves, the issue becomes impossible to solve. In Mexico the demand for water is outstripping supply. Mexico City’s water problems are well known. Rural areas are also suffering. In the agricultural state of Guanajuato, the water table is falling by six feet or more a year. In the north-western wheat-growing state of Sonora, farmers once pumped water from the Hermosillo aquifer at a depth of 40 feet. Today they pump from over 400 feet. Mexico may be near peak water use. Peak grain may be imminent.

In addition to these small and midsize countries, aquifer depletion now also threatens harvests in the big three grain producers – China, India and the US – that together produce half of the world’s grain. The question is not whether water shortages will affect future harvests in these countries, but rather when they will do so.

Among the big three, dependence on irrigation varies widely. Some four-fifths of China’s grain harvest comes from irrigated land, most of it drawing on surface water, principally the Yellow and Yangtze rivers. For India, three-fifths of its grain is irrigated, mostly with groundwater. For the US, only one-fifth of the harvest is from irrigated land. The bulk of the grain crop is rain-fed, produced in the highly productive Midwestern Corn Belt where there is little or no irrigation.

Syria, a country of 22 million people riddled by civil war, is also overpumping its underground water. Its grain production peaked in 2001 and during the years since has dropped a whopping 32%. It, too, is becoming heavily dependent on imported grain.

In neighboring Iraq, grain production has plateaued over the last decade. In 2012 it was dependent on the world market for two-thirds of its consumption. In addition to aquifer depletion, both Syria and Iraq are also suffering from a reduced flow in the Tigris and Euphrates rivers as upstream Turkey claims more water for its own use.

Today, when one turns on the news, we see the troubled country of Yemen, a nation of 24 million people that shares a long border with Saudi Arabia, the water table is falling by roughly six feet a year as water use outstrips aquifer recharge. With one of the world’s fastest-growing populations and with water tables falling throughout the country, Yemen is fast becoming a hydrological basket case. Grain production has fallen by nearly a whopping half over the last 40 years. Yemen has only one year left to starve. By the end of 2015, irrigated fields will be a rarity and the country will be importing virtually all of its grain. Living on borrowed water and borrowed time, Yemen could disintegrate into a group of tribal fiefdoms warring over water. For the first time in history, grain production is dropping in a geographic region with nothing in sight to arrest the decline.

Other countries with much larger populations are also near or beyond peak water. In Iran, a country with 77 million people, one-quarter of its current grain harvest is based on overpumping. With its population growing by a million people per year, it, too, faces a day of reckoning.

Pakistan, with a population of 182 million which most of its irrigation water comes from the Indus river system where Islamabad and Rawalpindi showed a fall in the water table every year and in Balochistan, which borders Afghanistan, water tables around the capital, Quetta, are falling by 11.5 feet per year – pointing to the day when the city will run out of water with six of Balochistan’s seven basins have exhausted their groundwater supplies, leaving their irrigated lands barren.

In a World Bank study, water expert John Briscoe says: “Pakistan is already one of the most water-stressed countries in the world, a situation which is going to degrade into outright water scarcity due to high population growth.” He then notes that “the survival of a modern and growing Pakistan is threatened by water.”

It is no wonder, that with the Muslim world, a society that is already conspiracy theory driven, that Israel will be blamed (see Ezekiel 38) for their stravation which is eminent: “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius …” (Revelation 6:6) The price of wheat is addressed in Scripture at a silver denarius per quart for a reason. In New Testament times, the silver coin weight was 3.65 grams. A U.S. mint quarter has 5.625 grams of silver. If we take a measure of wheat to be a quart (32 ounces) and the price of wheat at an average of $332 per 2000 pounds (metric ton) which is 32 cents a quart in today’s prices, then a silver denarius (3.65 grams) is at $3.24. This would mean that the price of bread will increase to 10 fold. The Euphrates in Iraq will see a similar cataclysmic event as in the Nile. The Turkish Anatolia Project (GAP) is an ambitious development project meant to control, sustain, and distribute the water resources of this river basin from within Turkey, the nation which serves as the source of 88% of the Euphrates’s water and 43% of the Tigris River (Lupu 2002).
 
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mmksparbud

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Seems like a lot of post-hoc rationalisation going on here - where did the Bible mention these by name, and for the anonymous writers writing on behalf of the almighty creator of the universe to only be concerned with their immediate neighborhood is disingenuous to say the least. Why weren't the Chinese, the Mayans, etc. not important enough to be addressed by the God that created everything and loves his creations? Why were they all left to make up their own religions and God(s) that had no crossover with your religion?
so the only thing that's important to your God is this one little tribe occupying little more than a city in size pretty much throughout all of history? That does create more questions than it answers, because it literally excises all the facts of all these other contemporary world powers so it can have a convenient narrative to mislead its followers, yet you then want to assert that for some reason America is mentioned, but not by name, even though it too is not a world power conquering the Middle East? Do you really find that acceptable?


I suggest that you read the book of Daniel for yourself. It is only 12 chapters.
The single most important thing to happen to this world was to happen in Israel, in a manger. That is where the Son of God was to be born--and He was.

Also, isn't Jeffrey Dahmer likely in heaven, enjoying an eternity of bliss with Jesus right now?


I am skipping some things as you keep asking things that you have already asked and I have already answered.
Not to my believes as no one --outside of Moses and Elijah and Enoch --are in heaven yet-not until Christ returns and resurrects us and takes us there.

The original 10 at Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5 were never labelled the Ten Commandments! Instead, the commandments recited in Exodus 34 are the ones labelled the Ten Commandments! Why would your God recite these Ten Commandments for Moses to write down if they weren't what God wanted Moses to write down?

his is at least the 3rd time this has been answered---and the last

"and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest."
They are the very same ones. I will not address this one again.

Doesn't match up. Israel doesn't recognise Jesus as the messiah let alone that he's mediated a new covenant with them, so no covenant has been renewed with Israel as far as Israel knows. It doesn't make sense for a God to say he will be changing the covenant with his chosen tribe of Israel, then forget to tell said tribe - or worse, find the worst way to get his message across and then never follow it up to see that they eventually get the message, even after they establish the nation of Israel again... If your God can't even convince his chosen people that he has a new covenant with them, then how on earth can you be surprised that nobody else outside Israel doesn't believe either?

I already quoted the passages to answer this!! Doesn't seem like you are reading these.
The covenant has been made that was predicted, As to whether Israel AS A NATION accepts it is another matter. Those that accept Jesus are of the new covenant, a a nation the Jews rejected Jesus, God did not reject them as individuals though. He has kept His promises to them and is till doing so. Christians are the new spiritual Israel now.

Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Why are you listening to anything I have to say?? If you would read the bible for yourself, you would have your answers.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I beg to differ - Science has a radical history of success in narrowing in on true things about this reality and it is based on a very solid foundation of evidentialism that demonstrates to be very useful. If we're looking to find out true things about reality, then I'd be interested to hear of a better way to do it. The only way I could see this being a problem is if you're making claims about something that doesn't manifest in reality in any way whatsoever. If something doesn't manifest in reality in some way, then do we really have merit to claim it exists?
Yes, science is very successful, and I do not wish to dispute that. However, the context of 'establishing' what might be humanly known about the Reality of the Christian faith isn't going to come by way of an epistemological framework that is more appropriate to science; furthermore, if you want to think that science is Built purely of Evidences, then be my guest since I'm not actually here to argue about the Nature of Science or about the Philosophy of Science, at least not unless you're wanting to try to pull a 'Jerry Coyne' on me and insist that science actually makes a full-fledged incursion upon any supposed truth values that Christianity might otherwise have [..and here I'm citing Coyne's book, Faith Versus Fact, which I disagree with]. Because, science really doesn't displace the Christian faith when both science and the Christian faith are considered hermeneutically.

Moreover, I'm here to focus upon and discuss the O.T.F., particularly that of John Loftus, such as it is, rather than to also test my view of hermeneutics. We can do that AFTER we look at the merits and demerits of the O.T.F. For the moment, let's try to stick to your evaluative method as we might try to analyze the O.T.F.
No it won't - unless you can determine some way to discern the right "religion" ahead of this process - otherwise your hermeneutics is dead in the water for all its worth. We still need a way to determine which philosophical underpinnings you want to afford it and how it applies equally to all the religious writings out there and not just your particular religious view alone.
If Hermeneutics is dead in the water, then I would think the O.T.F. is as well, or at least it is greatly reduced in its asserted praxis. But that is another tangent I'm not going to get into at the moment; however, it could come up in bits and pieces as we analyze the O.T.F.

Also, just to be more clear so that I don't waste your time---As far as the Christian faith is concerned, I'm not an Evidentialist nor a Foundationalist, although I do value evidence and the attempts to justify one's evaluations within the overall dynamics of holding a Christian faith (or one version of it, anyway). Nor do I really think that there is much in the way of any specific epistemological framework by which one can fully justify or dismiss the Christian faith. No, in this regard, I am rather more on the side of Blaise Pascal.
I'll be interested to see your outlook in these areas then, especially in light of how it applies to discerning the reality of a religion, but I still feel you're looking to overcomplicate a fairly trivial application of an epistemology framework. I'm happy to entertain your ideas if you feel it's required, but I will probe if I feel you're overstepping what I would consider fundamental requirements - even if only so I might understand why.
Well, probe away, but just know that in doing so, I will be likewise be probing and analyzing your probings.
Nope, though they do contribute to a holistic perspective in John's original OTF, I'm still hoping to find what you would consider acceptable evidence, and to what degree or value you'd attribute to the different types of acceptable evidence
We're not here to evaluate my view on evidence that may or may not pertain (or even work against) the Christian faith. You agreed that we'd focus upon the O.T.F. That's what we're doing. If you want to look at these other things, they'll have to wait to come up serendipitously as we, together, look at the O.T.F.
I figured this to be the case given we weren't discussing the content or form of the Bible just yet, but I'm still not sure how even philosophical hermeneutics would apply - feel free to present a case for it, I guess - same thing though, I'll be asking questions along the way, even if so I might understand your reasons...
...the answers were already given by Jans Zimmerman. Did you not view the video I offered?
Well, I'm talking about the basal epistemological position we have before we start. Magnabosco's work is probably a more apt position, but even so, we're pushing past his glass ceiling and exploring the merits of (in this case, your) religious positions rather than just reducing from 100% conviction in a deeply held belief. This still requires an epistemological foundation, and I guess I'm interested to find out about how you view evidence so we can start exploring. If you want to apply philosophical hermeneutics, then I'm happy to start there with you to see what benefits (if any) it brings.
No, we're discussing the merits of the O.T.F; and since the Christian faith is the target of Loftus' O.T.F., as well as that of the S.E.s, I'm sure Christian epistemic motifs (whether they be mine or those which I don't agree with myself) will come up in the process...as we go through the O.T.F.

You see, one of my working axioms is that "Sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Peacock." It could even be sauce for frog legs----that is, for those who so have such an appetite.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Exo 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Yes, yes, there are contradictions as it goes on at Exodus 34:10 to describe how God tells Moses he will make a new covenant and threatens everyone who consorts with other Gods, then tells Moses to "Observe thou that which I command thee this day:" (as in, not what he said the last day Moses was there, but what he's about to say...), then goes onto cite commandments until Exodus 34:26, then at Exodus 34:27 he affirms what he just said was a covenant with Moses and Israel- "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel." - Then Exodus 28 describes Moses writing the words of the covenant, calling them the ten commandments - "And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." - it says it right there!

So again,
Exodus 34:10 - God tells Moses "Behold, I make a new covenant"
Exodus 34:11 -26 - God recites covenant commandments
Exodus 34:27 - God affirms he just made the covenant with Moses and Israel
Exodus 34:28 - describes Moses writing the words of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments over 40 days and 40 nights without food & water.

If you don't agree with this plain reading, then please tell me your interpretation of Exodus 34:10-28.
Well, they don't have any DNA from Adam and Eve or from Noah and his children. Theirs would have been far more diverse. They had in them all that was need for all the different races--and no--of course the bible doesn't say so!
No, what you stated here just shows your ignorance of how genetics and DNA work. We don't need to have DNA from Adam & Eve, or Noah, or whomever to know we didn't come from just two humans 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. Our last common female ancestor is around 150,000 years ago and our last male common ancestor is around 180,000 to 250,000 years ago. That's what science has been able to determine from the evidence. Cheetahs did go through a bottleneck around 15,000-30,000 years back, and this is blatantly obvious when we look at their DNA. They are dangerously inbred from what we can determine to be likely just one mating pair of ancestors that survived as the progenitors of the entire extant species of Cheetahs.
No--He just is wanting us to have faith in Him. Don't have it?--oh, well, I do. Adam and Eve had everything your kids do. They chose to disregard His word, that caused the separation. He can't show Himself to us--we would die immediately. You have all the same facts as millions of others have had---as I have had---what you do with them is up to you.
What facts? What facts do you have for your God that any other religion doesn't have for their God(s)? Also, are you saying that were your God real, that he couldn't unequivocally let us know he exists, like he supposedly did with people in the Bible?
He gave you a brain--if you really want to know--ask Him.
You say that like I haven't asked him, or whatever the creator entity is if not your God.
You can do the same thing I did and millions of others have done--compare.
Which I am still doing - and I want to know how you come to your God, and why you are so convinced of that God and none others - I do the same thing wJust as millions have the same information you do, the same Vedas, and they have chosen it over yours -he only conclusion I can come to is that you're all the same in how you come to your belief, and why you're all so convinced of it - and that's because it seems you don't have a sufficient epistemology to discern true things from false things. You all just have a feeling, and assume the God of your region is the one true God, then confirmation bias sets in.
There are millions that have the same information you do, the same bible, and they have chosen it over the others--if you don't see it--it is your choice.
Just as millions have the same information you do, the same Qur'An, and they have chosen it over yours - Just as millions have the same information you do, the same Vedas, and they have chosen it over yours - Just as millions have the same information you do, the same Tripitaka, Mahayana Sutras and the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and they have chosen it over yours -I can't help but wonder why you don't see these others given there are many more millions believing all these other ones and not yours?
And I never said He didn't talk to me directly. I said I do not hear an audible voice---I have this thought--it is as though He is talking, but it is not audible, just in my head. Like when you hear a voice that says don't go there, don't do that, or run away---same thing.
Right, but these are intuitions and inward thoughts, very natural and well-understood phenomena of biological systems - not the product of a God. If as you say, you studied psychology, surely, you'd know this? How do you attribute another believer's thoughts in the Hindu religion when they state their Gods are guiding them through vivid thoughts and dreams? Are they lying?
I don't know what originals there are of others--I know that originally, everything was verbal communication. It was a while before they needed to write things down. The first people were not some lowlife forms sitting around the fire grunting and chewing on raw bones---these people were created perfect, they had brains that were far beyond ours. They were, essentially, total savants, without any idiot part. However, intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing.
The entire human race has already been mapped back to a population that migrated out of Africa around 60,000 to 70,000 years ago, with several further migrations since then. Map of Human Migration - several independent lines of scientific inquiry including genetics and paleontology corroborate this.
Yes-He is able. and you are just as able to totally block Him out if you want.
so I'm more powerful than your God?
He is not going to force you to believe.
He wouldn't have to. I would believe because he's real, not because I'm "forced"...
He is not going to force you to listen to Him. I can not know what you have experienced, for all I know, He has spoken to you countless times, and you have turned away.
If a supernatural creator of the Universe spoke to me, I'd know about it.
Again, you have the same information millions of others have had---Your choice.
Just as I have the same information millions of others have had in other religions too, your choice to go to their Hells too. I'm still undecided.
I do know this

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Why would I listen to what the Bible says? We still haven't any good reason to think it isn't anything more than a book written by fallible and anonymous authors.
We hear and see what we want to. You have to read the bible for yourself and make your own decision.
When we can determine it's the word of a God, then that's when to consider what it says, and not before. I refer you to the discrepancies of Exodus 34 as an example of an un-God-like writing (your explanation notwithstanding, of course).
Well---point Him out to me.
Well, none (yours included) have stood out from the crowd, but here's a short list:

Currently worshipped:
El, Elohim, YHWH, Jehova, Jesus, Allah, Odin, Buddha, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna,

Mostly dead, but still worshipped by some:
Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Venus, Thanos, Horus, Prometheus, Thor, Loki,

Pretty much dead and not worshipped today:
Mithra, Isis, Athena, Apollo, Lilith, Hades, Aphrodite, Cronus, Artemis, Anubis, Osiris, Ares, Amon, Atlas

Not an exhaustive list though... : Spiritual Beings and Deities - All Topics | Britannica.com
If you call this better---I have no idea what you are looking at.
Are you Serious?? Are you saying it's not possible to be better than to commit genocide right down to every last baby and beast of a nation?

We have a record of your God (in his own book, mind you) wiping out entire nations & races, even going to a special place in some cases to ensure the infants are "run through by the sword". This is a barbaric and hideous warcrime and of those who attempted to do that in the modern era, have in fact been rightfully labelled criminals of the highest order and for the most part, have been brought to justice due to our collective humanity that thankfully is much better than that of your genocidal God of the old testament.

Surely, you're better than that?
I there some sort of significant difference that you see in created perfect or created perfect in thy ways???
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
I see he was created perfect--what do you see?
I see that it doesn't say how he was created, so certainly doesn't say he was created perfect - what it says is that "he was perfect in his actions until he was found to have imperfections".
As for what Lucifer and those other angels felt--all I can say is Lucifer was/is very cunning--if you want to know how he lured them away from God, read the story of Absalom--2 Sanuel 13-15--esp 15.
He wanted to be worshipped, he wanted to be God, he maligned God's character slowly and insinuated that he would do a better job than he--sort of all the things you've been saying. They chose to believe him. Yah--you could say Lucifer was a very clever used car salesman! No one knows how long he was doing this, he could have been going along just fine for millions of years and then he started to look only at himself.
I'll have a read then...
It may seem crazy, but there are people who feel that living in heaven would be horribly boring and they don't want to go there. They feel that life without drinking sex, and inappropriate content and doing all sorts of evil things would not be worth living. And there are those that love to kill, rape and steal.
I imagine it'd be hard to think about a bodyless experience if we're supposed to be spirits on getting to heaven - if we still have a body, then I imagine we'd have fleshy needs that still have to be fulfilled - this would be bad for heaven given God doesn't have a great track record with fleshy forms and free will.
The difference is, all of those beings in heaven were sinless. They had never been exposed to sin -- Those others were steeped in it, and the Israelites had spent over 400 years in Egypt and seen a lot of evil--they needed a little fear in them!
I don't get the difference - if anything, having a heaven full of sinless entities that have never seen sin, would be a bigger reason to be definitively harsh - to set a one-time example for what would happen if sin were to occur again. Problem Solved! No Sin for Everyone (us included), Ever!
Again---it is your choice--you have the same info I do.
...and the same info the Hindus do, and the same info as the Muslims do, and the same info the Bhuddists do, etc.
Wrong----I left God for over 30 years---wanted nothing to do with Him and told Him so.
I don't get why you'd be talking to him if you didn't believe he existed... that doesn't make sense - Did you believe he existed but didn't want anything to do with him, or did you not believe a God existed and were just talking to yourself?
I did investigate other religions, I read everything out there -- I even got into Tarot card reading, had my own deck and was just learning when I came back to God and threw them out. I can not believe in reincarnation, I can't believe in a whole bunch of weird gods as in Hindu
Okay, perhaps we can go somewhere with this - Why can't you believe in reincarnation and/or weird Gods, what was it that made that proposition unbelievable, but yet you find no problem believing in a triune God that existed forever, talking snakes, talking donkeys, the entire universe being miracled out of nothing about 6,000 to 10,000 years ago, resurrection, hundreds of people raised from the dead and walking around Jerusalem visiting their relatives, etc?
I just couldn't buy any of those and I came back to the bible. Then I had to choose which denomination. I did that by deciding who followed the bible the closest. I made my decision, have never doubted it or regretted it.
so there's a whole bunch of denominations who worship the same God you do, but they're wrong? Perhaps we can go somewhere with this too - why are THEY wrong when they have the same information you do AND they pray to the same God you do too? are you saying they don't follow the bible as stringently as you do, including all those levitical laws you seem to think don't apply anymore?
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes, yes, there are contradictions as it goes on at Exodus 34:10 to describe how God tells Moses he will make a new covenant and threatens everyone who consorts with other Gods, then tells Moses to "Observe thou that which I command thee this day:" (as in, not what he said the last day Moses was there, but what he's about to say...), then goes onto cite commandments until Exodus 34:26, then at Exodus 34:27 he affirms what he just said was a covenant with Moses and Israel- "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel." - Then Exodus 28 describes Moses writing the words of the covenant, calling them the ten commandments - "And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." - it says it right there!

So again,
Exodus 34:10 - God tells Moses "Behold, I make a new covenant"
Exodus 34:11 -26 - God recites covenant commandments
Exodus 34:27 - God affirms he just made the covenant with Moses and Israel
Exodus 34:28 - describes Moses writing the words of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments over 40 days and 40 nights without food & water.

If you don't agree with this plain reading, then please tell me your interpretation of Exodus 34:10-28.

If you are in doubt as to the 10 ---ask any Jew. They will recite Ex. 20--that is what God rewrote and those are the ones that were in the Ark. You are, of course, free to have your own version.

Exo 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

34 is just an overview--

No, what you stated here just shows your ignorance of how genetics and DNA work. We don't need to have DNA from Adam & Eve, or Noah, or whomever to know we didn't come from just two humans 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. Our last common female ancestor is around 150,000 years ago and our last male common ancestor is around 180,000 to 250,000 years ago. That's what science has been able to determine from the evidence. Cheetahs did go through a bottleneck around 15,000-30,000 years back, and this is blatantly obvious when we look at their DNA. They are dangerously inbred from what we can determine to be likely just one mating pair of ancestors that survived as the progenitors of the entire extant species of Cheetahs.

You are showing you ignorance as to the power of Gpd. What He says is. Adam and Eve and those first people were different from us. Adam and Eve carried all the needed info in their DNA to populate the earth. You only know what science is able to determine today with what evidence they have today.

What facts? What facts do you have for your God that any other religion doesn't have for their God(s)? Also, are you saying that were your God real, that he couldn't unequivocally let us know he exists, like he supposedly did with people in the Bible?

You have the bible--same one that millions have used -- same one that I use. Don't want to read it for yourself, don't want to believe it?? then don't. Millions have believed with just that.

You say that like I haven't asked him, or whatever the creator entity is if not your God.

Next time you ask---listen. I can't read your mind. He may have talked to you many times and you refused to listen. At the end--no one will be able to say--not fair--you never talked to me---come judgement day, no one will be able to lie to themselves anymore.


Which I am still doing - and I want to know how you come to your God, and why you are so convinced of that God and none others - I do the same thing wJust as millions have the same information you do, the same Vedas, and they have chosen it over yours -he only conclusion I can come to is that you're all the same in how you come to your belief, and why you're all so convinced of it - and that's because it seems you don't have a sufficient epistemology to discern true things from false things. You all just have a feeling, and assume the God of your region is the one true God, then confirmation bias sets in.

And that is what we believe about people like you--you do not have the Holy Spirit to lead you because you refuse to believe. You only want to believe in your so called science and can not discern His voice anymore.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Just as millions have the same information you do, the same Qur'An, and they have chosen it over yours - Just as millions have the same information you do, the same Vedas, and they have chosen it over yours - Just as millions have the same information you do, the same Tripitaka, Mahayana Sutras and the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and they have chosen it over yours -I can't help but wonder why you don't see these others given there are many more millions believing all these other ones and not yours?

No--they haven't chosen it over mine---they have known no other. There are many, many Muslims that are coming to Christ. India is the same---they do not know about Jesus and that is why we are there, we have missionaries there and many are now turning to Christ also--same in Thailand and every other country.

Right, but these are intuitions and inward thoughts, very natural and well-understood phenomena of biological systems - not the product of a God. If as you say, you studied psychology, surely, you'd know this? How do you attribute another believer's thoughts in the Hindu religion when they state their Gods are guiding them through vivid thoughts and dreams? Are they lying?

No, not lying. Satan works hard to keep them ignorant of the true God that is why we go to them--give them a choice.

so I'm more powerful than your God?

Only until judgement day. And only because He will not force you---He gives you the right to say no to Him.

If a supernatural creator of the Universe spoke to me, I'd know about it.

Yes---that is why no one will be able to say He didn't say anything to them. You have His word--the bible.

Just as I have the same information millions of others have had in other religions too, your choice to go to their Hells too. I'm still undecided.

There is only one hell. Hope you'll not be in it.

Why would I listen to what the Bible says? We still haven't any good reason to think it isn't anything more than a book written by fallible and anonymous authors.

Then you are willingly saying no to God.

When we can determine it's the word of a God, then that's when to consider what it says, and not before. I refer you to the discrepancies of Exodus 34 as an example of an un-God-like writing (your explanation notwithstanding, of course).

Unless you read it--you can not know.

Well, none (yours included) have stood out from the crowd, but here's a short list:

Currently worshipped:
El, Elohim, YHWH, Jehova, Jesus, Allah, Odin, Buddha, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna,

Mostly dead, but still worshipped by some:
Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Venus, Thanos, Horus, Prometheus, Thor, Loki,

Pretty much dead and not worshipped today:
Mithra, Isis, Athena, Apollo, Lilith, Hades, Aphrodite, Cronus, Artemis, Anubis, Osiris, Ares, Amon, Atlas

Not an exhaustive list though... : Spiritual Beings and Deities - All Topics | Britannica.com

Only God there is El, Elohim, YHWH, Jehova, Jesus


Are you Serious?? Are you saying it's not possible to be better than to commit genocide right down to every last baby and beast of a nation?

We have a record of your God (in his own book, mind you) wiping out entire nations & races, even going to a special place in some cases to ensure the infants are "run through by the sword". This is a barbaric and hideous warcrime and of those who attempted to do that in the modern era, have in fact been rightfully labelled criminals of the highest order and for the most part, have been brought to justice due to our collective humanity that thankfully is much better than that of your genocidal God of the old testament.

Surely, you're better than that?

Already answered several times. He will be wiping out a lot more come judgement day----for He will be wiping out all sin, which means sinners.


I see that it doesn't say how he was created, so certainly doesn't say he was created perfect - what it says is that "he was perfect in his actions until he was found to have imperfections".


No, He doesn't say how anything was created--just that they were created. And it says he was created perfect in his ways---clear enough.

I imagine it'd be hard to think about a bodyless experience if we're supposed to be spirits on getting to heaven - if we still have a body, then I imagine we'd have fleshy needs that still have to be fulfilled - this would be bad for heaven given God doesn't have a great track record with fleshy forms and free will.

It won't be bodiless -- Jesus had a body after His resurrection, He ate, He showed the disciples His wounds, He drank. We will have changed bodies, but they will still be bodies. They will be immortal ones then. The decision for God will have been made by the ssved then--sl there will be no more sin.
Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

I don't get the difference - if anything, having a heaven full of sinless entities that have never seen sin, would be a bigger reason to be definitively harsh - to set a one-time example for what would happen if sin were to occur again. Problem Solved! No Sin for Everyone (us included), Ever!


That is what happens from here on out---no one will wonder if Lucifer was right---which would've happened if He had just killed Him. There was no way for them to make a comparison---there is now---won't happen again.


...and the same info the Hindus do, and the same info as the Muslims do, and the same info the Bhuddists do, etc.

No----it is totally different info.

I don't get why you'd be talking to him if you didn't believe he existed... that doesn't make sense - Did you believe he existed but didn't want anything to do with him, or did you not believe a God existed and were just talking to yourself?

I always believed He existed---I was just angry at Him.


Okay, perhaps we can go somewhere with this - Why can't you believe in reincarnation and/or weird Gods, what was it that made that proposition unbelievable, but yet you find no problem believing in a triune God that existed forever, talking snakes, talking donkeys, the entire universe being miracled out of nothing about 6,000 to 10,000 years ago, resurrection, hundreds of people raised from the dead and walking around Jerusalem visiting their relatives, etc?

No, we can't get anywhere with this. Because the answer is---I just don't believe it!! And, quite frankly, I'd rather be dead than to keep coming back as some sort of bug or whatever. And the Hindu gods--and all those other gods are even meaner than what you feel our God is.

so there's a whole bunch of denominations who worship the same God you do, but they're wrong? Perhaps we can go somewhere with this too - why are THEY wrong when they have the same information you do AND they pray to the same God you do too? are you saying they don't follow the bible as stringently as you do, including all those levitical laws you seem to think don't apply anymore?

It is a matter of how some words are interpreted from the original language. Some feel they can follow tradition above the word of the bible, or in addition to. Some will choose the teachings of a man over what the bible says. If I am going to go with the bible, than that is what I am going with for my basic information. The opinions of man may be interesting, but I will base my core doctrines on what the bible says.
 
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