The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

childeye 2 said:

Why is rebellion against God counted as proof of free will rather than proof of ignorance?

Because they had no choice "if" they want to live. Respectfully, the bottom line is God is either to be trusted or distrusted. To even ponder that there's an option in the matter, is to ponder that you know better than God.

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If they have a choice to live or not it’s still a choice of their own free will.

BNR32FAN said:

If they have a choice to live or not it’s still a choice of their own free will.

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The question is: "Is their a God who already knew all about the choice you were making or were gonna make, from long, long ago or not...?"

God Bless!

BNR32FAN said:

If they have a choice to live or not it’s still a choice of their own free will.

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But since they don't have any choice "if" they want to live, we're left defining a free will as a will wanting to die. This is the logical outcome that arises when we use a choice of rebellion against God as proof of a free will, rather than proof of ignorance.

Please note that I asked this question in post #100: Why is rebellion against God counted as proof of free will rather than proof of ignorance?
I also said that, the bottom line is God is either to be trusted or distrusted.

childeye 2 said:

That's interesting. I'm not sure, but your definition of free will is not quite the same as other more common definitions I've heard, since you say they have a free will but then chose not to use it.

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I think I meant something slightly different than how your expressing it. As my statement was, A person's PRIDE can continually harden their own heart but in that sense....they've worked against their own freedom or the degree they have it. What I think I'm saying is they have freedom of will to choose PRIDE. When they do though they truly start loosing freedom of life and they go into bondage. The more they walk in PRIDE they become more prone to do so in the future.

Such is the definition of a habit we could say. There is a saying...plant a thought....reap and action....plant an action....reap a habit.....plant a habit....reap a character....plant a character....reap a destiny. If one reaches the place where whatever is one's character it is most difficult although not impossible to reverse the course....but they must start back with the thoughts.

childeye 2 said:

I also agree that the term free is relative, and also that in linguistics all such subjective and relative terms derive their fluid value of meaning in the degrees from that which they are relative to and qualified by.

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Good statement. Isn't that why it's so difficult to get people on the same page in agreeing just what is truth with these concepts? Everyone tends to define terms within whatever perimeters they personally feel something is meant. A degree of freedom isn't FREE WILL for the way some look at it. To others it is. Who is right? Well....they both can be really.

Neogaia777 said:

The question is: "Is their a God who already knew all about the choice you were making or were gonna make, from long, long ago or not...?"

God Bless!

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Absolutely God has foreseen all. That’s why the names are written in the book of life before creation.

childeye 2 said:

But since they don't have any choice "if" they want to live, we're left defining a free will as a will wanting to die. This is the logical outcome that arises when we use a choice of rebellion against God as proof of a free will, rather than proof of ignorance.

Please note that I asked this question in post #100: Why is rebellion against God counted as proof of free will rather than proof of ignorance?
I also said that, the bottom line is God is either to be trusted or distrusted.

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Yes but even still there are more who choose death than life.

Bobber said:

I'm saying is they have freedom of will to choose PRIDE.


Good statement. Isn't that why it's so difficult to get people on the same page in agreeing just what is truth with these concepts? Everyone tends to define terms within whatever perimeters they personally feel something is meant. A degree of freedom isn't FREE WILL for the way some look at it. To others it is. Who is right? Well....they both can be really.

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Yes, it's difficult if not impossible to pin down exactly what free will means. Apart from the coherent definition I offered, it looks like circular reasoning to me; Which is why I do not see that it even exists, particularly in a moral/immoral application. The problem is that free will becomes delusive or illusory when it is understood by so many to simply mean to choose, since a choice is going to be inevitable, regardless of whether or not we are willing or unwilling to make it or not make it, (all in bold was a self evident statement). Despite the unproved assertion that free will exists and is not imaginary, people use it to find reason to cast blame.

So for example, you speak of believing in a freedom of will to choose pride. Which is somewhat different than saying a freedom of will to be proud. I do not recall ever being free from both humility and pride so as to choose between the two. As scripture says, "pride goeth before a fall", so pride to me is a blindness from where you don't see a fall coming. Nor do I decide to be proud and suddenly I feel proud. I would guess that what you mean to say is that one could have been humble about something but wasn't. But where is the evidence that he could have been humble? And it makes no sense to say that "he could have been humble if he wanted to", since that is a circular reasoning not dissimilar from "he could have done it because he could."

Which brings me to a question that I have for you, assuming that you're a cooperative type of person willing to choose, or choosing to will to answer it. So I ask you, honestly, Are you testifying that you personally, have experienced a state of existence where you saw pride and humility being placed before you as a choice between two available options, and you then weighed the value and outcome of both through mental deliberation, and selected pride to be the better choice, and immediately after deciding you instantly felt proud?

BNR32FAN said:

Absolutely God has foreseen all. That’s why the names are written in the book of life before creation.

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Then how can there be choice...?

Neogaia777 said:

Then how can there be choice...?

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Search the semantics. There's always a choice even when pre-determined. If I am sitting, I'm not standing. If I'm doing nothing, I'm not doing something. I don't think there is anything that cannot be perceived as a choice so long as a person is not dead.

In Numbers 11 - seventy elders of Israel were clothed in The Holy Spirit to help assist Moses rule and direct Israel.

Yet none of those 70 elders entered the promised land because of disobedience...

Moses was clothed in The Holy Spirit - yet he didn’t enter either because of disobedience at Kadesh striking the rock....

Was this a failure of The Holy Spirit? No. It was a failure of human will choosing to over-rule God’s Holy Spirit....

Faith is choosing to be obedient when your emotions and human nature are fighting you.

Ron Gurley said:

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

"Free will" and SALVATION by GRACE through spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF (John 3+Eph.2)

Man's spiritual "Free Will"
...VERSUS...
the spiritual perfect WILL of the TRI-UNE GOD

In Genesis, Man had the "free will" to OBEY...remain in Eden...spiritually walk and talk with his UNSEEN God.
...VERSUS...
do his own thing...follow his selfish and natural tendancy to turn from God...DISOBEY

In the gospels / NT:

1."free will" BEFORE "salvation"...

The spirit of Man can ACCEPT or REJECT the DRAWING/CALLING of God.
...the offer of the gift of undeserved spiritual Grace/Love/Mercy
through spirit-led Faith/Belief.

2. "free will" AFTER "salvation"...

a. guided into spiritual "good works"
...VERSUS...
following the 1. world (chaos) and 2. the old "ways of the flesh" (sin nature) and 3. the temptations/attacks of spirit beings: devil/demons.

b. Be filled with / controlled by / pray and worship / walk in THE SPIRIT
...VERSUS...
grieve / quench / do not follow THE SPIRIT's guidance and comfort.

God gives Man the opportunities to CHOOSE...allowing the spiritual freedom to choose...free to follow the will of God...or not.

The following concepts are difficult to understand and perhaps logically contradictory....BOTH EXIST!...

A. The Sovreignty of an all-everything perfect God, a SPIRIT!
...VERSUS...
B. the spiritual exercise of the "free will" of Man (and angels!) inside God's will

ACCEPT...RECEIVE...BELIEVE...etc...OR...NOT!

John 1: 12-13 (NASB)...Will of Man VS the Will of God ~= "free will"
But as many as RECEIVED Him,(spiritually born again from above)
to them He gave the right to become children of God,
even to those who BELIEVE in His name,
who were BORN,
not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh
nor of the will of man,
but (spiritually BORN) of (the Will of) God.

John 3: 11-12 ...Accept Jesus' "testimony"..OR...NOT~= "free will"
11 Truly, truly, I say to you,
we speak of what we know
and testify of what we have seen,
and you do not ACCEPT our testimony.
12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe,
how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

John 8 : 31-38 (NASB)...Jesus: FOLLOW...OR...NOT ~= "free will"
...“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”...( to follow the will of God)

1 Thessalonians 2:13 ...Accept God's "word"...or...NOT ~= "free will"
For this reason we also constantly thank God
that when you received the "word of God" which you heard from us,
you ACCEPTED it not as the word of men, but for what it really is,
the "word of God", which also performs its work in you who BELIEVE.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a "natural man" (unsaved) does not ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually appraised.(discerned)

Hebrews 10: 31;35-36(NASB)...Jesus the Christ ...or... Judgment? ~= "free will"
It is a terrifying thing (for unbelievers) to fall into the hands of the living God....
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence (in a believer's salvation),
which has a great reward.For you have need of endurance,
so that when you have done the WILL of GOD,
you may receive what was promised. (joy!)...John 15!

1 John 2: 15-17(NASB)...John: Do Not Love the World...Love God ~= "free will"
Do not love the world nor the things in the world.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world,
the lust of the flesh and
the lust of the eyes and
the boastful pride of life,
is not from the Father, but is from the world.
The world is passing away, and also its lusts;
but the one who does the WILL of GOD lives forever.

Click to expand...

Ron Gurley said:

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

"Free will" and SALVATION by GRACE through spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF (John 3+Eph.2)

Man's spiritual "Free Will"
...VERSUS...
the spiritual perfect WILL of the TRI-UNE GOD

In Genesis, Man had the "free will" to OBEY...remain in Eden...spiritually walk and talk with his UNSEEN God.
...VERSUS...
do his own thing...follow his selfish and natural tendancy to turn from God...DISOBEY

In the gospels / NT:

1."free will" BEFORE "salvation"...

The spirit of Man can ACCEPT or REJECT the DRAWING/CALLING of God.
...the offer of the gift of undeserved spiritual Grace/Love/Mercy
through spirit-led Faith/Belief.

2. "free will" AFTER "salvation"...

a. guided into spiritual "good works"
...VERSUS...
following the 1. world (chaos) and 2. the old "ways of the flesh" (sin nature) and 3. the temptations/attacks of spirit beings: devil/demons.

b. Be filled with / controlled by / pray and worship / walk in THE SPIRIT
...VERSUS...
grieve / quench / do not follow THE SPIRIT's guidance and comfort.

God gives Man the opportunities to CHOOSE...allowing the spiritual freedom to choose...free to follow the will of God...or not.

The following concepts are difficult to understand and perhaps logically contradictory....BOTH EXIST!...

A. The Sovreignty of an all-everything perfect God, a SPIRIT!
...VERSUS...
B. the spiritual exercise of the "free will" of Man (and angels!) inside God's will

ACCEPT...RECEIVE...BELIEVE...etc...OR...NOT!

John 1: 12-13 (NASB)...Will of Man VS the Will of God ~= "free will"
But as many as RECEIVED Him,(spiritually born again from above)
to them He gave the right to become children of God,
even to those who BELIEVE in His name,
who were BORN,
not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh
nor of the will of man,
but (spiritually BORN) of (the Will of) God.

John 3: 11-12 ...Accept Jesus' "testimony"..OR...NOT~= "free will"
11 Truly, truly, I say to you,
we speak of what we know
and testify of what we have seen,
and you do not ACCEPT our testimony.
12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe,
how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

John 8 : 31-38 (NASB)...Jesus: FOLLOW...OR...NOT ~= "free will"
...“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”...( to follow the will of God)

1 Thessalonians 2:13 ...Accept God's "word"...or...NOT ~= "free will"
For this reason we also constantly thank God
that when you received the "word of God" which you heard from us,
you ACCEPTED it not as the word of men, but for what it really is,
the "word of God", which also performs its work in you who BELIEVE.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a "natural man" (unsaved) does not ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually appraised.(discerned)

Hebrews 10: 31;35-36(NASB)...Jesus the Christ ...or... Judgment? ~= "free will"
It is a terrifying thing (for unbelievers) to fall into the hands of the living God....
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence (in a believer's salvation),
which has a great reward.For you have need of endurance,
so that when you have done the WILL of GOD,
you may receive what was promised. (joy!)...John 15!

1 John 2: 15-17(NASB)...John: Do Not Love the World...Love God ~= "free will"
Do not love the world nor the things in the world.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world,
the lust of the flesh and
the lust of the eyes and
the boastful pride of life,
is not from the Father, but is from the world.
The world is passing away, and also its lusts;
but the one who does the WILL of GOD lives forever.

Click to expand...

Nothing in the Bible teaches us that man loses his freewill to choose either righteousness or unrighteousness.



Don’t you realize that grace frees you to choose your own master? But choose carefully, for you surrender yourself to become a servant—bound to the one you choose to obey. If you choose to love sin, it will become your master, and it will own you and reward you with death. But if you choose to love and obey God, he will lead you into perfect righteousness. Romans 6:16 TPT




JLB

Grace unties us from the conundrum Jesus presents in the parable of the Good Samaritan....

The priest and the Levite could not help the man because their ceremonial purity required them to stay clean to do their duties.... The Law only allowed exception to priests in the case of a father, brother, or son....

The Samaritan was under no compulsion for ceremonial cleanliness - so he was free to be merciful...

The point there was that not only were priests and Levites doing God’s service - Samaritans were too....

Jesus illustrated similar by healing lepers. How can you lawfully touch a leper to cleanse him? Touching lepers makes you unclean..... There’s a conundrum.. Well - it’s fine if he is not a leper any more...

Or being both merciful AND just at the same time... Our legal system errs either on one side or another. We allow 100% of the harm to the victim without any restoration (not merciful or just). We put the criminal in jail to quarantine them (not merciful or just either). Where Jesus restores the maimed man - restoring the lost body parts and undoing the harm done (justice and mercy at the same time).... And we see Jesus cure the heart of the greedy tax collector who then goes on to offer to restore any taxes illegally collected. (justice and mercy at the same time).

Whether one chooses to be a follower when offered the opportunity, or chooses to ignore the offering, that IS "Free will". I do not subscribe to any 'doctrines of men' simply because they have been introduced into 'religion'. What I believe is what has been revealed to me through direct revelation through the Word of God. Whether in direct discernment, or the words offered in the Bible that are simple to understand once one is 'born again'.

I cannot speak for 'all men'. But I can offer this: 'the truth is the truth as it pertains to 'all men'. Whether all men find it has no bearing on it's existence in what God reveals. All 'truth' that exists in the universe is the 'same truth'. We are not all capable of discovering 'alternate truths'. For alternate 'truths' only exist when men do not actually 'understand THE truth'.

Example: one plus one plus one equals THREE. Anyone that doesn't agree with this hasn't found or accepted THE 'truth'.

What this means to me is this: whatever 'truth' exists, it is the SAME truth to anyone that understands it. While all men will not understand an EQUAL AMOUNT of 'truth', what they do understand will be the SAME to 'all men'. God's 'truth' doesn't 'change'. His instruction over time may, but the foundation will never change.

So, if one man finds a 'truth', it will be the same truth all other men understand that understand THAT 'truth'.

Reading what has been offered by 'men' of the past, whether considered 'church fathers' or merely one recording what they believe, it is my opinion that not a single one has obtained 'the truth'. They understand SOME truths, but each falls short of 'the' truth.

My point is this: I rarely read what others of the past have offered. For everything we read has the potential to influence what we believe. So I do my best to stick with the Bible. If there is something that God wants to reveal, I am quite confident He is able to do it through His Word. The words of men are untrustworthy. The words of the 'best men' are untrustworthy.

Anyone that tries to accuse me of believing as others because of 'past' writings or teachings is incorrect in their assumption. If I believe as 'others of the past', it is due to 'finding' the same 'truth' that they did. Not through 'their' writings or teachings. My understanding is independent from the 'teachings of men'. Yet there are many men of the past that discovered, (had revealed to them), the same truths. Whatever I believe it didn't COME from the writings of 'men of the past' other than the one's who penned what is offered in the Bible.

What I believe about 'freewill' didn't come from the beliefs of others, it came from what I have learned through The Bible and whatever I believe the Holy Spirit has revealed.

The concept that we have 'no choice' is about as unBiblical as anything I have witnessed. Yes, if you were to choose to pick individual scriptures and use them out of context, you could certainly come to such a conclusion. The Calvinist have been teaching it for quite a while.

But if take the Bible as a whole, it clearly teaches that we possess 'freewill'. Heck, the word wouldn't even exist if it had NO meaning. God didn't MAKE the apostles 'followers'. Peter clearly demonstrated this over and over again. God revealed Himself and the apostles, most of them, could no longer do anything BUT 'believe'. But their 'following' was a 'choice' opted through FREEWILL.

Are there limits to our 'freewill'? Absolutely. Things as simple as our 'character' can limit our choices. Our experiences make us MOSTLY who we are. And what we learn doesn't always have the ability to overcome our 'character'. That means what we KNOW to be 'right' doesn't always DICTATE that we 'choose' that path instead of another.

But it is still our 'choice' to exercise 'freewill' or allow something else to determine our choices. What matters about this issue is this: no matter what path we are on, we ALWAYS have the ability to 'change it'. Even when we don't BELIEVE we have the 'choice', it's there.

God is able to forgive REGARDLESS. Whether He does or not is UP TO US. We cannot be taught to forgive ENDLESSLY if God isn't able to forgive ENDLESSLY. In other words, love is a CHOICE. Whether we exercise it, or not, is a CHOICE. And we have 'freewill' to choose one way or the other.

What we BELIEVE exists through 'freewill'. Not what we KNOW, but what we BELIEVE. That is made perfectly transparent by the fact that people can believe 'anything'. People are trudging through the woods right now looking for Bigfoot. There are people that insist that they believe in aliens, ghosts, and that the earth is flat. And their beliefs are nothing other than their exercising 'freewill'.

Whether I share what is needed with those I find 'in need' is 'freewill'. Once again, the practice of LOVE is a matter of 'freewill'. And following is impossible without 'freewill'. We are not 'puppets'. Jesus wasn't even a 'puppet'. The examples of Him PRAYING for strength shows clearly that He had 'freewill'. And questioned at times whether He Himself could DO what He was 'sent to do'. The flesh is a pretty powerful adversary.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

Whether one chooses to be a follower when offered the opportunity, or chooses to ignore the offering, that IS "Free will". I do not subscribe to any 'doctrines of men' simply because they have been introduced into 'religion'. What I believe is what has been revealed to me through direct revelation through the Word of God. Whether in direct discernment, or the words offered in the Bible that are simple to understand once one is 'born again'.

I cannot speak for 'all men'. But I can offer this: 'the truth is the truth as it pertains to 'all men'. Whether all men find it has no bearing on it's existence in what God reveals. All 'truth' that exists in the universe is the 'same truth'. We are not all capable of discovering 'alternate truths'. For alternate 'truths' only exist when men do not actually 'understand THE truth'.

Example: one plus one plus one equals THREE. Anyone that doesn't agree with this hasn't found or accepted THE 'truth'.

What this means to me is this: whatever 'truth' exists, it is the SAME truth to anyone that understands it. While all men will not understand an EQUAL AMOUNT of 'truth', what they do understand will be the SAME to 'all men'. God's 'truth' doesn't 'change'. His instruction over time may, but the foundation will never change.

So, if one man finds a 'truth', it will be the same truth all other men understand that understand THAT 'truth'.

Reading what has been offered by 'men' of the past, whether considered 'church fathers' or merely one recording what they believe, it is my opinion that not a single one has obtained 'the truth'. They understand SOME truths, but each falls short of 'the' truth.

My point is this: I rarely read what others of the past have offered. For everything we read has the potential to influence what we believe. So I do my best to stick with the Bible. If there is something that God wants to reveal, I am quite confident He is able to do it through His Word. The words of men are untrustworthy. The words of the 'best men' are untrustworthy.

Anyone that tries to accuse me of believing as others because of 'past' writings or teachings is incorrect in their assumption. If I believe as 'others of the past', it is due to 'finding' the same 'truth' that they did. Not through 'their' writings or teachings. My understanding is independent from the 'teachings of men'. Yet there are many men of the past that discovered, (had revealed to them), the same truths. Whatever I believe it didn't COME from the writings of 'men of the past' other than the one's who penned what is offered in the Bible.

What I believe about 'freewill' didn't come from the beliefs of others, it came from what I have learned through The Bible and whatever I believe the Holy Spirit has revealed.

The concept that we have 'no choice' is about as unBiblical as anything I have witnessed. Yes, if you were to choose to pick individual scriptures and use them out of context, you could certainly come to such a conclusion. The Calvinist have been teaching it for quite a while.

But if take the Bible as a whole, it clearly teaches that we possess 'freewill'. Heck, the word wouldn't even exist if it had NO meaning. God didn't MAKE the apostles 'followers'. Peter clearly demonstrated this over and over again. God revealed Himself and the apostles, most of them, could no longer do anything BUT 'believe'. But their 'following' was a 'choice' opted through FREEWILL.

Are there limits to our 'freewill'? Absolutely. Things as simple as our 'character' can limit our choices. Our experiences make us MOSTLY who we are. And what we learn doesn't always have the ability to overcome our 'character'. That means what we KNOW to be 'right' doesn't always DICTATE that we 'choose' that path instead of another.

But it is still our 'choice' to exercise 'freewill' or allow something else to determine our choices. What matters about this issue is this: no matter what path we are on, we ALWAYS have the ability to 'change it'. Even when we don't BELIEVE we have the 'choice', it's there.

God is able to forgive REGARDLESS. Whether He does or not is UP TO US. We cannot be taught to forgive ENDLESSLY if God isn't able to forgive ENDLESSLY. In other words, love is a CHOICE. Whether we exercise it, or not, is a CHOICE. And we have 'freewill' to choose one way or the other.

What we BELIEVE exists through 'freewill'. Not what we KNOW, but what we BELIEVE. That is made perfectly transparent by the fact that people can believe 'anything'. People are trudging through the woods right now looking for Bigfoot. There are people that insist that they believe in aliens, ghosts, and that the earth is flat. And their beliefs are nothing other than their exercising 'freewill'.

Whether I share what is needed with those I find 'in need' is 'freewill'. Once again, the practice of LOVE is a matter of 'freewill'. And following is impossible without 'freewill'. We are not 'puppets'. Jesus wasn't even a 'puppet'. The examples of Him PRAYING for strength shows clearly that He had 'freewill'. And questioned at times whether He Himself could DO what He was 'sent to do'. The flesh is a pretty powerful adversary.

Blessings,

MEC

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Respectfully, the semantics of linguistics belie any notion that such a free will as you describe exists, other than to call it doubleminded.

For example, we are not free to believe whatever we want to believe. If I could believe whatever I want to believe, then I could believe that I can't believe whatever I want to believe, which is not believing that I could believe in whatever I want to believe, which is believing that I can believe in what I cannot believe in. That is a contradiction in reasoning.

While it is wise to refrain from invoking the Holy Spirit in any debate, I believe that it's safe to say that I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would speak in such duplicitous terminology. Let your conversation be either nay or yeah for everything in between is of the devil.

There is a Truth, and there is a lie pretending to be true, but whose intention is to subvert. When God commands that we must love one another to live. Wouldn't it be Satan saying we have the choice to disregard God and not Love and yet live? The liar presents the choice/option.

Either God is trustworthy or He is not trustworthy; It is a choice only pondered by those who do not know Him..

JLB777 said:

Nothing in the Bible teaches us that man loses his freewill to choose either righteousness or unrighteousness.



Don’t you realize that grace frees you to choose your own master? But choose carefully, for you surrender yourself to become a servant—bound to the one you choose to obey. If you choose to love sin, it will become your master, and it will own you and reward you with death. But if you choose to love and obey God, he will lead you into perfect righteousness. Romans 6:16 TPT




JLB

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Respectfully, where did you get this translation of scripture? I have never seen the term grace translated in this verse before. I personally believe that when Paul says "don't you know", he is indicating that men think they choose out of their free will rather than see that they are too weak in the flesh to perform the law. Why do I think that? Because he says this in verse 19, I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh. What does he mean by infirmity but to imply weakness, lack of strength.

Regardless you seem to be saying that mankind did not have a free will if indeed Grace had to free us so as to be able to choose; while at the same time saying nothing in scripture teaches that mankind ever loses his free will to choose either righteousness or unrighteousness. So which is it? Or is the term free will evolving and changing in meaning?

And the scripture you provided also implies that we would lose the very free will that you are describing as never losing. I note that the setting is of one choosing who will be one's master and which power the person will serve, and let us recall that a person cannot serve two masters. It is the circumstance that creates the inevitability of a choice being made. We will inevitably make a choice regardless of whether we want to or not. Once you choose a master you are no longer free to choose the other.

Please tell me why I should thank God for becoming obedient from the heart?

17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; 18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members [as] servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members [as] servants to righteousness unto sanctification.

childeye 2 said:

I personally believe that when Paul says "don't you know", he is indicating that men think they choose out of their free will rather than see that they are too weak in the flesh to perform the law.

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Believers have a new nature empowered by the Holy Spirit, so that we have dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh, which desires to gratify its lustful cravings.


For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:14-16


again


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

JLB

JLB777 said:

Believers have a new nature empowered by the Holy Spirit, so that we have dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh, which desires to gratify its lustful cravings.

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I know. But if I may point out, you said at the outset of your post "Nothing in the Bible teaches us that man loses his freewill to choose either righteousness or unrighteousness". So understanding that scripture is teaching that sin had dominion over a man under the Old nature, how is it that you can say that nothing in the bible teaches us that man loses his free will to choose to not sin, when in fact sin had dominion over the man?
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

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So you're saying that without the Spirit you have no power to put to death the deeds of the body. Then why say that nothing in the bible teaches us that man loses his free will to choose righteousness? I mean, doesn't the Holy Spirit change the will of a person by empowering a new nature? Please answer this last question...

childeye 2 said:

I know. But if I may point out, you said at the outset of your post "Nothing in the Bible teaches us that man loses his freewill to choose either righteousness or unrighteousness". So understanding that scripture is teaching that sin had dominion over a man under the Old nature, how is it that you can say that nothing in the bible teaches us that man loses his free will to choose to not sin, when in fact sin had dominion over the man?
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

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Please present the scripture that says man does not have a free will to choose
to sin or not.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.


This was spoken to Cain in the Old Testament.


JLB

duplicate post

JLB777 said:

Please present the scripture that says man does not have a free will to choose
to sin or not.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.
This was spoken to Cain in the Old Testament.
JLB

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Thank you JLB777 for this excellent choice of scripture:
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.


Perhaps I should begin by telling you that the only free will I believe in is one that is free from sin, I see sin/Satan as a deceiver. Please understand that I mean no disrespect toward you whatsoever when I say that it concerns me that the free will you are teaching sounds to me like the same bondage as the Old Testament will (trying to establish one's own righteousness).

So I do not see God saying that Cain or anybody else has a moral/immoral free will to choose sin or not according to one's own preferance. In the scripture above I actually believe God is saying that sin is a deceitful power working to sway Caine to will to do what is self destructive. It's not so cut and dry as "you are free to choose".

Hence I read this scripture as God addressing Caine's fallen countenance (hurt pride) when He says, "if you do well, will you not be lifted up? But if not, then sin is stalking you in your thoughts trying to get you to do what is wrong. Don't let him rule you". I teach this to my children and Grand children, particularly when I see Satan talking to them in their thoughts. You can see it in their face and demeanor as a fallen countenance contemplating their hurt feelings and seeing things as unfair. Some teenagers suffer dearly.

Unfortunately, at one time or another, my own children have been deceived down that route only to find out what I am talking about is true. But of course I understand, because I once believed in free will just like you describe it, as my choice. I was raised believing in free will and it never dawned on me that sin was in me and in my parents and brother appealing to vanity and pushing our buttons. I thought our thoughts were our own because it was absurd to think someone else could be controlling me and others through our thoughts as if we were puppets. And so I know what it's like to be a slave to sin while thinking that I am free, since I have yielded my members to sin through the exact same deception as all of mankind in Adam has done.

And again we read that this was ordained, when God said to Satan the Father of sin, and God said " I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel". In other words I believe that sin/Satan was destined to be warring in the temporal flesh battleground of mankind against man's own spirit, because God declared it.

Here are some scriptures to back up my claim that the devil causes people to sin through deception and that Satan's seed is working in all flesh of mankind. Please do not gloss over them, but consider why I find each one of them applicable and important:

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Galatians 4:23-26 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

1 John 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Colossians 2:14-15 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Romans 8:For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 8:7-8, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.