Providence, theodicy, and ultimate control

Alan Asquith

Active Member
Aug 7, 2018
45
31
Private
✟10,910.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Private
For many years I have liked this wording in the liturgy for the Visitation of the Sick in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer:

Dearly beloved, know this, that Almighty God is the Lord of life and death, and of all things to them pertaining, as youth, strength, health, age, weakness, and sickness. Wherefore, whatsoever your sickness is, know you certainly, that it is God’s visitation. And for what cause soever this sickness is sent unto you; whether it be to try your patience, for the example of others, and that your faith may be found, in the day of the Lord laudable, glorious, and honourable, to the increase of glory and endless felicity; or else it be sent unto you, to correct and amend in you whatsoever doth offend the eyes of your heavenly Father; know you certainly, that if you truly repent you of your sins, and bear your sickness patiently, trusting in God’s mercy for his dear Son Jesus Christ’s sake, and render unto him humble thanks for his fatherly visitation, submitting yourself wholly unto his will; it shall turn to your profit, and help you forward in the right way that leadeth unto everlasting life.

I believe it reflects a biblical worldview that God is pulling all the strings and that he consents to everything that happens. We are not living in a universe where God and Satan are battling each other on equal terms, as if at certain times one of them dominates, while at other times the other one gains the upper hand. I find it very comforting to believe that nothing bad can happen to me by bad luck or random chance or by unfettered powers of evil.

But there are a few verses in the Bible which I find difficult to reconcile with this worldview and I would be grateful if you would please offer your comments on what I have written above and outline your interpretation of these verses below. Thank you.

[Jesus said:] "Satan has bound this woman, a daughter of Abraham, for 18 years - shouldn’t she be untied from this bondage on the Sabbath day?" (Luke 13:16)

[Paul wrote:] "We greatly desired and made every effort to return and see you face to face. So we wanted to come to you - even I, Paul, time and again - but Satan hindered us." (1 Thessalonians 2:17-18)

You will be far from oppression, you will certainly not be afraid;
you will be far from terror, it will certainly not come near you.
If anyone attacks you, it is not from Me. (Isaiah 54:14-15)

I am exceedingly angry with the nations that are at ease; for while I was angry but a little, they furthered the disaster. (Zechariah 1:15)
 

St. Helens

I stand with Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
CF Staff Trainer
Site Supporter
Jul 24, 2007
59,146
9,691
Lower Slower Minnesota
✟1,226,620.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
God is still in control in those verses. He knows beforehand what Satan is going to do and lets Satan shoot himself in the foot. The devil is not in control even though he thinks he is. In the end he still loses, even though it may look like he's going to win.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

That is all thing work together for the elect.

God knew beforehand that the crucifixion would be an attack on Jesus by Satan.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

An injury to the head is far worse than to the heel. It is clear that God is making Satan a pawn in what will eventually lead to his own utter defeat.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,361
3,628
Canada
✟747,724.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
We are not living in a universe where God and Satan are battling each other on equal terms, as if at certain times one of them dominates, while at other times the other one gains the upper hand.

That would be Gnosticism.

Keep in mind that Satan had to ask permission to trouble and try Job, Jesus controls unclean spirits, only God can take a life...God is in control.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Alan Asquith

Active Member
Aug 7, 2018
45
31
Private
✟10,910.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Private
"We greatly desired and made every effort to return and see you face to face. So we wanted to come to you - even I, Paul, time and again - but Satan hindered us." (1 Thessalonians 2:17-18)

Paul wished to return to Thessalonica but something prevented him. He blames Satan but presumably (since Paul was a good Calvinist ;)) he believed it was God's will that he should not return to Thessalonica at that time and Satan was merely a pawn in God's hand. So it seems strange to me that Paul blamed Satan and implied that his failure to return was a misfortune and that God's perfect purpose had been thwarted. When Job suffered loss of children and livestock, he did not blame the Sabeans or the forces of nature or Satan (even though they were all factors) but rather he acknowledged and praised God as the one who had taken things away from him. Why do you think Paul blamed Satan for hindering him rather than assure the Thessalonians that it wasn't God's will that he should return to see them at that time?

This is not idle speculation. I think the answer to that question would be a guide as to how we should interpret and respond to the vagaries of everyday life.
 
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

:sighing:
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,375
8,788
55
USA
✟691,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"We greatly desired and made every effort to return and see you face to face. So we wanted to come to you - even I, Paul, time and again - but Satan hindered us." (1 Thessalonians 2:17-18)

Paul wished to return to Thessalonica but something prevented him. He blames Satan but presumably (since Paul was a good Calvinist ;)) he believed it was God's will that he should not return to Thessalonica at that time and Satan was merely a pawn in God's hand. So it seems strange to me that Paul blamed Satan and implied that his failure to return was a misfortune and that God's perfect purpose had been thwarted. When Job suffered loss of children and livestock, he did not blame the Sabeans or the forces of nature or Satan (even though they were all factors) but rather he acknowledged and praised God as the one who had taken things away from him. Why do you think Paul blamed Satan for hindering him rather than assure the Thessalonians that it wasn't God's will that he should return to see them at that time?

This is not idle speculation. I think the answer to that question would be a guide as to how we should interpret and respond to the vagaries of everyday life.

Have you ever noticed nothing "bad" comes from God?

He may allow things to happen that we see as "bad", but He is never the cause of those things.

He simply gives Satan more reign when it serves His purpose, and reigns him in when it doesn't.

So on the one hand the lack of visitation is a satanic attack, and on the other, God's will that Paul not visit at that time..

The entire Bible is like that.. all good things are from God, but there are times and for His perfect purposes He allows Satan some leeway.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
There are several passages that speak to this. Look up the word evil in Isa. I think it is in 42,43 that says that He creates evil, trouble or calamity. Moreover there are passages in Rom. and Corinth. That speak of all things are of God. He is the first cause of all things yet not the Creator of evil. He uses Satan as well as the reprobate to bring to pass His purpose of grace for the glory of His name and the good of His people. You can take those two words, all things, as far as you will. As you do you will begin to see the loving hand of the Lord God in everything in order that He will accomplish His purpose in magnifying Christ Jesus in the salvation of chosen sinners.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,608.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
In the Institutes Calvin deals with a similar situation. While this isn't exactly his language, he maintains that you can understand things on three levels. At one level, events happen according to causes in the world. People make decisions, and they're responsible for them. On a second level, Satan may be moving events. That doesn't remove the explanations on the first level: people make decisions based on their own motivations, even if they are in accordance with Satan's plan or God's. But on a third level, God is in control of everything, even Satan.

However just as in the first level, the fact that he's doing God's will doesn't mean that God is pulling strings. God doesn't do things to make Satan or humans do evil. They do it for their own reasons. But it's still all part of God's plan, which he is responsible for.

This is an explanation for evil. For the actions of Christians, God has a more personal involvement.

[This isn't necessarily my personal explanation. I'm assuming the poster wants an answer based on traditional Calvinism.]
 
Upvote 0