Speaking in tongues -- revisited -- your thoughts?

tdidymas · Sep 14, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Thanks. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Especially the last sentence. Am I to understand that you are now a Sabbatarian? If so, you and I are about as far apart doctrinally as we could be. I'm a Pentecostal anti-Sabbatarian, and you would be an anti-Pentecostal Sabbatarian.

Sabbatarian? That has nothing to do with the sabbath rest mentioned in Hebrews. The sabbath rest of Hebrews is an experience of spiritual rest that translates to psychological resting in Christ. It is described as "ceased from one's own labor." I think you are trying too hard to understand my meaning, since your guesses at it are far removed from it. But I appreciate the questions, as they call me to clarify it. If you are familiar with the scriptural text, you will be able to see that whatever I say is based on what I know the Bible to say. I don't follow any groups. I only follow the text of scripture, and I only listen to those who show me by scripture and reason that they also follow the text of scripture.
TD

Blade · Sep 14, 2018

I dont like digging.. never have. Every heard of how once a year they would go in to the holy of hollies and would speak to God in a different tongue not of man? This is not hearsay..it comes from a Rabbi that does not believe in Christ. I toss this in.. was never going to. For me if I cant find it written.. I will listen..

God the Father of our lord Jesus Christ has not changed and ANYTHING He started He finishes and it NEVER EVER can die. Always grows..

OzSpen · Sep 14, 2018

tdidymas said:
Therefore your idea that there is a difference between the kind of tongues in 1 Cor. 14 and Acts 2 does not hold true to the scripture.
TD

td,

The tongues in Acts 2 relate to Pentecost and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

The gift of tongues in 1 Cor 14 is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:28-30) and 'the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they (sic) may interpret what they say' (1 Cor 14:13 NIV).

There is no indication in 1 Cor 14 that the gifts of tongues and interpretation are exactly the same as that which happened on the Day of Pentecost according to Acts 2.

However, 1 Cor 14:2 does allow for any tongues' gifted person to speak in tongues to God for personal edification.

Blessings,
Oz

Saint Steven · Sep 14, 2018

tdidymas said:
Sabbatarian? That has nothing to do with the sabbath rest mentioned in Hebrews. The sabbath rest of Hebrews is an experience of spiritual rest that translates to psychological resting in Christ. It is described as "ceased from one's own labor." I think you are trying too hard to understand my meaning, since your guesses at it are far removed from it. But I appreciate the questions, as they call me to clarify it. If you are familiar with the scriptural text, you will be able to see that whatever I say is based on what I know the Bible to say. I don't follow any groups. I only follow the text of scripture, and I only listen to those who show me by scripture and reason that they also follow the text of scripture.
TD

Okay thanks. Yes, I agree with that take on Hebrews. Not soooo far apart then. Good to know.

Yes, I want to draw people out. The tendency of posters is to be vague and guarded. Or to have basic problems with written communication. Present company not included.

tdidymas · Sep 14, 2018

OzSpen said:
td,

The tongues in Acts 2 relate to Pentecost and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

The gift of tongues in 1 Cor 14 is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:28-30) and 'the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they (sic) may interpret what they say' (1 Cor 14:13 NIV).

There is no indication in 1 Cor 14 that the gifts of tongues and interpretation are exactly the same as that which happened on the Day of Pentecost according to Acts 2.

However, 1 Cor 14:2 does allow for any tongues' gifted person to speak in tongues to God for personal edification.

Blessings,
Oz

What there is no indication of is that the nature of tongues changed from Acts 2 to 1 Cor. 14. The only reason you interpret it the way you do is because of the bias of your personal experience. You got that experience and at that time someone told you that it was the Holy Spirit, and because it felt that way to you, you accepted it hook, line, and sinker. This might not be your exact experience, but you get my drift (maybe). It is the typical experience of thousands of people I have observed, along with my own, in my 20 years of experience among the P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) movement.

The way I interpret 1 Cor. 14 is that I am trying to sit in Paul's chair to figure out just what he is thinking when he is writing what he is writing. I see him looking back at Acts 2 for the pattern of what the churches should be doing in regard to tongues. He mentions the customs and practices of the church as authority for commanding the Corinthians (11:16). He adds his reasoning to it as to why it should be that way. What we compare is that in Acts 2, the people had interpretation, therefore there should be interpretation. People were edified, therefore there should be edification of the church. The apostles were speaking unknown languages (to the speaker) no doubt in prayers and praise to God (as the text of Acts 2 indicates). Therefore Paul writes "if there is no interpreter, he should speak to himself and God" - it means not out loud for the congregation to hear. There is nothing in Paul's writing about the order of things that indicates any change in the nature of tongues from Acts 2.

Your idea that the nature of tongues changed from Acts 2 to 1 Cor. 14 is a false conclusion that is based on your agenda that the scripture should read that way, not as the scripture actually reads.
TD

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 14, 2018

Saint Steven said: ↑
Thanks. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Especially the last sentence. Am I to understand that you are now a Sabbatarian? If so, you and I are about as far apart doctrinally as we could be. I'm a Pentecostal anti-Sabbatarian, and you would be an anti-Pentecostal Sabbatarian.

tdidymas said:
Sabbatarian? That has nothing to do with the sabbath rest mentioned in Hebrews. The sabbath rest of Hebrews is an experience of spiritual rest that translates to psychological resting in Christ. It is described as "ceased from one's own labor."......
TD

Here are 2 different greek words used for rest in the NT

372. anapausis an-ap'-ow-sis from 373; intermission; by implication, recreation:--rest.
373. anapano an-ap-ow'-o from 303 and 3973
3973. pauo pow'-o a primary verb ("pause"); to stop (transitively or intransitively), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end:--cease, leave, refrain.

#372 used in only 5 verses [from the root word #3973]. 2 in Matt, 1 in Luke and 2 in Revelaton

Matthew 11:29
"Take! My yoke upon ye, and be learning from Me. That meek am-I and humble to the heart,
and ye shall be finding rest/anapausin <372> to the souls of ye"

Not sure what the connection is between the 4 living-ones in Reve 4:8 and the beast worshipers in Reve 14:11.

Revelation 4:8
And the four living-ones, one according to one to-them, having above wings, six compassing.
And within they are being replete of eyes, and rest/anapausin <372> not they are having day and night saying:
"Holy Holy Holy Lord the GOD, the Almighty, the One-was, and the One-being, and the One-coming' [Isaiah 6:2, 3/Ezekiel 4:1]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.
And not they are having rest/anapausin <372> day and night [Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]
for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

2663. katapausis kat-ap'-ow-sis from 2664; reposing down, i.e. (by Hebraism) abode:--rest.
2596 and 3973
3973. pauo pow'-o a primary verb ("pause"); to stop (transitively or intransitively), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end:--cease, leave, refrain.

Hebrews uses #2663, used only in Hebrews and 1 time in Acts:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2663&t=YLT

Act 7:49
'The heaven is My throne, and the earth My footstool;
what house will ye build to Me?' saith the Lord, 'or what is the place of My rest/(katapausis)<2663>?'

Hebrews 4:3
For we are entering into the rest/(katapausis)<2663>, the ones-believing.
According to as He declared, 'As I have sware in My wrath, if they shall be entering into the Rest/(katapausis)<2663> of Me' and-those the works from down-casting of world being become. [Psalm 95:11]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3973&t=YLT

1 Peter 4:1
Christ then, having suffered for us in the flesh, ye also with the same mind arm yourselves,
because He who did suffer in the flesh hath ceased/(pauō)<3973> with sin,

OzSpen · Sep 14, 2018

tdidymas said:
The only reason you interpret it the way you do is because of the bias of your personal experience.

TD,

That is absolutely false! I am an exegete with a PhD in New Testament. I read and have taught NT Greek.

By the way, none of us is without bias, including TD. See my articles:

The way I interpret 1 Cor. 14 is that I am trying to sit in Paul's chair to figure out just what he is thinking when he is writing what he is writing. I see him looking back at Acts 2 for the pattern of what the churches should be doing in regard to tongues.

The way I interpret any Scripture (incl. 1 Cor 14) is using the historical-grammatical-cultural-contextual method. I interpret 1 Cor 14 according to the context of 1 Cor 12-14.

Paul is writing to a Corinthian church that had significant issues in regard to the gifts of the Spirit. That's the immediate context and he set about to teach them proper expression of the gifts, while correcting their errors.

Your idea that the nature of tongues changed from Acts 2 to 1 Cor. 14 is a false conclusion that is based on your agenda that the scripture should read that way, not as the scripture actually reads.

False again! That's an Argument from Silence logical fallacy by which you impose your view on my understanding and come up with a furphy.

Oz

GTW27 · Sep 14, 2018

Emli said:
I'm not exaggerating, I am 100% serious and God stops me if I even start to lie, exaggerate, brag or put any focus on myself, and I also don't want any spotlight anyway, I often try to flee from it. Is it really that unusual? It feels normal to me, it has been like this since I got saved. But my calling is really difficult and serious and it may turn out to be huge in the future, so that may be the case. Only God knows. :/

Yes it will be huge in the future. Know that you are not alone. There are others, not in the places people would expect to find them. They will be ready to turn the battle back, in the times ahead.

Gr8Grace · Sep 14, 2018

tdidymas said:
Can you detail how you come to your conclusion?
TD

No. I can't. Because your conclusion sure seems to be right. Mine sure seems to be wrong. Sorry to you and the thread.

Dan the deacon · Sep 14, 2018

tdidymas said:
He is talking about Paul exaggerating when he uses the phrase "tongues of ... angels". If we read that passage correctly, we can easily see that Paul is using that phrase in an exaggerative manner. 1 Cor. 13.
TD

Now that was a nice way of saying Paul.was lying. Exaggerating is lying in case you don't know. The tongues of angels are just what they say they are. No different from a Jew speaking Greek or a Egyptian speaking Hebrew. I am quite sure the angels have a tongue.

Dan the deacon · Sep 14, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Do you believe that someone can be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity? Is that a salvation issue? This might not be something we can discuss on the forum. Not sure.

No it is a Christian church issue. Even this forum bans them from posting in Christian only forums.
The Creed is what makes is of one flesh if we are of one flesh and the body of Christ.
Can one go to heaven not believing in the trinity? I have read nothing that says they cannot. I.suppose one could never even attend Church and make it if you believe scripture is our only method of knowing about God.
My Church believes in more than scripture alone but then honestly all Churches do(they just do not admit it). I mean you are speaking of many different types of tongues and scripture does not say such. Scripture speaks of differing ways of using tongues but not different styles. Just different languages the speaker has not learmed.

Dan the deacon · Sep 14, 2018

tdidymas said:
What there is no indication of is that the nature of tongues changed from Acts 2 to 1 Cor. 14. The only reason you interpret it the way you do is because of the bias of your personal experience. You got that experience and at that time someone told you that it was the Holy Spirit, and because it felt that way to you, you accepted it hook, line, and sinker. This might not be your exact experience, but you get my drift (maybe). It is the typical experience of thousands of people I have observed, along with my own, in my 20 years of experience among the P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) movement.

The way I interpret 1 Cor. 14 is that I am trying to sit in Paul's chair to figure out just what he is thinking when he is writing what he is writing. I see him looking back at Acts 2 for the pattern of what the churches should be doing in regard to tongues. He mentions the customs and practices of the church as authority for commanding the Corinthians (11:16). He adds his reasoning to it as to why it should be that way. What we compare is that in Acts 2, the people had interpretation, therefore there should be interpretation. People were edified, therefore there should be edification of the church. The apostles were speaking unknown languages (to the speaker) no doubt in prayers and praise to God (as the text of Acts 2 indicates). Therefore Paul writes "if there is no interpreter, he should speak to himself and God" - it means not out loud for the congregation to hear. There is nothing in Paul's writing about the order of things that indicates any change in the nature of tongues from Acts 2.

Your idea that the nature of tongues changed from Acts 2 to 1 Cor. 14 is a false conclusion that is based on your agenda that the scripture should read that way, not as the scripture actually reads.
TD

I agree. There are different tongues but not different types. No bible verse speaks of such. Differing uses? Yes.

Emli · Sep 14, 2018

GTW27 said:
Yes it will be huge in the future. Know that you are not alone. There are others, not in the places people would expect to find them. They will be ready to turn the battle back, in the times ahead.

Thank you. I'm sure that God will eventually place them in my life, and also reveal to me what's going on, in His timing.

tdidymas · Sep 15, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
Now that was a nice way of saying Paul.was lying. Exaggerating is lying in case you don't know. The tongues of angels are just what they say they are. No different from a Jew speaking Greek or a Egyptian speaking Hebrew. I am quite sure the angels have a tongue.

Come on, Dan, who told you that exaggeration is lying? No, it is not. Lying is intent to deceive. Exaggeration is overstatement. When exaggeration is used to emphasize a point, no one believes it is lying, and everyone does it occasionally. Did Jesus lie when he gave the hyperbole "if your right eye offends you, gouge it out"? I don't think you believe that he expected anyone to actually do that, since I heard of no Christian in history that has done it, except some aberrant fringe who can't discern truth from falsehood. The NT is conversation, written in conversation Greek.

Do you think Jesus lied to his brothers when he told them he wasn't going to the feast, but later went? He was without sin, so how could he intend to deceive? Obviously we try to fill in the blanks. It's natural to do so, and we are wired for it. Even children don't think their parents are lying when they say "I've told you a thousand times..." since the child didn't hear it a thousand times. Even children understand exaggeration for emphasis.

It depends then on the usage of the exaggeration. If exaggeration is used with intent to deceive, then someone would be lying, but it is not the exaggeration itself that is the lie, but rather the context of the deception. If exaggeration is used to emphasize a point, then it is easy to see it is merely an emphasis, and has no intent to deceive in it. This is the case of Paul, since he also does this in several of his epistles.

Ok, so we can surmise that angels have a language they speak. I'm just trying to say what the Bible actually says and doesn't say. Since the Bible doesn't say that they have any language different than the language of men, then to surmise that they do is pure speculation. Did Paul actually know or believe that angels have their own special languages? I guess we'll have to ask him about it.
TD

Saint Steven · Sep 15, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
No it is a Christian church issue. Even this forum bans them from posting in Christian only forums.
The Creed is what makes is of one flesh if we are of one flesh and the body of Christ.
Can one go to heaven not believing in the trinity? I have read nothing that says they cannot. I.suppose one could never even attend Church and make it if you believe scripture is our only method of knowing about God.
My Church believes in more than scripture alone but then honestly all Churches do(they just do not admit it). I mean you are speaking of many different types of tongues and scripture does not say such. Scripture speaks of differing ways of using tongues but not different styles. Just different languages the speaker has not learmed.

It has more to do with the application (uses) of the tongues than the "kind". Although singing in tongues is certainly different than an intercessory prayer language. Someone on that topic suggested adding Warfare prayer in tongues. Which I added to the OP.

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Mountainmanbob · Sep 15, 2018

I've searched for a long time but, cannot find a video of one speaking in tongues where it looks to be believable. If anyone has such a video please post it. Regarding the subject I have always tried to keep an open mind although very cautious for it seems the proof is not to be found (these days.)
M-Bob

Emli · Sep 15, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
I've searched for a long time but, cannot find a video of one speaking in tongues where it looks to be believable. If anyone has such a video please post it. Regarding the subject I have always tried to keep an open mind although very cautious for it seems the proof is not to be found (these days.)
M-Bob

I agree with you on the video. The things going on in that video is not of God. Some of it is demonic (speaking from experience) and some of it is human. But the real tongues I have heard was entirely different. It was not chaotic, it was not demonic, it was not just random syllables or lalalalala, it was actual words and they had power in them that I have only felt from the Holy Spirit before. It sounded and felt like God, and it made me so calm it conquered my fleshly urges instead of increasing them. It was definitely not demonic, because demonic "false light" feels entirely different and it makes you crazy and gives you a spiritual high instead of giving you a sound mind devoted to Christ. But I cannot prove it with a video.

I hope and pray that God will reveal His truth to all of us.

I'm sure that there is more to it than we know, but if we just hold on to whatever truth or lie or half-truth we believe right now, He isn't gonna reveal anything to anyone, because we wouldn't be earnestly seeking His will and His ways. So let's stay humble before Him. He is God and His ways are higher than our ways.

Dan the deacon · Sep 15, 2018

tdidymas said:
Come on, Dan, who told you that exaggeration is lying? No, it is not. Lying is intent to deceive. Exaggeration is overstatement. When exaggeration is used to emphasize a point, no one believes it is lying, and everyone does it occasionally. Did Jesus lie when he gave the hyperbole "if your right eye offends you, gouge it out"? I don't think you believe that he expected anyone to actually do that, since I heard of no Christian in history that has done it, except some aberrant fringe who can't discern truth from falsehood. The NT is conversation, written in conversation Greek.

Do you think Jesus lied to his brothers when he told them he wasn't going to the feast, but later went? He was without sin, so how could he intend to deceive? Obviously we try to fill in the blanks. It's natural to do so, and we are wired for it. Even children don't think their parents are lying when they say "I've told you a thousand times..." since the child didn't hear it a thousand times. Even children understand exaggeration for emphasis.

It depends then on the usage of the exaggeration. If exaggeration is used with intent to deceive, then someone would be lying, but it is not the exaggeration itself that is the lie, but rather the context of the deception. If exaggeration is used to emphasize a point, then it is easy to see it is merely an emphasis, and has no intent to deceive in it. This is the case of Paul, since he also does this in several of his epistles.

Ok, so we can surmise that angels have a language they speak. I'm just trying to say what the Bible actually says and doesn't say. Since the Bible doesn't say that they have any language different than the language of men, then to surmise that they do is pure speculation. Did Paul actually know or believe that angels have their own special languages? I guess we'll have to ask him about it.
TD

If it is exaggeration it is not truth. If it is not truth then it is lying. There is no in between.

Dan the deacon · Sep 15, 2018

Saint Steven said:
It has more to do with the application (uses) of the tongues than the "kind". Although singing in tongues is certainly different than an intercessory prayer language. Someone on that topic suggested adding Warfare prayer in tongues. Which I added to the OP.

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

These are uses of tongues not types of tongues.

Saint Steven · Sep 15, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
These are uses of tongues not types of tongues.

Right. I agreed with you.

Speaking in tongues -- revisited -- your thoughts?

In agreement with statements made in this video?

Total agreement

Agreement for the most part

Agree with a few points made

Not in agreement

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