Interested in knowing more about the church

The first thing to know about the Seventh-Day Adventists is that they are SABBATH-KEEPERS. Their feeling is, one of the Ten Commandments God gave is to remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy, and they believe that we should do that today, also, since "God is not a man, that He should change His mind." Second, a lot of them are vegetarians. This is not required, however. Finally, and this may not bother you, their founder was a woman. Her name was Ellen White and, like Mary Baker Eddy founded Christian Science, she was a woman who founded an entire Christian denomination. To see a Seventh-Day Adventist in action, watch the Christian television program "Amazing Facts." The host is named Doug Batchelor and his show is very informative.

.Iona. said:

Hi, Hope you don't mind me posting here. I was at a country show this weekend and there was a stall held by the local Seventh Day Adventist Church and they were so kind. They gave me a selection of books and leaflets and one of their Bibles and it's really interested me. I thought about it a while ago, but felt it was too conservative for me - but now it seems like what I need!

Can I ask some questions?

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Questions welcomed

Northbrook said:

The first thing to know about the Seventh-Day Adventists is that they are SABBATH-KEEPERS. Their feeling is, one of the Ten Commandments God gave is to remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

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That is not a "feeling" -- Exodus 20 "exists". I am curious that you would say that Adventists have a "feeling" that one of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 -- exists.

Northbrook said:

, and they believe that we should do that today, also, since "God is not a man, that He should change His mind."

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To that point I would say that almost all Christian denominations have a statement of faith affirming that the Sabbath Commandment still applies to all mankind just as it did for all mankind in the OT. It is included in the "moral law of God that is written on the heart" under the Jer 31:31-33 Hebrews 8:6-10 "New Covenant" even by non-SDA standards.

(See my signature line for a few examples)
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

As for "Orthodox" statements on the Sabbath affirmation.
Jan 13, 2014 #1

Where we "differ" with them is in regard to their claims that after the cross that command was bent/edited/re-pointed to week-day-1, via tradition and that such attempts to change it were legit.

Second, a lot of them are vegetarians. This is not required, however.

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That is true. And also they operate in one of only 5 "blue zones" on planet earth, where they are included in what is considered to be longest living groups on the planet.

"Blue Zones – Places In the World Where People Live to 100 and Stay Healthy"

https://singularityhub.com/2009/07/...ld-where-people-live-to-100-and-stay-healthy/

To see a Seventh-Day Adventist in action, watch the Christian television program "Amazing Facts." The host is named Doug Batchelor and his show is very informative.

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That is true. Doug Batchelor is a Seventh-day Adventist evangelist. He holds not official administrative office in the church other than being a local pastor of one medium sized congregation in California. But he is a very effective evangelist and travels to do evangelistic meetings as well as outreach through television, videos, internet etc.

As Christianity Today pointed out in Jan 22, 2015, the SDA denomination is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/c...ts-can-ben-carson-church-stay-separatist.html

USA Today pointed out in 2011 that the SDA denomination is the "fastest growing Christian church in North America"
https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-18-Adventists_17_ST_N.htm

Finally, and this may not bother you, their founder was a woman. Her name was Ellen White and, like Mary Baker Eddy founded Christian Science, she was a woman who founded an entire Christian denomination.

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That is not entirely correct. Ellen White was indeed one of a number of Adventist early pioneers that did start the Adventist denomination. Note it started as a sunday keeping group. The denomination was influenced by the Bible and the Seventh-day Baptists to become Seventh-day keeping.

However there is no such thing as "Ellen White went out and started a denomination".



In fact the quickest way to define the group is to say "begin with Seventh-day Baptist" as your starting point then add to it 4 key Bible doctrines about the judgment in heaven and about 1Thess 4:13-21 as well as 1 Corinthians 12, Revelation 14 etc and you have the Seventh-day Adventist church doctrines of the published-on-internet "28 Fundamental Beliefs".

We are one of the few "Sola Scriptra" groups left that actually evaluates the doctrine on the Sabbath "sola scriptura".

What is more - there is not a single doctrine in the SDA denomination where the argument for it or the proof for it is given as some quote from Ellen White.
That is very "unlike" Christian Science and other groups that claim God had given them a prophet to help the church.

Mary Baker Eddy by contrast " published her work in 1875 in a book entitled Science and Health (years later retitled Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures) which she called the textbook of Christian Science, after several years of offering her healing method." (Wikipedia)

She thus 'founded" the group - providing its 'text for doctrine'.

The same is true of Joseph Smith and mormons. His claim to write the "Book of Mormon" and other books which he in fact did write such as "Perl of Great Price" are the "texts" that the mormons are using in evangelism to prove their doctrine. Joseph Smith thus 'founded" the group - providing its 'text' for doctrine.

By contrast Ellen White had no such book to launch Adventists - rather it was William Miller that began the Adventist movement for his 1844 prediction. And after that failed - some of those members began to re-study the question of where Miller got his message wrong. It as withing that "group" that Ellen Harmon could be found very interested in how that problem would be solved by its leaders. She did not start out as "its leader". Nor are the messages God gave to her used as the "text for doctrine" as can be seen from the published list of doctrinal statements and by a review of the early history of the denomination.

.Iona. said:

I don't quite understand why the sabbath is a Saturday? I'm for churches where the day of rest has always been a Sunday.

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Sabbath is an English pronouciation of Shabbat. That is what it is called in Hebrew. The word is very closely tied to the word for “seven” so it is the seventh day of the week.

So which is the first day? Our Lord celebrated Sabbath on Saturday and the Jews have kept that day for at least 2500 years of recorded history. I think that should be proof enough that the first day is Sunday and the seventh is Saturday.

.Iona. said:

Thanks everyone for replying!

I don't quite understand why the sabbath is a Saturday?

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Exodus 20:10 "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" is in the TEN Commandments. IT is the Sabbath Commandment.

By contrast the Bible says that "on the first day of the week" Christ was resurrected. And that is Sunday. So the "Sabbath" is on Saturday - the 7th day.

Believing Jews and gentiles were gathering "Every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 to hear gospel preaching in the synagogue.

There is no OT or NT command to "gather every week-day-1" or "every first day", for worship.

For all eternity after the cross the Bible says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Christ said "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

I'm for churches where the day of rest has always been a Sunday.

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Possibly you would be interested in seeing what the Bible has to say on the subject.

If the founder was a woman - do you have women ministers/ vicars/ preachers - not sure what you call them.

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In my post I did not claim "our founder was a woman" -- at the time of the formation of our church there were a number of members... one of which was Ellen White.

SDAs in most countries do not have woman pastors (with the exception of China) -- but many women have been asked at times to teach Sabbath School or give sermons. In more recent years some women have been appointed to the work of pastors in countries outside of China.

.Iona. said:

So why have churches made it Sunday? This is something I am definitely going to read up on more.

Are there any other similarities to Judaism?

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Christianity is a sect of Judaism. However - Adventists do not keep the Leviticus 23 annual feast days because in Hebrews 10 we find that all the liturgy related to sacrifices and offerings was fulfilled/deleted at the cross --

Acts 24:14 "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they (non-Christian Jewish accusers of Paul) call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets";


Showing Christianity as a sect of Judaism
In Acts 23 we find this telling statement when Paul is on trial - accused by non-Christian Jews and tried before a Roman governor.

Acts 23
6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!” 7 As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. 9 And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, “We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?”

In other words - non-Christian Pharisees claim there is no issue with the teaching / claims of Paul -- in a court of law when it comes to Judaism. They may not agree with his specific claims about Christ but making a claim about the Messiah .. saying this or that person is the Messiah predicted in the Jewish scripture - is not anti-Pharisee nor does it make you a member of "Another religion".

In Acts 17:11 this is said of non-Christian Jews and God-fearing Gentiles who accepted the Bible "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so"

They had no "scriptures" at that time other than the OT text - ... Christianity was viewed as a sect of Judaism.

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However both Sunday and Saturday churches do agree to one thing -- all TEN of the Ten commandments apply to Christians

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

.Iona. said:

Thanks everyone for replying!

I don't quite understand why the sabbath is a Saturday? I'm for churches where the day of rest has always been a Sunday.

If the founder was a woman - do you have women ministers/ vicars/ preachers - not sure what you call them.

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I'm not going to give you a big long argument on the Sabbath. I just say this. Go back and read the creation story in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 and see which day of the week God sanctified and made holy.

Then go to Exodus 20 and re-read the 10 commandments. See if you can find any relationship between creation and the commandments. If you find one ask yourself if it is an important one in God's eyes.

I'll end this post with a couple of more texts.

Exodus 31: 12 And the Lord said to Moses, 13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20: 12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them.
....
19 I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules, 20 and keep my Sabbaths holy that they may be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.

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tampasteve said:

Must one abstain from alcohol to be a SDA member?

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That's a good question Steve. I know a bunch of Adventists who use alcohol. They are still professing members of the SDA church. They look at this subject a lot differently than I do.

I look at it not as a behavior issue, but as something that affects my relationship with God. There are several Bible stories that illustrate this. Read the stories of Aaron's sons and Eli's sons. God struck Aaron's sons dead because of what they did under the influence of alcohol. Eli's sons were drinkers and they behaved atrociously towards both God and man, and met their judgment in a battle with the Philistines. Eli acknowledged it as a judgment from God.

Aaron had another son too. There is no record of him drinking alcohol, and he went on to become the high priest after Aaron's death. Same mother, same father, same training in childhood. The difference between then and where they ended up was alcohol. Also, look at the story of the golden calf. The Bible tells us that the people sat down to eat and drink, and then they rose up to "play". For this thousands of them died. If you know anything of the ancient gods the Egyptians and Caananites worshiped you know their worship had everything to do with hedonism. In other words the Israelites got drunk and basically had an orgy. Why did they have to get drunk first? Because alcohol blunts the conscience and quiets the influence of Holy Spirit thus leaving the user to be under an increased influence by the devil.

I say these things as someone who drank and used drugs heavily for years. I know I did things while under the influence that I would never have done sober, even then.

tampasteve said:

I get it, I can see why one would abstain for those reasons and would never want to pressure someone to give up their convictions if that is what they felt. That said I just cannot wrap my head around why the church says that Jesus did not make wine, or that it was not at the Last Supper. The evidence to the contrary seems overwhelming, wine is what was served at weddings, and to not have wine at a Passover Seder would be unthinkable. That said, I can see the reasons on why the Lord's Supper with SDA uses grape juice in place of wine (purity, etc.), and I do not see an issue with that.

To your knowledge, are these foundation beliefs that one must hold to be a member?

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Steve,

I think there is a lot of evidence that the "wine" that Jesus created at the wedding feast in Cana was not alcoholic wine, but pure fresh grape juice. The same is true for the last supper. Here is the foundation of my thinking.

When Jesus was hanging on the cross and just before He died, He cried out that He was thirsty. The Roman soldiers offered him a drink that was a common drink of that day used to deaden pain. It was alcoholic in nature. Jesus refused it. Now why would He refuse it when He was thirsty and in pain? This to me says Jesus was not someone who used alcohol, and if He didn't personally use alcohol, and even refused it while dying, is it very liikely that he created it for the use of others? If Jesus refused alcohol while on the cross, is it very likely that He imbibed during His lifetime? I think not. He had every inducement to use alcohol on the cross for medical reasons yet He refused it.

I would also point out that when the wine Jesus made at Cana was tasted it was judged to be far superior to that which had already been being served for days beforehand. Now if everyone is sitting around drunk at this party just how likely is it that their taste buds would not have already been deadened by all that alcohol? I would say, not very likely. A drunk is not a very good judge of flavor, yet it was said that the best wine had been saved until the last. To me this points to the fact that the wine served at that feast was unfermented grape juice.

Remember that the word translated as "wine" in English was used to refer to fresh grape juice and wine at that time. Also remember that it was Jesus, through the OT prophets who told the Israelites to not use alcoholic beverages. He is also the one who inspired the OT writers to write thing such as Proverbs 20:1. Jesus also inspired Isaiah to write the reason the 10 tribes were being destroyed in Isaiah 28:

7 ¶But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

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Here we see the cause of the destruction of the northern kingdom. These people abandoned God and any sense of justice through the use of alcoholic beverages. And in chapter 5 we see the course being pursued at that time which led to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians:

11 ¶Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!*n10
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 ¶Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.*n11
14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

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Drinking and partying led to the abandoment of God and His principles. We find this scenario throughout the Bible. Paul tells us that the stories in the OT were recorded that we might learn from their example. Do you think it is really safe to ignore this history?

Now as to your last question, I will not set myself up as anyone's judge in this matter. It's between them and God, and how committed they are to their relationship with God. Church membership, no matter what the denomination, is no guarantee of heaven. Our guarantee of heaven is how tightly we cling to God and trust Him to lead us in the paths of righteousness. To me that is what is important, and what actually counts with God according to scripture.

My question to you is, why, when the Bible shows us examples of what the usage of alcohol leads to would anyone want to risk losing their sense of judgment and their relationship with God over alcohol? The value of a drink compared to the value of eternal life is basically like comparing an ant and an elephant in size, at least to me. I know where alcohol usage leads and what it does to humanity through personal experience, but my conscience is not yours neither is my experience yours. This is one of those value judgments you must make for yourself.

tampasteve said:

Thanks for your reply, it is well thought out - but I cannot debate in the SDA community on why I disagree.

But to go back to beliefs, is this a foundational belief that one must hold to be SDA?

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I believe it is foundational for the reasons I've given, but not everyone's conscience, as you well know, has the same baseline, the same set of paradigms by which we see the Bible and life. It is foundational for the same reason the SDA health message is foundational for the SDA church, and yet not everyone in the SDA church buys into it either.

If you would like to disagree by PM that's fine with me. I'd like to see your reasoning.

Much of the SDA doctrines on proper behavior came from the Wesleyan Holiness movement, and that precluded any kind of alcohol consumption.

Dave-W said:

Much of the SDA doctrines on proper behavior came from the Wesleyan Holiness movement, and that precluded any kind of alcohol consumption.

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Well, I don't think any Christian can condone losing control of your mental and physical facilities to say nothing of the spiritual dangers.