Luke's Gospel

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Remember that these denominations have female pastors and perform gay weddings. That wouldn't be possible with a conservative understanding of Scripture.

But which one is right? They cannot both be :) According to scripture, which position is correct (gay okay or gay not okay, female head pastors okay or female head pastors not okay)? You see my point? If some can spin, even the most seemingly axiomatic dictates from the Bible, whom was apparently inspired by an all perfect creator, where does that leave us, when interpreting 'harder' stuff, like how to get to heaven, verses not heaven?
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are there any churches out there that are honest about the problems in the Bible? I haven't heard of one.

Churches tend to adopt or carry forward a broad view of the bible and teach within that framework. I think it would be difficult to include every relevant bit of info when teaching a point with a particular aim in mind. There’s nothing to stop the individual finding out more though, you can cover a lot more ground in individual study than can be easily included in church preaching or classes.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Not to the extent that you'd like them to be, NV. But this doesn't mean that there aren't Christian scholars who are as nearly as honest as you'd like to them to be. One such scholar is Kenton L. Sparks, and I'd say that he's kind of the Richard Carrier of Christians........but without all that polyamory stuff added in. ;)

Lawyers are fundamentally dishonest because they work backward from a conclusion rather than working forward from facts.

Oh did I say lawyers? I meant apologists.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: cvanwey
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Churches tend to adopt or carry forward a broad view of the bible and teach within that framework. I think it would be difficult to include every relevant bit of info when teaching a point with a particular aim in mind. There’s nothing to stop the individual finding out more though, you can cover a lot more ground in individual study than can be easily included in church preaching or classes.

Talk to a lot of atheists and you'll hear the same story. They were led to believe that the Bible is infallible. They discovered on their own this isn't true. Asked questions at church and people looked at them like they're Hitler.

Try it. Be blunt and ask a question about something obviously wrong with the Bible and see what happens.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: cvanwey
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Talk to a lot of atheists and you'll hear the same story. They were led to believe that the Bible is infallible. They discovered on their own this isn't true. Asked questions at church and people looked at them like they're Hitler.

Try it. Be blunt and ask a question about something obviously wrong with the Bible and see what happens.

I’ve got Christian friends I discuss different things with. I think also it depends what you mean by wrong - if my baseline for judging the Bible was that it is without error, written directly by the hand of God then there’s a lot that would be wrong with that idea. I think God’s way of working with and through people is complicated, and beyond my understanding, so I just piece it together as I go. I tend to take each book or part of the bible as it comes, on its own terms, trying to find out about the original context, purpose, meaning, what can be found out about thinking at the time from contemporary texts and so on, to arrive at a more rounded understanding.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
I’ve got Christian friends I discuss different things with. I think also it depends what you mean by wrong - if my baseline for judging the Bible was that it is without error, written directly by the hand of God then there’s a lot that would be wrong with that idea. I think God’s way of working with and through people is complicated, and beyond my understanding, so I just piece it together as I go. I tend to take each book or part of the bible as it comes, on its own terms, trying to find out about the original context, purpose, meaning, what can be found out about thinking at the time from contemporary texts and so on, to arrive at a more rounded understanding.

That makes logical sense, but I'm wondering...

When you read something like say..... Genesis; is it literal, figurative, metaphorical, other?

Next question.... If it's not literal, did you happen to think why you've concluded it is not actually literal?

I'm not trying to straw man you. I'm actually curious. Meaning, If you were stranded on a remote island, and only ever had the Bible as your guide for truth, would many of the same concepts, in which you now perceive as contextual or metaphoric, be as such with no other outside knowledge?

Furthermore, how might you reconcile the topics or subjects in which you may not agree with, if you happen to?

Furthermore, how do you happen to translate the verse 2 Timothy 3:16?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"


Thank you
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I just said that if the two accounts are put together, you have

In Nazareth
Not in Nazareth
Back in Nazareth
Except that Luke says they lived in Nazareth and went to Bethlehem for a short trip for a specific purpose. They intended to stay in an inn a night or two and go home. It was a business trip. Matthew indicates they were not from Nazareth, and they moved there later for their own safety.



Nothing about the reasons for any journey apart from the command to travel from Egypt to the land of Israel.
False. See Luke 2:1-7.


We can both speculate about what might be likely or unlikely regarding what Matthew might or might not have included, but I don’t see the point - you don’t know, and neither do I.

I am not speculating about what Matthew could have said. I am analyzing what he said.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, either is possible. Making the case for a ‘contradiction’ however puts something into Matthew’s text that isn’t there. A person might say ‘according to what I read into/assume about the text, I take it that Matthew meant....whatever’, but calling ‘contradiction’ where the comparison is between some specific piece of information on the one hand, and no information on the other, is to misunderstand what the word ‘contradiction’ means.
Again my purpose in bringing this up was to show that Luke had blatant disregard for correlating with Matthew. The popular reasoning is that he did not know about Matthew. But as many are finding there is a strong case for Luke having used Matthew as a source, then, even with Matthew 2 in front of him, he wrote Luke 2 with no regard to syncing with Matthew. You contend you have found a way to sync them. I disagree, but that is not the point. If he wanted people to believe Matthew 2, then Luke 2 should have been different.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Other scholars got to me before you did!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,211
9,972
The Void!
✟1,134,023.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Lawyers are fundamentally dishonest because they work backward from a conclusion rather than working forward from facts.

Oh did I say lawyers? I meant apologists.

What does any of what you've just said have to do with Kenton L. Sparks?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Other scholars got to me before you did!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,211
9,972
The Void!
✟1,134,023.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Again my purpose in bringing this up was to show that Luke had blatant disregard for correlating with Matthew. The popular reasoning is that he did not know about Matthew. But as many are finding there is a strong case for Luke having used Matthew as a source, then, even with Matthew 2 in front of him, he wrote Luke 2 with no regard to syncing with Matthew. You contend you have found a way to sync them. I disagree, but that is not the point. If he wanted people to believe Matthew 2, then Luke 2 should have been different.

....I've tended to think of the gospel of Luke as being a kind of Revisionism in the early church. The idea being that Luke looked at many other gospel accounts and thought they, even with Matthew and Mark, could be revised and improved upon through his additional journalistic type of investigation. Think "Lee Strobel" rather than "Arnold Toynbee."
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Tom 1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again my purpose in bringing this up was to show that Luke had blatant disregard for correlating with Matthew. The popular reasoning is that he did not know about Matthew. But as many are finding there is a strong case for Luke having used Matthew as a source, then, even with Matthew 2 in front of him, he wrote Luke 2 with no regard to syncing with Matthew. You contend you have found a way to sync them. I disagree, but that is not the point. If he wanted people to believe Matthew 2, then Luke 2 should have been different.

Yes, it does seem that Luke didn’t have a definite intent to correlate with Matthew. I’m not contending that they sync, just that they don’t contradict each other, i.e one has info that isn’t in the other. Why? Who knows? There’s a lot about why and for who they were written that is relevant, but that’s a lot to summarise. More generally, from what I’ve read about other ancient literature, and ancient biographies in particular, the kind of detail we might expect in a more recent work wasn’t given the same weight, and given details about the life of the person being written about may have been considered unimportant unless they served a particular purpose. An accepted formula for biographies at roughly (roughly as within a few centuries) the same time from what I can remember from reading about it was something like a brief intro with very few details about the person’s early life, mostly about any pedigree or education etc, the main bulk dedicated to the person’s public life, their acts and words and impact on society/posterity, then some brief details about their death. I suspect though that Luke thought about his version of events in some ways that are alien to us, with considerations that were natural at the time but would perhaps seem unusual to us now, and are inaccessible in any case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, it does seem that Luke didn’t have a definite intent to correlate with Matthew. I’m not contending that they sync, just that they don’t contradict each other, i.e one has info that isn’t in the other. Why? Who knows? There’s a lot about why and for who they were written that is relevant, but that’s a lot to summarise. More generally, from what I’ve read about other ancient literature, and ancient biographies in particular, the kind of detail we might expect in a more recent work wasn’t given the same weight, and given details about the life of the person being written about may have been considered unimportant unless they served a particular purpose. An accepted formula for biographies at roughly (roughly as within a few centuries) the same time from what I can remember from reading about it was something like a brief intro with very few details about the person’s early life, mostly about any pedigree or education etc, the main bulk dedicated to the person’s public life, their acts and words and impact on society/posterity, then some brief details about their death. I suspect though that Luke thought about his version of events in some ways that are alien to us, with considerations that were natural at the time but would perhaps seem unusual to us now, and are inaccessible in any case.
Please, please, this is just plain silliness. When I was talking about Luke not syncing with Matthew I wasn't complaining about him not listing every detail.

Again Luke says they lived in Nazareth and went to Bethlehem on a short business trip. Matthew implies they lived in judea and didn't move to nazareth until later.
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
And his revisions contradict Matthew.

What documents other than Matthew and Mark did he use? We don't know. Were they reliable? We don't know.

Patience my friend... Let the 'apologists' do their work. I'm sure you will receive an answer to your actual question, to set you straight, soon enough :)
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Hmm do you think that quoting sources and methods means that we can trust the accuracy of a piece of historical writing?
no. After all, you quote sources and I don't trust the accuracy of your history. ;)

There were all kinds of people writing nonsense in those days. There were numerous apocryphal books written about Jesus that even Christians say are false. So how do we know if we can trust a source we find? If the author identifies himself, and gives a credible claim to being a witness, that certainly helps. If he uses sources, and shows credible knowledge of how to find credible sources, that helps. But when the book is anonymous (like Luke), when he makes no claim to being an eyewitness (like Luke), when he shows no evidence of being able to differentiate true sources (like Luke), and makes no mention of a source (like Luke), all that is reason to question him.

When I show the flaws in Luke's credentials, I am not saying adequate credentials is everything. I am merely responding to those who were impressed with Luke's introduction.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BigDaddy4

It's a new season...
Sep 4, 2008
7,442
1,983
Washington
✟219,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And I'm still waiting for you to show me where Christian tradition holds that Luke wrote his gospel under the guidance of the holy spirit. You keep calling me dishonest, yet it's you who is the one completely fabricating details.
Whatever you want to call it, you have not lived up to your "100% granting". As such, it seems no answer will satisfy you except that which have prefabricated in your mind. Christians believe all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Luke himself says the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us what to say (Luke 12:12). Acts 2:17, written by Luke and quoting Joel 2:28 (here's your source reference, btw), says God will pour out his Spirit on all people.

There is no "fabricating of details" on my part.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Whatever you want to call it, you have not lived up to your "100% granting". As such, it seems no answer will satisfy you except that which have prefabricated in your mind. Christians believe all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Seeing as how this was written before the gospels, I think it's clearly referring to the Old Testament.

Luke himself says the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us what to say (Luke 12:12).

You're taking Luke 12:12 out of context.

11 And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the rulers, and the authorities, be not anxious how or what ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 for the Holy Spirit shall teach you in that very hour what ye ought to say.

That is absolutely NOT saying that Luke's source for his gospel is the holy spirit.


Acts 2:17, written by Luke and quoting Joel 2:28 (here's your source reference, btw), says God will pour out his Spirit on all people.

There is no "fabricating of details" on my part.

I fail to see how God pouring out his spirit on all people is equivalent to saying that Luke's source was the holy spirit.

If you think the idea of the holy spirit authoring the bible is so prevalent in Christian tradition, why is that idea hardly touched upon in this thread aside from your input?
 
Upvote 0

BigDaddy4

It's a new season...
Sep 4, 2008
7,442
1,983
Washington
✟219,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Seeing as how this was written before the gospels, I think it's clearly referring to the Old Testament.
I guess it depends on who you believe on the dates, but given Christian tradition, it applies to all Scripture.
According to this, they were written around the same approximate time frame. However, I know there are various opinions of when each book was written, but that does not mean it was not taught before then.
https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2016/02/when-was-each-book-of-the-bible-written/

I didn't say it was. I said the Holy Spirit teaches and guides us in all situations. This is just one example. I believe the Holy Spirit guided Luke to write these things down, just as the Spirit will teach as stated in Luke 12:11-12 above.

Reminder of Luke 1:3-4: With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

The audience of this letter is to a fellow disciple, not for some formal historical record or peer review complete with reference material.
I fail to see how God pouring out his spirit on all people is equivalent to saying that Luke's source was the holy spirit.
Luke has the Holy Spirit; per Scripture, the Holy Spirit guides and teaches us; Luke is inspired by the Holy Spirit to investigate everything he has heard or been taught and write that down for his fellow disciple. Luke probably had no idea it would be deemed as Scripture, but God did.
If you think the idea of the holy spirit authoring the bible is so prevalent in Christian tradition, why is that idea hardly touched upon in this thread aside from your input?
I cannot say why other don't touch upon it. That is why I jumped in. Perhaps one could say I was led by the Holy Spirit to do so, so God gets the glory.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I guess it depends on who you believe on the dates, but given Christian tradition, it applies to all Scripture.
According to this, they were written around the same approximate time frame. However, I know there are various opinions of when each book was written, but that does not mean it was not taught before then.
https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2016/02/when-was-each-book-of-the-bible-written/

Let's just provisionally assume that Luke's source was the holy spirit. Why, then, does he mention anonymous sources?

I didn't say it was. I said the Holy Spirit teaches and guides us in all situations. This is just one example. I believe the Holy Spirit guided Luke to write these things down, just as the Spirit will teach as stated in Luke 12:11-12 above.

And you still took it out of context. Jesus didn't say that to you, did he? He said it to his disciples.

If you want to take everything Jesus said to other people and apply it to yourself, consider selling all that you have and giving the money to the poor. After all, since you have access to the internet you are certainly rich by the standards of the world. If you aren't willing to do this, how do you know riches aren't a stumbling block to you? Don't you believe that if you do this, God will continue to watch over you? The birds of the air and the flowers of the field neither reap nor sow, yet God provides for them. Wouldn't he do the same for you? OK now that I have that out of the way, let's hear your excuses as to why the one thing Jesus said to other people applies to you but the other thing Jesus said to other people doesn't apply to you.

Reminder of Luke 1:3-4: With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

The audience of this letter is to a fellow disciple, not for some formal historical record or peer review complete with reference material.

Luke has the Holy Spirit; per Scripture, the Holy Spirit guides and teaches us; Luke is inspired by the Holy Spirit to investigate everything he has heard or been taught and write that down for his fellow disciple. Luke probably had no idea it would be deemed as Scripture, but God did.

If the holy spirit is what guided people to write the gospel, I'd expect the holy spirit to have compelled members of isolated American tribes to come up with a gospel. I see no reason that this wouldn't occur, given your model, and I see a large need for it. Yet it hasn't happened, and never will.

I cannot say why other don't touch upon it. That is why I jumped in. Perhaps one could say I was led by the Holy Spirit to do so, so God gets the glory.

So you say that what you're trumpeting here is Christian tradition even though the other Christians here won't defend it. Hmmm. Sounds a bit off to me.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When you read something like say..... Genesis; is it literal, figurative, metaphorical, other?

Generally, I think the best understanding of any passage can be reached by finding out what can be known about how it was understood by the original readers. The ultimate meaning and importance of a passage might be understood now as it was in ancient times, but meaning can be missed if we don’t understand how it is being expressed. I think there are different layers to that, e.g as a straightforward example, in David’s time the heart was thought of as the centre of thought within the body, with the roles of other organs and viscera in thinking maybe being taken more literally also, so whereas a modern reading might take passages like psalm 4:4 ‘...meditate in your heart’ as figurative, a contemporary reader would have understood this as a literal statement. More broadly, there are differences in thinking that affect whole cultures - our understanding in the West (broadly speaking) of biblical teaching is influenced by Western Philosophy, an influence that is simply unavoidable as our cultures are permeated by ways of thinking and perceiving the world that are very different from those of OT and NT times, influenced as they were by Eastern Philosophy (and other cultural norms/paradigms etc). Language also plays an important role in our conception of the world, e.g. our more abstract modern language can lead to more abstract and disconnected thinking, linking ideas up more indirectly perhaps, more rarefied thinking for want of another way of putting it, whereas the more concrete expression of ancient Hebrew rooted the scriptures more viscerally in everyday life and experience (see Thorleif Boman’s ‘Hebrew thought compared with Greek’ for a thorough exploration of this).

It’s important to understand, I think, that the bible wasn’t written in a vacuum; God worked through men and women who were influenced by their time and culture, as everyone is. God is able to and does use this, as in Paul’s sentiment in Acts 17:26-27 he works with us where we are. Whatever the process of ‘inspiration’ is and how it is to be understood that God communicates his message, it certainly isn’t as basic as God just zapping it directly into the minds of unthinking agents. Taking your example of Genesis the best argument I’ve come across for how the creation narrative should be understood is in John H Walton’s ‘The lost world of Genesis One’. Using a technical examination of the language used and a broad review of surviving literature and religious writings from roughly the same period, Walton argues that the understanding of the creation narrative to the original audience would have differed fundamentally to ours; in the modern world, when we think of ‘creation’ we assume material creation, basically, ‘what is all this stuff, where did it come from, how does it work’ etc. At the time of writing of the narrative, the thinking was more along the lines of ‘who gave order to everything, who is in charge, what roles do we have in it’. Read in a direct, word for word translation, as in the online ‘mechanical translation’, the actual creation of matter is not in the text, just the ordering of it -

In the origin Elohiym shaped the skies and the land,
and the land had existed in confusion and was unfilled, and darkness was upon the face of the deep water and the wind of Elohiym was fluttering upon the face of the waters

And so on. Taken literally then, the original meaning of the text was not that God created all things in 6 days (although debate of whether a literal series of 24hr days is what is meant from any creation perspective is nothing new, e.g. Maimonides and Augustine), but that it was God who provided order, that mankind and animals have different roles, among other things. The 7 days are a device, a way of assigning progression and relative importance. It’s ironic perhaps that it may be that the kind of YEC ideas that are still popular are essentially attempts to fit the creation narrative into a modern mindset, missing in the process what its actual meaning may be. And it’s the meaning that matters - whether a passage is taken to be literal, figurative or whatever what remains important is the meaning of the passage, and that can be missed if we insist on taking everything ‘literally’ - i.e simply reading the text and taking it to mean what we think, interpreted according to our modern, Western mindset.

Next question.... If it's not literal, did you happen to think why you've concluded it is not actually literal?

As above, digging into how things may have been understood at the time of writing has influenced my thinking about how a 21st C person’s ‘literal’ understanding may differ from that of a person living centuries or milenia ago. The text can be trusted to convey meaning - our personal interpretations of that meaning, not so much.

I'm not trying to straw man you. I'm actually curious. Meaning, If you were stranded on a remote island, and only ever had the Bible as your guide for truth, would many of the same concepts, in which you now perceive as contextual or metaphoric, be as such with no other outside knowledge?

I don’t know - I think that’s a question of volition. If all I had was the bible and no prior knowledge of it then I certainly could figure out what I needed to know, as in the essential knowledge, but it would depend on having the will to do that I think, which I might not have if I didn’t already have at least some knowledge of the bible. Outside knowledge certainly helps - my parents were atheists, and the first time I picked up a bible I couldn’t make any sense of it, it took some directed study to really start developing any understanding. I don’t think an academic understanding of the bible is essential for salvation by any means, but it does make study of the scriptures more rewarding.

Furthermore, how might you reconcile the topics or subjects in which you may not agree with, if you happen to?

I can’t think of anything specific. Understanding Jesus is a big general one though, and I’ve found that finding out more about the times he lived in on the earth has helped me to understand him better. Did you have any particular issues in mind?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0