Conservative Think Tank Shows Medicare For All Would Save Up To $2 Trillion over 10 Years

DavidFirth said:

So who is going to pay the 32.6 trillion? You guessed it, you and me will.

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Taxpayers are already paying that...

The US has the highest, per capita, public health expenditure rates in the developed world. There's not a single credible study out there that shows our current model to be superior to that of a single-payer based negotiator model. However, our population is duped into associating single-payer with some sort of "evil socialistic plot" to scare them out of voting for something that would be financially advantageous for all citizens, from the lazy bum all the way up to the guy making 7-figures.

The only people it wouldn't be good for are pharmaceutical companies and health insurance executives. (that fact alone should be a pretty strong indicator of who's stirring up the manufactured outage against single-payer)

DavidFirth said:

You can always move to Europe if you like that system. It will only cost you around 50% of your total income.

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Question:

By the time you get your paycheck, and you add up what you pay per month for health insurance, federal income tax, state income tax, local income tax, social security tax, medicare/medicaid tax, and pay sales tax on the goods and services you purchase...what do you suspect that percentage sum might be?


I wonder if you might making the mistake of not doing the true taxation comparison?

Often times, people compare the income tax from European countries (which is often a single line item tax, that's basically all of the things listed above consolidated into one line item) and comparing that consolidated percentage to only the US federal income tax and saying "See how much more they pay in taxes than we do?!?!"

RocksInMyHead said:

Link to the study: https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/blahous-costs-medicare-mercatus-working-paper-v1_1.pdf\

This was funded by the Koch brothers and the author is a noted conservative/libertarian researcher with the Mercatus Institute.

Basically, he shows that while Medicare For All will increase federal spending by ~$32.6 trillion over 10 years, it will reduce overall medical spending by around $2 trillion due to lower payments and reduced drug costs. To be fair, that's using a possibly unrealistic figure (the current Medicare rate) for the amounts provider payments will decrease, but even if those stay static at current levels, the increase is about $3 trillion over current spending, and there's no way that Medicare for All would pass without some level of payment reduction, so the truth will likely be somewhere in the middle.

And it's important to note that this is even with far wider coverage than the current model and taking into account increase usage of services due to affordability, so we will have a much healthier population.

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THe biggest problem with Single Payer type approaches is that TOO MANY PEOPLE WILL GET HEALTHCARE WHO HAVEN'T EARNED IT.

America is a Christian nation built on the belief that we are all rugged individuals. All of our forebears tamed this continent and wrested it from the beings who were mysteriously here before us. We turned it into a utopia where our shared Christian values of hard word and vast wealth are a shining beacon on a hill to all the world.

DavidFirth said:

At least I have a choice in the matter. If the government takes it out of my check I have no say so in the matter.

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Given that we already have no choice in healthcare matters (try to get a scan or a procedure done with your current insurance coverage without getting their prior authorization first, watch what happens), this myth of "choice" is just one perpetuated by those who are profiting immensely by keeping things they way they are...

Basically, what you're describing is this mentality:

DavidFirth said:

At least I have a choice in the matter. If the government takes it out of my check I have no say so in the matter.

You can always move to Europe if you like that system. It will only cost you around 50% of your total income.

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You DO realize that Americans pay, on average 2X more for healthcare per capita than just about any developed nation on earth and we don't get a significant improvement in results, right?

I've worked with a LOT of Europeans in my job. Spent a goodly amount of time in Western Europe and trust me: they are doing just fine. My coworker in Finland had a nice car and even a summer cabin on the Baltic...and he was just a mid-level manager. They are capitalists just like we are...the big difference is: they don't live in abject horror at the prospect of getting ill which could bankrupt an American. Just one illness.

ThatRobGuy said:

Taxpayers are already paying that...

The US has the highest, per capita, public health expenditure rates in the developed world. There's not a single credible study out there that shows our current model to be superior to that of a single-payer based negotiator model. However, our population is duped into associating single-payer with some sort of "evil socialistic plot" to scare them out of voting for something that would be financially advantageous for all citizens, from the lazy bum all the way up to the guy making 7-figures.

The only people it wouldn't be good for are pharmaceutical companies and health insurance executives. (that fact alone should be a pretty strong indicator of who's stirring up the manufactured outage against single-payer)

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Yeah, but if I pay for medical care through my taxes, someone who I don't approve of might get medical care on my dime. I would rather pay more for medical care than let some of my hard-earned tax dollars go to help the undeserving.

theQuincunx5 said:

THe biggest problem with Single Payer type approaches is that TOO MANY PEOPLE WILL GET HEALTHCARE WHO HAVEN'T EARNED IT.

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...yep, that's basically their attitude lol. I touched on it in another thread.

Rather than paying $120/month in taxes for their healthcare (via a pool that would cover everyone), they'd prefer to pay $200/month+ to a private insurance company for their healthcare, plus, the added benefit of being able to sleep soundly knowing that "some lazy bum's kid isn't getting their ear infection treated on my dime!!!"

theQuincunx5 said:

You DO realize that Americans pay, on average 2X more for healthcare per capita than just about any developed nation on earth and we don't get a significant improvement in results, right?

I've worked with a LOT of Europeans in my job. Spent a goodly amount of time in Western Europe and trust me: they are doing just fine. My coworker in Finland had a nice car and even a summer cabin on the Baltic...and he was just a mid-level manager. They are capitalists just like we are...the big difference is: they don't live in abject horror at the prospect of getting ill which could bankrupt an American. Just one illness.

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"...but...but...choice, free-market, liberty, Milton Friedman said!...and all that stuff!"

Speedwell said:

Yeah, but if I pay for medical care through my taxes, someone who I don't approve of might get medical care on my dime. I would rather pay more for medical care than let some of my hard-earned tax dollars go to help the undeserving.

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The America First bible even confirms this view. It's in Proverbs, the one that says, "He who dies with the most toys wins." It's right there underneath all the verses condemning the poor and praising those who persecute them. Jesus even literally says that everything should be taken from the one that has the least and given to the one that has the most.

bekkilyn said:

The America First bible even confirms this view. It's in Proverbs, the one that says, "He who dies with the most toys wins." It's right there underneath all the verses condemning the poor and praising those who persecute them. Jesus even literally says that everything should be taken from the one that has the least and given to the one that has the most.

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Every office in Congress has this Bible and they thump it every day! Democrat or Republican, they all do the bidding of the Insurance and Sick Care lobbies that shove money into their pockets. Just as in every other issue, the people don't matter, only their own personal gain.

DavidFirth said:

So who is going to pay the 32.6 trillion? You guessed it, you and me will.

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No worries. We’ll cut taxes on the top 2% and the economy will boom and we’ll stop getting old and sick. Easy.

cow451 said:

No worries. We’ll cut taxes on the top 2% and the economy will boom and we’ll stop getting old and sick. Easy.

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But see, while wealth transfer *to* the top 2% would be okay and fully biblical, wealth transfer *from* the 2% to anyone else would be communism. That's just the way it works in America.

ThatRobGuy said:

By the time you get your paycheck, and you add up what you pay per month for health insurance, federal income tax, state income tax, local income tax, social security tax, medicare/medicaid tax, and pay sales tax on the goods and services you purchase...what do you suspect that percentage sum might be?

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I love how you throw in sales tax, state and local taxes, etc. Most of those aren't deducted off your paycheck and have nothing to do with single payer. We're talking strictly federal income tax withholding to pay for a bloated, fraud infested healthcare system like Medicare. Currently, we spend $672 billion annually on Medicare and according to this flawed study, it will go up over $3.2 TRILLION annually. And yes, in socialist countries with gov healthcare, they do in fact pay 40-60% of their gross income in taxes. In Denmark a person earning more than $55K per year pays 60.2% in taxes! And it doesn't end there. The cost of living for most everything else is also higher.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Denmark/United-States/Cost-of-living

It costs more than double to buy a car in Denmark compared to the US because of the taxes on that and no, it's not deducted from their paychecks.

RocksInMyHead said:

Guess what, you and me are already paying that in the form of health insurance premiums and/or reduced pay (employer-backed healthcare).

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Source?

bekkilyn said:

It seems the only people who complain about the health care in countries where health care is a right for all citizens are the people who live here in the U.S. The people living in those countries are typically very grateful indeed that they have what they have and that they aren't us.

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Several years ago a major TV network in Canada ran a major series and vote to determine Canada's greatest hero. Hundreds of nominations were received and then whittled down to ten or twelve. They then prepared an hour long documentary on the life and achievements of each one of them. Canadians voted overwhelmingly for Tommy Douglas, the firey little Baptist preacher turned socialist politician, who is regarded as the 'Father of Medicare' in Canada. It is my sincere hope that the USA will some day have a universal medicare system comparable to what we enjoy in Canada.

Veritas said:

I love how you throw in sales tax, state and local taxes, etc. Most of those aren't deducted off your paycheck and have nothing to do with single payer.

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State and local taxes aren't deducted off of your paycheck? Mine are.

My point was to illustrate that this notion of "in the Nordic countries, the income tax is 60%, it's way lower in the US" is often misguides as people try to compare the consolidated comprehensive tax rate of a place like Denmark or Iceland, to only the single "Federal Income Tax Withholding" on one's paycheck here in the US.

Veritas said:

In Denmark a person earning more than $55K per year pays 60.2% in taxes! And it doesn't end there. The cost of living for most everything else is also higher.

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So you're just flat out wrong here...

The way you're describing it is that a person making $55k USD is paying $33k of that to income tax. That's not accurate at all.

That's the top rate applied to income over $55k, and you're not taking into account their standard deduction, tax credits, etc...


Let's actually do an apples to apples comparison here shall we? We'll go with a respectable salary... Not rich, not poor...someone doing a little better than average...

A person making $85k USD / 550 DKK

In Denmark their total consolidated tax burden (includes all income and property tax) is 220 DKK (or 40%)

In the US (using the ADP tax calculator, a quite accurate tool)


So, roughly 30% to their 40%.

...but here's where other factors kick in.

You no longer have those line items for medical, dental, and vision being taken out, and you no longer have a 5-figure burden when you or your kid wants to go to college.

For me personally, I get dinged $220/month for my healthcare... ~2600/year...for coverage that doesn't kick in until I meet a deductible ...and I got the sheer joy of paying back over 30,000 for my education.


If it was as bad over there as the conservative pundits claim, there would be a mass exodus out of the country and they wouldn't be topping the list of "Countries with the Best Quality of Life"

JackRT said:

Several years ago a major TV network in Canada ran a major series and vote to determine Canada's greatest hero. Hundreds of nominations were received and then whittled down to ten or twelve. They then prepared an hour long documentary on the life and achievements of each one of them. Canadians voted overwhelmingly for Tommy Douglas, the firey little Baptist preacher turned socialist politician, who is regarded as the 'Father of Medicare' in Canada. It is my sincere hope that the USA will some day have a universal medicare system comparable to what we enjoy in Canada.

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Why? I'm not far from the border and we get a lot of Canadians desperate for surgeries, treatment and diagnostics. I had a high-end MRI (few in CA) less than 2 years ago. I just called my doc it was scheduled days later. It wasn't an emergency or anything. I just wanted it. Doesn't happen in Canada. You can keep your system.