Will many people enter heaven?

ewq1938 · Jul 30, 2018

throughfireytrial said:
No, one must be very careful not to add or subtract from Scripture.

Anyone who says they aren't men, or from the 12 tribes or there isn't exactly 144,000 are changing the text. Why give me the warning when I am the only one not suggesting what it says is not what it means?

throughfiierytrial · Jul 30, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Correct.

In the false doctrines and false teachings/teachers saying otherwise, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed - agendas and/or other doctrines or dogmas or teachings that go even farther from the truth along with mixing up and confusing the obvious simple passages.

I have NEVER heard two millennialists agree on their interpretations and add and twist a good bit to make things "come out right". Quite funny. I bow out with you two.

throughfiierytrial · Jul 30, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Anyone who says they aren't men, or from the 12 tribes or there isn't exactly 144,000 are changing the text. Why give me the warning when I am the only one not suggesting what it says is not what it means?

You actually misunderstood...but if the shoe fits...
I was meaning there is one interpretation and it is an interpretation because this is a revelation which needs to be made plain. This was in response to your objection of there being room for misinterpretation when "interpreting"!

ewq1938 · Jul 30, 2018

144,000 virgin males from the 12 tribes (((MODERN INTERPRETATION APPLIED)))) turns into 56 men and women and one cat, non virgins, only 3 are from the 12 tribes

sample interpretation used just to prove a point how interpretation can change what's written into something God never even thought of let alone inspired to be written! As Jesus said...leave them, they are blind guides.

throughfiierytrial · Jul 30, 2018

ewq1938 said:
144,000 virgin males from the 12 tribes (((MODERN INTERPRETATION APPLIED)))) turns into 56 men and women and one cat, non virgins, only 3 are from the 12 tribes

sample interpretation used just to prove a point how interpretation can change what's written into something God never even thought of let alone inspired to be written!

As Jesus said...leave them, they are blind guides.

ewq1938 · Jul 31, 2018

throughfireytrial said:
As Jesus said...leave them, they are blind guides.

Excellent idea! I'll add that to my post, thanks!

timewerx · Jul 31, 2018

ewq1938 said:
That isn't true. As long as they live a moral life they can enjoy their money all they want.

What about 1 John 2:15-17?
If we accummulate and enjoy things we are told NOT to love... :mmh:

Mat 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
Mat 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
Mat 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
Mat 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

As a rich disciple of Christ, Joseph would have provided exceptional help to the ministry of Christ in terms of money. Otherwise, the other disciples would complain (as they did one time with Mary who used expensive bottle of perfume to Jesus).

The provision of linen and the expensive perfume is only for that very special and sorrowful occassion as their master and savior is about to leave them.

ewq1938 · Jul 31, 2018

timewerx said:
What about 1 John 2:15-17?

Obviously non-applicable.

If we accummulate and enjoy things we are told NOT to love...

Was Job rich and yet moral? The rich man that gave his grave to Christ?

Clearly there is a rich and moral kind of life.

As a rich disciple of Christ, Joseph would have provided exceptional help to the ministry of Christ in terms of money. Otherwise, the other disciples would complain (as they did one time with Mary who used expensive bottle of perfume to Jesus).

Judas? lol

The provision of linen and the expensive perfume is only for that very special and sorrowful occassion as their master and savior is about to leave them.

And a rich man's grave that would have been expensive.

Chinchilla · Jul 31, 2018

timewerx said:
It doesn't mean literally everything.

The disciples are also said to have left everything to follow Christ (Matthew 19:27)

But the disciples still kept some possessions, including a fishing boat. At least one of them went back to their house - and that is Christ's beloved disciple. Some of them including Peter went back to fishing and making some money.

Jesus did not rebuke any of them for that, upon meeting with them after resurrection.

You can have things that meet genuine needs like a house or car, etc. But as a lover of God and Christ, they will be modest.

Even if you make a lot of money, spend modestly on modest things, forsake leisure so you can give more money to help our brothers and sisters (in Christ) who are in need - this is the fruit of loving God - Matthew 25:40

Yea that's my point , so why do you claim that somebody rich can't be Christian ?
Now you made yourself a judge and according to you if somebody has that much he fallen short of being Christian but if somebody has this amount it's ok.
It's not Scriptural .

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 31, 2018

James 1:10 - MSG - And when the arrogant rich are brought down to ...
https://www.biblestudytools.com/msg/james/1-10.html
James 1:10 And when the arrogant rich are brought down to size, cheer! Prosperity is as short-lived as a wildflower, so don't ever count on it.

timewerx · Jul 31, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Yea that's my point , so why do you claim that somebody rich can't be Christian ?

You can be a rich Christian in terms of having large income.

But the purpose of such large income is to help our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in great need or distress (1 John 3:17-18)

Not for spending most of our money and time on things we should not love (1 John 2:15-17)

Chinchilla · Jul 31, 2018

timewerx said:
You can be a rich Christian in terms of having large income.

But the purpose of such large income is to help our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in great need or distress (1 John 3:17-18)

Not for spending most of our money and time on things we should not love (1 John 2:15-17)

Yea that's what one should do but don't have to and it's his/her choice and his/her lack of rewards not lack of being saved .

hedrick · Jul 31, 2018

bcbsr said:
What do you mean by "all". Everyone who ever lived? Every Jew who ever lived?

This and 1 Cor 15:20 ff both seem to be universal visions. 1 Cor 15 is pretty much a universal reconciliation. It has God's enemies under his feet. However Paul seems to be thinking here of cosmic powers. His vision doesn't include and isn't consistent with most of humanity being tormented. That wouldn't be the kind of victory he portrays.

In light of Jesus' teachings about judgement, there are probably exceptions. I don't think it's plausible to understand "all" as "all kinds," though. As all died in Adam all will be made alive in Christ. Did all kinds but not every individual die in Adam?

throughfiierytrial · Jul 31, 2018

hedrick said:
This and 1 Cor 15:20 ff both seem to be universal visions. 1 Cor 15 is pretty much a universal reconciliation. It has God's enemies under his feet. However Paul seems to be thinking here of cosmic powers. His vision doesn't include and isn't consistent with most of humanity being tormented. That wouldn't be the kind of victory he portrays.

In light of Jesus' teachings about judgement, there are probably exceptions. I don't think it's plausible to understand "all" as "all kinds," though. As all died in Adam all will be made alive in Christ. Did all kinds but not every individual die in Adam?

If I understand you correctly you do not believe that the hell spoken of in Scripture includes torment? What do you do with all those passages speaking of such?

hedrick · Jul 31, 2018

throughfireytrial said:
If I understand you correctly you do not believe that the hell spoken of in Scripture includes torment? What do you do with all those passages speaking of such?

There have been lots of discussions in controversial theology about this. In this forum it’s not permitted. Hint: look at the OT background of the NT language.

RaymondG · Jul 31, 2018

timewerx said:
It's actually important that you know who you are "inviting into your house":

2 John 1:10-11
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

This could also be talking about evil thoughts being allowed into your body......e.g. thoughts of wrong that others may or may not be committing... thoughts that, if dwelt upon long enough, will lead us to the same place we believe they are going.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood. I fear you may be to fascinated with outward appearances.....

throughfiierytrial · Jul 31, 2018

hedrick said:
There have been lots of discussions in controversial theology about this. In this forum it’s not permitted. Hint: look at the OT background of the NT language.

I take the entire Bible into counsel when considering all topics...to the best of my ability.
Thanks anyway!

RaymondG · Jul 31, 2018

timewerx said:
But a rich person cannot remain living in luxury and leisure if he or she loves God more than his or her own life.

God gives the rich man his riches..... How can you say that one, who knows this, cant use what God gives him as he likes. God said he would pour out blessing so much that you wont have room to receive it. over flowing! Is God wrong for doing this to some people who believe as allow it? Should we tell God No! keep your blessings? His is actually what you are doing, by speaking against it.

hedrick · Jul 31, 2018

throughfireytrial said:
If I understand you correctly you do not believe that the hell spoken of in Scripture includes torment? What do you do with all those passages speaking of such?

I didn't actually intend to comment on eternal torment. This discussion is about the number of saved. Paul says both that all will be made alive in Christ, and that the rulers and authorities will be put under his feet. That seems to say that there are exceptions to the "all." But the exceptions are people like rulers who are part of abusive power structure of the enemy. Just what happens to these people isn't the subject of this passage, nor did I intend to comment. My point was that Paul's vision of all being made alive in Christ is not consistent with 90% of the population being tortured. Whether it's consistent with the rulers being tortured forever is another question which I don't think we can answer from this passage (and maybe not from Paul at all).

RaymondG · Jul 31, 2018

timewerx said:
You can be a rich Christian in terms of having large income.

But the purpose of such large income is to help our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in great need or distress (1 John 3:17-18)

Not for spending most of our money and time on things we should not love (1 John 2:15-17)

You think about money and judge others based of their income and possessions, way too much. People who dont love money, do not do this. You place people on a road to heaven or hell, based solely on how much money they have and how they spend it. How important must money be to you if it can be the sole reason for such decisions...? You should ponder why it is......

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