The question of lying

frater_domus · Jul 28, 2018

Is lying ever justified? Let me give you two examples.

The first one is fictional. In the book Les Miserables from Victor Hugo, the prisoner Valjean, who was on parole, stole silver from a priest. However, when he was caught and brought before the priest, he made up a lie and said that he gave the silver to Valjean. This touched Valjean so much, that he dedicated his life to God after that. If the priest would've told the truth, Valjean would've perished, but through his lie Valjean's life and soul were saved. Did the priest sin?

The second example is real. The other day, there was a parkinson patient, who was suffering side effects from his medication, which causes symptoms similar to schizophrenia. He was aggressive at first, then he despaired and was calling for his wife, wanting to ser her one last time. It was important, that the took another pill, which is ease the symptoms, but he wouldn't. The only way I managed to calm him down, so he could get take his pill and not hurt himself as well as him not becoming a problem for the next shift was for me to lie to him and to say I spoke with his wife and she told me that he needs to take his pill and that she would visit him tomorrow. He believed me, took it and calmed down. Chances are good, that he will not recall his instance. These sort of situations are common with parkinson patients. Still, I told him lie with a clear intention of doing so. Did I sin?

I know that the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment is falsy translated, as the action is question is murder (taking an innocent life with a malicious intent). However, I do not think this is the case with lying, unless "giving false testimony" is different than lying. None of the above had a malicious intent and were both meant to help the person.

Thoughts?

Quid est Veritas? · Jul 28, 2018

Jewish culture makes a distinction between lying and bearing false witness. The latter is prohibited in the Decalogue. So it is lying to authority or lying to cover yourself or such. Lying for the good of someone else is thus not prohited thereby, as it has to do with Loving your neighbour.

The priest's actions are questionable though, as he is giving false witness to Authority. This is perhaps a merciful act, though, so as there is no malicious or selfish intent, and it is done for the good of your fellow man, I think this is more the Spirit of the Law than the Letter thereof. It is perhaps akin to Jesus working on the Sabbath, by healing the lame and such.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 28, 2018

Yahweh never says "giving false witness" is identical nor the same as "lying".

Already in recent threads, several examples of "lying" that was not sin were posted from Scripture,
as
well as when it is a fatal sin - Ananias and Saphira dropped dead at the word of Yahweh thru Paul when they were confronted directly, for they had "lied to God" ....

Job3315 · Jul 28, 2018

frater_domus said:
Is lying ever justified? Let me give you two examples.

The first one is fictional. In the book Les Miserables from Victor Hugo, the prisoner Valjean, who was on parole, stole silver from a priest. However, when he was caught and brought before the priest, he made up a lie and said that he gave the silver to Valjean. This touched Valjean so much, that he dedicated his life to God after that. If the priest would've told the truth, Valjean would've perished, but through his lie Valjean's life and soul were saved. Did the priest sin?

The second example is real. The other day, there was a parkinson patient, who was suffering side effects from his medication, which causes symptoms similar to schizophrenia. He was aggressive at first, then he despaired and was calling for his wife, wanting to ser her one last time. It was important, that the took another pill, which is ease the symptoms, but he wouldn't. The only way I managed to calm him down, so he could get take his pill and not hurt himself as well as him not becoming a problem for the next shift was for me to lie to him and to say I spoke with his wife and she told me that he needs to take his pill and that she would visit him tomorrow. He believed me, took it and calmed down. Chances are good, that he will not recall his instance. These sort of situations are common with parkinson patients. Still, I told him lie with a clear intention of doing so. Did I sin?

I know that the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment is falsy translated, as the action is question is murder (taking an innocent life with a malicious intent). However, I do not think this is the case with lying, unless "giving false testimony" is different than lying. None of the above had a malicious intent and were both meant to help the person.

Thoughts?

My favorite Bible version is called Dios Habla Hoy (God Speaks Today). I like that version because the language flows and its easy to understand. One thing that caught my attention is that on Exodus 20:16 says: “No digas mentiras en perjuicio de tu prójimo.” Which translates: “Do not lie to damage/harm your neighbor”.

I heard a Pastor say that if there’s a thief in his house and the thief asks where his kids are hidden, that he will definitely lie. It got me thinking about what was right to do and then I found that verse.

I work with patients with dementia and sometimes I need to throw a little white lie to calm them down as well.

Be at peace!
‭

Chinchilla · Jul 28, 2018

frater_domus said:
Is lying ever justified? Let me give you two examples.

The first one is fictional. In the book Les Miserables from Victor Hugo, the prisoner Valjean, who was on parole, stole silver from a priest. However, when he was caught and brought before the priest, he made up a lie and said that he gave the silver to Valjean. This touched Valjean so much, that he dedicated his life to God after that. If the priest would've told the truth, Valjean would've perished, but through his lie Valjean's life and soul were saved. Did the priest sin?

The second example is real. The other day, there was a parkinson patient, who was suffering side effects from his medication, which causes symptoms similar to schizophrenia. He was aggressive at first, then he despaired and was calling for his wife, wanting to ser her one last time. It was important, that the took another pill, which is ease the symptoms, but he wouldn't. The only way I managed to calm him down, so he could get take his pill and not hurt himself as well as him not becoming a problem for the next shift was for me to lie to him and to say I spoke with his wife and she told me that he needs to take his pill and that she would visit him tomorrow. He believed me, took it and calmed down. Chances are good, that he will not recall his instance. These sort of situations are common with parkinson patients. Still, I told him lie with a clear intention of doing so. Did I sin?

I know that the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment is falsy translated, as the action is question is murder (taking an innocent life with a malicious intent). However, I do not think this is the case with lying, unless "giving false testimony" is different than lying. None of the above had a malicious intent and were both meant to help the person.

Thoughts?

I heared of story about monks which had Scriptures made out of silver and the name of God was written in Gold aswell as NT Jesus's name .

Hitler send his troops to get the Scriptures , they all lied by telling they don't know where the Scciptures are . Most of them couldn't even read the Scriptures in thier own language .

Should they guard the Scriptures risking life by lying or not lie and give them away ?
Even if the story is false , there is still the problem left . Should they lie or shouldn't ?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 28, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Even if the story is false , there is still the problem left

If the story is false, (or true?), but told to convey a harmful lie, then it is indeed a problem.....

mukk_in · Jul 28, 2018

Lying, especially among believers, is always wrong (Colossians 3:9). Peace in Christ

.

Saint Steven · Jul 28, 2018

Job3315 said:
My favorite Bible version is called Dios Habla Hoy (God Speaks Today). I like that version because the language flows and its easy to understand. One thing that caught my attention is that on Exodus 20:16 says: “No digas mentiras en perjuicio de tu prójimo.” Which translates: “Do not lie to damage/harm your neighbor”.

I heard a Pastor say that if there’s a thief in his house and the thief asks where his kids are hidden, that he will definitely lie. It got me thinking about what was right to do and then I found that verse.

I work with patients with dementia and sometimes I need to throw a little white lie to calm them down as well.

Be at peace!
‭

That's a great post. Thanks.
The motive is a key issue with false information given.

Giving false information is like weaving a spider's web.
The more false information given, the greater likelihood that the teller will be caught in their own web. Therefore, a lifestyle of giving false information, even when motives are claimed to be pure, is a dangerous thing. Every statement made needs to be maintained, which requires a lot of work, and becomes burdensome.

Being truthful in ones words is always the best policy.
Some situations will present us with an option to give false information. A need to substitute opacity for transparency. Especially if being transparent will violate a vow to secrecy, or reveal information that needs to be kept private. We take that route at our own peril. May God grant us the wisdom to know when to use that option and when to be transparent. Very wise to ask God in a quick prayer, "Lord, what shall I say?"

On a practical note, it's always fair to ask the person "interrogating" you, "Why do you ask?" Thus putting the motive burden on them. Or, my personal favorite, "If I told you that, I would have to kill you." (humor)

frater_domus · Jul 28, 2018

mukk_in said:
Lying, especially among believers, is always wrong (Colossians 3:9). Peace in Christ.

So the priest should've let Valjean be condemned and shattering any chance of him turning to God? I agree that it was an act of mercy and born of love. I have a hard time imagening Jesus doing that. I want to point to 1 Cor 10:31 and another passage that I can not recall on the fly (about whether one marries or abstains). It shows us that whatever we do, that we do it with God. If lying is the price to spread love, isn't it worth it? It was not for self.
Or should I have let the patient trash about and endure mental agony? How is that loving? That's following a law for the sake if it, just as the Pharisees did. Besides, we are under grace, not law. The law exists so we can see how much is forgiven (Paul talked about it in Romans, I believe).

The verdict is that I disagree. Lying for selfish gain and malicious intent is a no go. But when it serves to avoid a greater evil? Sure that is worth it.

mukk_in · Jul 28, 2018

Excellent argument. Hopefully, the Lord will accept it. I'll have to disagree as well, and I stand with Colossians 3:9. I don't recall the Lord ever lying, so that something good may happen

.

frater_domus · Jul 28, 2018

mukk_in said:
Excellent argument. Hopefully, the Lord will accept it. I'll have to disagree as well, and I stand with Colossians 3:9. I don't recall the Lord ever lying, so that something good may happen.

Well, it is the argument about the lesser of two evils. However, we must not forgey, that we live in an imperfect world. We must pray, so that the Spirit tells us through our conscience. Every situation is unique and it is hard generalize.

Saint Steven · Jul 28, 2018

mukk_in said:
Excellent argument. Hopefully, the Lord will accept it. I'll have to disagree as well, and I stand with Colossians 3:9. I don't recall the Lord ever lying, so that something good may happen.

Now there's a scary topic.
I have always wondered about this. Tell me what you think. Thanks.
Compare these scriptures. (apologies to anyone who might take offense at this)

John 18:20
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.

Matthew 13:10-13
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Luke 8:10
He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, “‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

mukk_in · Jul 28, 2018

The parables were truthful, and actually quite clear. That many didn't understand them, although they should have, is obvious (Matthew 13:13). Was that because God didn't open their hearts, would be another debate. But, no lie ever came out of the Lord's mouth. Even the riddles were truthful. Good day, Sir

.

Saint Steven · Jul 28, 2018

mukk_in said:
The parables were truthful, and actually quite clear. That many didn't understand them, although they should have, is obvious (Matthew 13:13). Was that because God didn't open their hearts, would be another debate. But, no lie ever came out of the Lord's mouth. Even the riddles were truthful. Good day, Sir.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. But please ask yourself this.

Is something true simply because it has to be true? Or is there more to it than that? It seems that you have brushed this whole situation aside without really considering it. I am not pressing you to answer me. But please consider what you are doing. Good day to you as well.

Mark 4:10-11
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.
11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

John 18:20
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.

Saint Steven · Jul 28, 2018

Here's a question:

What guided Rahab of Jericho to do what she did for the Israelite spies? (See Joshua chapter 2)

James 2:25
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute
considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies
and sent them off in a different direction?

Saint Steven · Jul 28, 2018

mukk_in said:
The parables were truthful, and actually quite clear. That many didn't understand them, although they should have, is obvious (Matthew 13:13). …

No, the parables were not clear. And No, they didn't understand them. And Yes, the understanding was hidden from them.

mukk_in · Jul 28, 2018

The Lord Jesus wasn't Rahab. Yes, she is recorded in the annals of faith. Abraham and David who both lied in the interest of self preservation (Abraham about his wife Sara, and David acting like a madman) are also giants of faith. However, my role model is the Lord Himself. No, I haven't brushed it aside, Sir. Your assessment is inaccurate.

The parables were crystal clear to me when I first read them (even before I was saved). As the Apostle Paul said all that one needs to know about God can be gleaned from nature and those who didn't understand had no excuse (Roman's 1:20). Besides, the Prophets who preceded the Lord were quite explicit and clear. Yet, the people refused to repent. My guess is that was why the Lord spoke in riddles, because the Prophets had already spelt it out very clearly and were rejected.

This debate was about whether Jesus ever lied, not whether the gospels were deliberately hidden. I still stand by the initial response. No, Jesus never lied. Just because something appears encrypted, doesn't mean that the code itself is a lie. Similarly, just because one doesn't understand the message doesn't make the Messenger a liar.

You may need a Theologian for a better debate. I'm not one and have to leave it at that. No, I'm not offended. Good day, again, Sir

.

frater_domus · Jul 29, 2018

@mukk_in So if Jesus was all about the law, why did he work on the sabbath? Who would not retrieve the sheep from the pit on sabbath? Same about lying, who wouldn't tell a lie to help a fellow man, should there be no other way?
Personally, I wouldn't call someone like that a liar or a cheat. It doesn't sit right with me to accuse someone of that, if all he did was to lovingly save another person. In fact, it is even less self serving that getting that sheep from the pit.
I believe that you may be a little bit caught up on the fact that were talking about lying, instead the situation and motivation.

Besides, you dodged my question. I'd like you to answer. According to you, what should the priest have done and what should I have done?

mukk_in · Jul 29, 2018

I only intended to defend the reputation of Christ, and what I thought Colossians said about lying. Besides, I don't have an answer. But, the Lord does. I'll pray that He'll give you the answer you seek. I'm sorry if I misread your thread and wasted your time. I only intended to present what I thought Jesus would have done in that situation. Feel free to disagree with me. As to whether the Priest had done the correct thing is for God Almighty to judge. Kindly excuse me and God bless

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Saint Steven · Jul 29, 2018

mukk_in said:
The Lord Jesus wasn't Rahab. Yes, she is recorded in the annals of faith. Abraham and David who both lied in the interest of self preservation (Abraham about his wife Sara, and David acting like a madman) are also giants of faith. However, my role model is the Lord Himself. No, I haven't brushed it aside, Sir. Your assessment is inaccurate.

The parables were crystal clear to me when I first read them (even before I was saved). As the Apostle Paul said all that one needs to know about God can be gleaned from nature and those who didn't understand had no excuse (Roman's 1:20). Besides, the Prophets who preceded the Lord were quite explicit and clear. Yet, the people refused to repent. My guess is that was why the Lord spoke in riddles, because the Prophets had already spelt it out very clearly and were rejected.

This debate was about whether Jesus ever lied, not whether the gospels were deliberately hidden. I still stand by the initial response. No, Jesus never lied. Just because something appears encrypted, doesn't mean that the code itself is a lie. Similarly, just because one doesn't understand the message doesn't make the Messenger a liar.

You may need a Theologian for a better debate. I'm not one and have to leave it at that. No, I'm not offended. Good day, again, Sir.

Thanks for your testimony about the parables being clear to you from the start.

But here's the thing. That is not true in general. The reason you understood them was because God gave you insight.

You are approaching this discussion from an emotional stance. You are not allowing reason to reveal what is actually written in the text for all to see.

Just to be clear, my intention is not to call Jesus a liar. My intention is to approach a difficulty in scripture and try to understand what it means. In the same way I try to understand why Rahab was justified in her actions.

I think we become looked in a prison of social mores that dictate our understanding of things. We are so quick to call any misstatement a lie, and label the teller as a liar. Thus attempting to bring shame on them.

It is recorded that Jesus told the religious leaders that nothing was said in secret. That everything was said openly. However, the same scripture tells us that the meanings were hidden, and this to fulfill prophecy. And that things were explained in secret. Revealed to the disciples but to no one else. I want to understand what this means.

Luke 10:21-24
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.
24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

The question of lying

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You can call me Steve

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