OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

SeventyOne said:

The seal has a time constraint given. It's not "until we sin" or "until we walk away", it's until the day of redemption. Any assumed point before that makes the passage out to be claiming a falsehood.

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No again, as you are pulling the wrong implication from the analogy. The seal itself doesn't keep a person in the contract. For example, imagined a 'sealed' will and testament to be opened after death. It guarantees the promises to those who will inherit and protects the estate. But if a child disowns their inheritance? The 'seal' on the will no longer protects any promises for that child. If a person disowns God? The reject the Spirit and cannot claim the seal.

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

The passage isn't about our inability to reject the Spirit, but rather how we should seek to walk by the Spirit and not grieve the Spirit because the Spirit is the seal of our future inheritance. Redemption is the final *purpose* of the seal, but we have to have faith to be sealed by the Spirit.

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." Rom 8:11

Spend a bit more time in Hebrews. You will see the people described in those passages are not the born again. The chapter 6 passage describe those who knew the truth mentally, knowledge only, and keep reading in chapter 10 as it goes on to show again different peoples in scope, those who shrink back, and those who do not, we the writer states we are not of those who shrink back. Believers are those who do continue in faith, thus resolving any such potential conflicts and allowing one to rightly divide when different people groups are being referenced.

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Did you read the links I gave? There is no possible way to arrive at the view these people merely had 'mental' knowledge of truth from the Greek words themselves, the context, or parallel scriptures.

Heb 6:46: While some (not all) Greek terms in the passage can have a range of meanings, context limits these. And when some explicit terms which can only accurately describe Christians are used, with no contextual reason given to restrict other terms, then it makes no sense to restrict some terms to non-Christians and then just ignore the explicit ones.

Briefly, with parallel scriptures given to show that taken together these terms must refer to former Christians: These Christians had seen the light (II Cor 4:6), ate of the heavenly gift (John 6:33), were made partakers in the Holy Spirit (I Cor 12:13, II Peter 1:4, Eph 3:6, Heb 3:14, Col 1:12, Phil 1:7, Eph 4:4, etc), tasted the goodness of the word of God (Psalm 38:4) shared in spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:4), and repented (Acts 2:38), but then fell away.

If only the phrase 'seen the light' was used, then maybe it could be argued that only non-Christians were meant. However, the explicit term 'were made partakers of the Holy Spirit' was used - which circumvents any attempt to make this apply to non-Christians. Literally, the Greek term métoxos means to share in with change afterward, that is change due to sharing. The term right before is genēthentas - showing that they were given a new birth and transitioned from one state to another! Are unbelievers made partakers of the Holy Spirit, transitioning to a new life and changing due to the indwelling Spirit? Of course not!

Another explicit term the passage uses is 'having fallen away.' This is the Greek parapiptó, which explicitly refers to falling away from something you were a close participant in - not something you were merely close to joining.

From help word studies:

"3895 parapíptō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 4098 /píptō, "to fall") – properly, fall away, after being close-beside; to defect (abandon).
3895 /parapíptō ("fallen from a close position") refers to a close-follower of Christ who becomes a defector. It suggests this person (at least at one time) was a believer (note the para). 3895 (parapíptō) is only used in Heb 6:6."

Taken all together in context, with parallel scripture, and with the two explicit Greek terms used which cannot apply to unbelievers, it is clear the passage is describing people who were once Christians.
[Question: What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/28836?ori=167400]

And Heb 10:26 states that these people didn't merely have 'mental knowledge' as it uses the term *epignosis* - the term for our experiential knowledge/personal relationship with Christ. The very text is opposed to your insistence that it must be 'mental' knowledge only! (See II Pet 1:3-11 for one example among many as how our epignosis/true knowledge/relationship with Christ is contrasted with gnosis (knowledge in general.)

Diving in farther to Heb 10 (since you apparently did not read links):

Audience:
The author is speaking to believers, to 'brothers and sisters' who have confidence to enter the Holy of Holies through the blood of Christ (Heb 10:19), who have had their hearts cleansed from guilt and been baptized (Heb 10:22), who have been sanctified by the covenant (Heb 10:29), who received the light (Heb 10:32), and who have the assurance of lasting possessions due to the promises of God (Heb 10:34-36)

Passage:
In Heb 10:26, he specifically warns these Christians of the dangers of returning to a willful state of sin after having received personal/exact knowledge of the truth. The word used in Heb 10:26 for knowledge is 'epignosis' - relational or true knowledge, first-hand experience of Christ. (John 16:13, II Pet 1:3, II Pet 1:8, Col 3:10, Col 1:10, Col 2:2, etc.) Scripture treats the true knowledge (epignosis) that only Christians have of Christ as very distinct from mere 'head knowledge' (gnosis) about the way of salvation.

But what, exactly, does the author mean by willful sin? Is he referring to a Christian deliberately ignoring God to engage in a sin, or to something we could accidentally do? No on both counts.

'Hamartano' (go on sinning) here is a present active participle in the Greek, denoting an ongoing action or continuous state. Hekousios is an adverb, meaning willingly, voluntarily, or of one's own accord.

This warning, then, does not apply to the general struggle Christians have with sin involuntarily, such as Paul describes in Rom 7:23-25, or to one-off sins that we commit knowingly (James 4:17).

Rather, this would apply to those people who once received Christ and had a personal relationship with Him (true knowledge), but then either immediately or at a later date returned to a state of slavery to sin, rather than walking by the Spirit. Going back to the beginning of Heb 10; Paul is specifically warning these Christians not to give in to persecution and try to return to being under the law, rather than trusting the promises of God in faith.

The law of grace is opposed to the regulations of the old covenant (Gal 2:15-21, Gal 3:1-14, James 2:8-12). If we return again to dead works rather than diligently abiding with Christ with faith, long-suffering until the end (Heb 6:1-12), then we are rejecting the sovereign Lord who bought us (II Peter 2:1-3, II Tim 2:18-13).

Loren T. said:

So which is it? You say it's either pass or fail and in the same post say we can potentially lose our salvation. I'm left with having no idea what you really believe, as your posts about it are very confusing and contradictory.
And no one is debating whether the Father loves his own or whether he can be trusted or whether he is able to carry us safely home. The question is whether we can reject him, not whether he will reject us.

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It's not one or the other. It's both.

If you were born in a country, are you not a citizen for life? Yes. Only in a very rare circumstance could that ever be taken away.

Ephesians 2:19-20
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Eloy Craft said:

And when they had taken their places and were eating, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.”
Luke 22:21
But see, the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table.

None of them knew who among them believed and who did not. Only Jesus and Judas knew.

Matthew 26
“Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.” 22 And they became greatly distressed and began to say to him one after another, “Surely not I, Lord?”

John 13
he asked him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” So when he had dipped the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “Do quickly what you are going to do.” 28 Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the common purse, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the festival”; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the piece of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.

They had no idea who was saved or not saved. God doesn't make our eternal condition visible. His final judgment is not seen on earth.

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No matter how many times you post a Misinterpretation of Scripture, it is still a Misinterpretation of Scripture.

None of the Disciples at the time of the Passover meal were Saved, Jesus had not yet at that point been Crucified, therefore no Sacrifice for sin had been provided.

Therefore Judas did not lose his Salvation, because he had not received it yet.

Besides, your forgetting Jesus said He knew who Judas was.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Next you'll be saying Peter lost his Salvation because he denied Christ three times.

Anto9us said:

Humans may never know who was "serious" or "true" in their profession of faith, but God certainly knows.

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I will agree with you on this point.

But the question arises and must be asked.

Why does it bother you so much that a Brother in Christ would believe in the Doctrine of OSAS, does it change anything concerning either your or his Salvation?

Isn't it just a matter of, you both get to the same destination by differing modes of operation?

There are no differing modes of operation -- only grace through FAITH -- continuous beleiving until death.

Why it "bothers me" is simply that it is a wrong doctrine, it's unscriptural and wrong.

I guess I could say that the doctrine might tend to make someone be careless and unconcerned about sin and they lead a flagrant sinful life because they have false asurrance they are going to heaven regardless, but I won't go there -- I don't think posters here are in that category.

It's just WRONG, man. The Bible has many warnings against falling away.

Anto9us said:

There are no differing modes of operation -- only grace through FAITH -- continuous beleiving until death.

Why it "bothers me" is simply that it is a wrong doctrine, it's unscriptural and wrong.

I guess I could say that the doctrine might tend to make someone be careless and unconcerned about sin and they lead a flagrant sinful life because they have false asurrance they are going to heaven regardless, but I won't go there -- I don't think posters here are in that category.

It's just WRONG, man. The Bible has many warnings against falling away.

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That is exactly my sentiments too.

JIMINZ said:

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No matter how many times you post a Misinterpretation of Scripture, it is still a Misinterpretation of Scripture.

None of the Disciples at the time of the Passover meal were Saved, Jesus had not yet at that point been Crucified, therefore no Sacrifice for sin had been provided.

Therefore Judas did not lose his Salvation, because he had not received it yet.

Besides, your forgetting Jesus said He knew who Judas was.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Next you'll be saying Peter lost his Salvation because he denied Christ three times.

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sorry, the point I made with my post includes before and after Crucifixion. Neither account I referenced would unfold the way they did if Jesus or the Apostles were tesching "You arr already saved, because you believe you are going to heaven". That's the point of my post. Next I will say Peter needed Jesus prayer to survive the sifting and the rest of the Apostles needed him to survive to be saved.

SeventyOne said:

That silence is problematic for your position.

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What in logic or scripture would make it 'problematic' for my position that scripture doesn't use a word you insist it must use (if my view is correct) to describe a process you insist must happen (if my view is correct) but that my view doesn't claim?

There are so many logical fallacies in that: Strawman, false dichotomy, argument from silence, etc.

Interestingly enough, though, the term 'uncreate' simply means to destroy or to annihilate or to dismantle. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uncreate And as I already went through, there are plenty of scriptures which show those reject a faith they once held and return to the world as facing destruction.

So, hmm, I guess scripture showing that those who cease to remain in Christ (but once were) will be cut out of the vine and burned and destroyed does sound an awful lot like dismantle and destroying (Jn 15:5-6, Rom 11:21-22, Heb 6:26-27, etc.) So scripture does talk about being uncreated - just not as you imagine or define it.

"Distinguish not: for soon expect to feel
His Thunder on thy head, devouring fire.
Then who created thee lamenting learn,
When who can uncreate thee thou shalt know." - John Milton

It does literally say we are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and the righteousness of God (v21). God even foretells of the new covenant when has a people with His laws written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16). This is a change in our nature when we are born again, literally becoming something different.

So, yes, to prove a loss of salvation, you would have to prove an additional re-creation to a former state. The 'silence' won't cut it.

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First, God didn't 'create' our former state of slavery to sin. We did. Since the fall of Adam, we know good from evil and cannot be perfectly righteous of our own deeds. God cannot 're-create' what He never created to begin with. God created us, but man fell. That wasn't due to God making us sin or making us fall. We choose evil of our own accord. God's creation was 'good.'

We do become a new creation in Christ. But here again, there is no 'creation' or 'recreation' God needs to do if we return to our former state. It's our doing if we return to the world, not God's.

But let's examine what our new life is, and what it is based in:

II Cor 5:17: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

If we are in Christ, we are a new creation. How does this new creation happen?

"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:27
[Does this prevent us from disrobing? Would God have to re-create us naked if we took our clothes off?]

"We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life."
[But what if we stop walking or take a different path? Would the Father have to recreate us into standing-still-people or recreate us as on-a-different path people?]

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Rom 7:6
[If we stop serving in newness of the spirit and deliberately return to the written code, would God have to 'recreate us' as bound to the law? Wouldn't be our own doing to deliberately returned to bondage to the law?]

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to cast away your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and be clothed with the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:22-23

Another figurative comparison to clothing, interesting. God creates the new self, but it is like a garment we wear.

"I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For He has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels." Isa 61:10

If you take off a garment, does God 're-create' you naked? No, you personally took off your clothes. When a bride takes off her jewelry or a groom his cap, are they re-created plain? No, they just took off their adornment.

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
[What if we stop being in Him? Are we still the righteousness of God? For that matter, is this saying we become perfectly righteous, or is it saying that God credits Christ's righteousness to our account and views us through His righteousness?]

"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe [active/ongoing.] There is no difference between Jew and Gentile," Rom 3:22
[This would seem to hint that righteousness is a gift rooted in our ongoing faith...]

"...but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe (active/ongoing) in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.…" Rom 4:24-25
[This is pretty clear that Christ's righteousness is a *credit* to our account, not something we now possess perfectly in and of ourselves.]

Etc. Nothing in our new life demands that if we later reject faith, stop walking by the spirit, take off the garments of salvation, etc. would mean that God would have to 'recreate' us to a former state.

Israel as a nation of of mostly fallen men is the same as those individually re-created and purchased by His blood and sealed by His Spirit? You are really reaching on this one, by comparing apples to oranges. You assume the rejection of God by fallen men is the same as if a re-created man would ever be able to reject God.

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My point was that your theory about the term 'recreation' is not just nonsensical but wrong. Israel was physically saved by God yet rejected Him frequently - God didn't 're-create Israel to a former state.' So why would spiritual salvation suddenly act differently? Physical types in scripture are there to shed light on their Spiritual antitypes - not directly contradict them. You are using a term scripture never speaks of, with connotations that aren't even in the *English* term, to create philosophies about what must or must not be said in scripture to 'prove' views you both disagree with and misunderstand. That's an illogical and dizzying series of fallacies and exchanging scripture for a philosophical 'burden of proof' you demand be reached.

You can't show first that such a person ever would do so, and you can't prove what would happen even if he were capable of trying.

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I already quoted many scriptures that show people who once had a personal relationship with Christ and who once had the indwelling Holy Spirit later rejecting faith and willfully returning to the bondage of sin. And many of those scriptures show clearly "what happens" - they are cut out from the body of Christ and destroyed.

I'm not talking about the payment of our debt, which also doesn't help your point at all since we are told the debt was completely paid from the point of the cross, not from the point of our repentance.

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Col 2:14 doesn't say that we were personally forgiven completely at the point of the cross. It says that "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

Jesus cancelled the writings of debt that stood against us (i.e. the law) at the cross. This is clarified even further in Eph 2:15: "by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,"

But when are we personally forgiven by God? When we are made alive in Christ (which follows our faith and being baptized into Christ and God raises us with Christ)

"Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled the writings of debt that stood against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" Col 2:13-14

That is, Jesus accomplished the cancellation of the writings of debt at the cross. But that is only applied by God when we believe.
"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
Eph 4:32

It's similar to how Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for all at the cross - but only those who believe are covered by the blood. Or how Jesus accomplished reconciliation at the cross, but only those who unite with his death and are made alive by God are reconciled, etc.

You are adding sin after our repentance and claiming that sin renews our debt and denying Colossians 2:13-14 in the process.

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No - Christians still struggle with sin. It doesn't renew our debt though, because *we are not under the law.* If we reject faith and try to turn again to the law? Well, *then* we have a problem! Christ is of 'no value' to us then - we cannot claim His work on the cross to cover us. We are again accumulating the wages of sin and lawbreakers in the sight of God. Indeed, we actually unite with those who crucified Christ - not just rejecting His work on the cross but declaring agreement with it (Heb 6:4-6)

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you." Gal 5:1-8

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." I Cor 15:2

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe (active/ongoing.)" Rom 3:19

"Through him everyone who believes (active/ongoing) is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." Acts 13:39

[By the way when I post (active/ongoing) in conjunction with a term it is because it is a present active participle in the Greek which means it is an ongoing state. Many verses tie things like eternal life, freedom from sin, etc. as conditional to active/ongoing belief.]

That said, if you have verses that describe how to become unsealed by the Spirit prior to the day of redemption, which hasn't happened yet, and if you can show the verses describing the re-creation back to a fallen state where He removes His law from our hearts, and if you can show where it's described how we are able to purchase ourselves from God and what is the acceptable price of the purchase, then you'll have something.

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Lol. That's like saying, "if you find verses that describe narfling by the spirit prior to Jesus coming again and can show verses discussing randomatra subsequent to paboclase and can show where it's described how we are able to fidlibegibit and the quantifiable amount we will have to fidlibegit then you'll have something."

Nonsense concepts that you demand be shown don't mean that they actually *are* required. The only thing that "means something" in defense of a scriptural view is whether it is backed by contextual scripture and doesn't contradict other scripture. For a view to be likely, not just supported, it should also have texts that heavily imply or explicitly state it's claims and ones that make alternatives unlikely or impossible.

As we are given these characteristics of the truly saved. To cease to be saved would require these characteristics to be altered back to a prior state.

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It isn't 'altering' a garment if you take the garment off, it's you becoming naked. (You could even say return to the state of being naked since we are born that way.) If a homeless person finds a home, stays a while, but then deliberately leaves - he isn't 'altered back to homelessness' by an outside factor. He becomes homeless again (or you could even say returns to homelessness) of his own accord. Etc.

So if you reject faith and the Spirit departs - well you become without the Spirit (or return to the previous state of not having the Spirit, if you'd rather.) When you stop remaining in Christ and leave, well, you are no longer "in Christ" and so can be said to return of yourself to not having Christ. It's not quite the same state as pre-belief, though, since you did have the Spirit and walked with Christ for a time. Your final state is actually *worse* than what you had prior to faith. The people who had once escaped the corruptions of the world through true knowledge/personal relationship with Christ but then returned to the world (II Pet 2:20-22) were considered to be in a *worse* state then before they had first escaped the world through Christ to begin with!

Disciples returned from a mission, exulting that even demons were subject to them - Jesus said "rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven". That was Pre-Cross. So it's a slippery slope to claim "no one was saved" prior to Resurrection; that's disputable - repentant thief was told THIS DAY you will be in paradise...

Eloy Craft said:

sorry, the point I made with my post includes before and after Crucifixion. Neither account I referenced would unfold the way they did if Jesus or the Apostles were tesching "You arr already saved, because you believe you are going to heaven". That's the point of my post. Next I will say Peter needed Jesus prayer to survive the sifting and the rest of the Apostles needed him to survive to be saved.

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Sorry but the Scripture you referenced only speaks about before the Crucifixion,
and as I pointed out they weren't Saved before the Crucifixion, because there hadn't yet been a Crucifixion.

No Sacrifice for sin had been made, in other words, Judas could not lose something he never had.

Saint Steven said:

It's not one or the other. It's both.

If you were born in a country, are you not a citizen for life? Yes. Only in a very rare circumstance could that ever be taken away.

Ephesians 2:19-20
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

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You are a citizen so long as a) you don't renounce your citizenship and b) you don't commit a crime that costs citizenship in your country (Rome, for example, did take away citizenships for certain crimes - those people usually were made slaves or killed horrifically.)

Of more relevance to the debate on salvation than crime is the ability to renounce citizenship. God doesn't take a believer's citizenship away even if they commit some major crime, but if a person rejects faith it is effectively renouncing citizenship in the kingdom of God. It is not surprising then that God cuts out the person who does not remain in Christ (Jn 15:4-6) and who rejects faith (Rom 11:20-22.)

Yes, as written, and as you have shown very clearly from Scripture, this is the simplest way to expose the false teachings and false doctrines of man and of tradition > - they always contradict Scripture.
Everything that is from Yahweh is truth, >>>

Jennifer Rothnie said:

and doesn't contradict other scripture.

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Anto9us said:

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I guess I could say that the doctrine might tend to make someone be careless and unconcerned about sin and they lead a flagrant sinful life because they have false asurrance they are going to heaven regardless, but I won't go there -- I don't think posters here are in that category.

It's just WRONG, man. The Bible has many warnings against falling away.

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The way I see it that's just slothfulness that will be their undoing for eternity. I don't think anyone will find themselves anywhere but where they intentionally put themselves.

~Cassia~ said:

I think God’s justice in eternity is a very real thing too. And I also couldn't go to hell even if I tried either. I have far too many people telling me where to go. God the Father has one offer to those who believe and that is eternal life. God the Son otoh is Him to Whom the rewards are His to give. Christ is that aspect of Hebrews that speaks of the belief in God as One Who rewards and to which belief is essential. The rewards are given on the day of the Lord and only those believers who have overcome the world, satan and self will be recipients qualified to participate in His pre-eternal reign. And of those qualified not all will be safe from having to face the opportunity to side against God again. Of those many that are called, few are indeed the chosen. They will be the ones wearing their crowns for eternity. At this point I imagine it like looking at the coat of many colours the Mighty Father has made for His favoured children, all the colours of the many rewards available.Those not favoured in this way will be raised for eternity as their reward for belief but will wear God’s displeasure for eternity. Rewards have been given as the incentive, the prize for endurance. Yet only those things that have been wrought thru Him will in fact endure to the end.

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JIMINZ said:

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Sorry but the Scripture you referenced only speaks about before the Crucifixion,
and as I pointed out they weren't Saved before the Crucifixion, because there hadn't yet been a Crucifixion.

No Sacrifice for sin had been made, in other words, Judas could not lose something he never had.

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you didnt get this part?
Acts 5
3 “Ananias,” Peter asked, “why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!” 5 Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

If they were being taught that they had eternal security the believers would not be seized with great fear. In fact Peter would have just sent them to heaven.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

You are a citizen so long as a) you don't renounce your citizenship and b) you don't commit a crime that costs citizenship in your country (Rome, for example, did take away citizenships for certain crimes - those people usually were made slaves or killed horrifically.)

Of more relevance to the debate on salvation than crime is the ability to renounce citizenship. God doesn't take a believer's citizenship away even if they commit some major crime, but if a person rejects faith it is effectively renouncing citizenship in the kingdom of God. It is not surprising then that God cuts out the person who does not remain in Christ (Jn 15:4-6) and who rejects faith (Rom 11:20-22.)

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I hereby renounce citizenship in the country of my national origin.
Did I just lose my citizenship? Or do I not really have the power to revoke my own citizenship? I would say the latter.

I think the same is true in the spiritual realm. A person can scream at God and throw things at the sky and make all sorts of renouncements, but ultimately it is up to God as to whether they have forfeited their faith or not.

Eloy Craft said:

To me it's something being sold by those who need someone else to believe it because down deep they really aren't sure.

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Sorry, but this isn't something which is being sold, it's a belief which is continually attacked by those who do not believe it which keeps it in the public eye so to speak.

If the dissenters of the belief would stop bringing the issue up, it really wouldn't be an issue.

Eloy Craft said:

you didnt get this part?
Acts 5
3 “Ananias,” Peter asked, “why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!” 5 Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

If they were being taught that they had eternal security the believers would not be seized with great fear. In fact Peter would have just sent them to heaven.

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You didn't get this part, they lied to the Holy Spirit, and death was the consequence, it wasn't as though they were sinners losing their Salvation.

Saint Steven said:

but ultimately it is up to God as to whether they have forfeited their faith or not.

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Ye, so it is .....

Anto9us said:

There are no differing modes of operation -- only grace through FAITH -- continuous beleiving until death.

Why it "bothers me" is simply that it is a wrong doctrine, it's unscriptural and wrong.

I guess I could say that the doctrine might tend to make someone be careless and unconcerned about sin and they lead a flagrant sinful life because they have false asurrance they are going to heaven regardless, but I won't go there -- I don't think posters here are in that category.

It's just WRONG, man. The Bible has many warnings against falling away.

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.
Well to say it bluntly.

Your belief is just WRONG, man.

It bothers me, that you and others say it is simply wrong doctrine, it's
un-scriptural and wrong.

There have been supplied numerous Scripture, which back up and support the issue, but you and others refuse to accept them, because of your having been indoctrinated in the beliefs you do hold.

It isn't un-scriptural, you just don't accept the Scripture which has been provided to you.