Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]
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Oldmantook
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My apology if you think I was condescending. However, frankly you have avoided explaining what Rom 8:13 means despite my asking you to do so. If you are inclined to explain it, then please do so as that verse clearly contradicts your view. If not, then don't bother replying.
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A white flag of truce with a little jab in it?
And you.
I am speaking honestly. But I was in the process of updating my post to you several times before you replied. I do not want to be overly offensive, but it is difficult when I feel that you are wrong in your interpretations on God's Word.
In any event, peace be unto you in the Lord.
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Oldmantook
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The Father indeed prunes and disciplines those whom he loves so that they REMAIN IN ME. Despite this, those believers who choose NOT TO REMAIN in the vine are USELESS and WITHER and thrown into the fire. Only believers have the choice whether to remain in Him. Unbelievers on the other hand, are not part of the vine in the first place as they are not attached to Jesus.
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@JakeyB123
To understand what Aiki believes 1 John 1:8 really says, you can check out my reply to him another thread on that verse here.
May God bless you.
To understand what Aiki believes 1 John 1:8 really says, you can check out my reply to him another thread on that verse here.
May God bless you.
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James 5:19-20 is talking about a faithful believer restoring another believer back to the faith who has erred from the faith due to sin. For they have helped to save a soul from death and helped to cover a multitude of their sins (No doubt by getting them to seek forgiveness of their sins of when they went prodigal).
Hebrews 10:26 is talking sinning to a point where it leads to apostasy. Hebrews 3 warns that sin can harden the heart can make us to depart from the living God. Granted, the OSAS proponent does not believe you can depart from the living God (even though that is what the Bible plainly says).
Hebrews 10:26 is talking sinning to a point where it leads to apostasy. Hebrews 3 warns that sin can harden the heart can make us to depart from the living God. Granted, the OSAS proponent does not believe you can depart from the living God (even though that is what the Bible plainly says).
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JIMINZ
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.
In this verse we see the use of two different words, one is (FLESH) the other is (BODY), these two words have different definitions, and pertain to two different things in relation to the Believer.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the Flesh G4561, ye shall die:
That is a very straight forward statement, I believe what it says.
I believe that a Christian does not live after the flesh......... Period.
FLESH:
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the FLESH G4561, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful FLESH G4561, and for sin, condemned sin in the FLESH G4561:
Gal. 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the FLESH G4561 with the affections and lusts.
Rom. 8:13
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the Body G4983, ye shall live.
This part is very straight forward as well, therefore as with the first part, I believe what it says.
BODY:
G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.
G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
Rom. 6:5,6
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the BODY G4983 of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The Old Man is the FLESH.....Refers back to verse 3
Rom. 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the BODY G4983 is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
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Number one, I have a friendly suggestion, so please do not take it the wrong way. Okay. Please try and put away the dictionary when you read or quote the Bible, my friend. A dictionary (while it can be accurate sometimes) is an interpretation based upon what somebody else thinks. While these tools can be helpful sometimes (when we are stuck), we should not rely upon them so as to interpret and understand what the Bible says (or so as to show others). We should always strive to ask God for the meaning of what Scripture means before we start reading. Also, you can define words in the Bible by simply looking at the context (or surrounding words) and by comparing that same phrase with other similar phrases in the Bible all on your own. In Romans 8:13, it is obvious that it is talking about sin because it is contrasted by the saying, "but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." This is saying that if you put to death the deeds of the body (sin), you shall live (live spiritually). Why would Paul say this if Christians would automatically just do this?
Two, if Christians cannot live after the flesh, then why is Paul telling Christians, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die"?
That would be like saying to your son, "if you don't do your homework, you will do poorly in school, but if you do your homework, your grades will improve," with your son thinking that you were not talking to him when you were speaking negatively to him in regards to his homework.
I mean, think about it. Every time you speak negatively to your son, he would just think you were talking to somebody else. Imagine how frustrating that would be if he did that. This is what you are doing with Romans 8:13. If Paul was talking to non-Christians in the first half of the verse he would never say, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die."
If what you say is true, then Paul would say something like, "And we know that others who are not born again, they live after the flesh and they will die, but this is not so for you my brethren, for you will always mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit because you are born again." But does Paul say that? No. He does not.
You said:
In Romans 8, Paul gives the reader (Which was written to believers) choices that could either be bad for them spiritually or good for them spiritually.
1. To be carnally minded is death; vs. To be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:6).
There are two choices given to the reader here.
2. If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: vs. If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Romans 8:13). There are two choices given to the reader here.
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Romans 8:13 refutes OSAS.
For it gives us TWO choices for us the reader (Which is written to the believer).
Choice #1. - If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
Choice #2. - If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
OSAS proponents say you cannot fall away from the faith. But Paul is saying here in Romans 8:13 that if you live after the flesh, you will die. The word "die" is contrasted with the word "live." Surely the word "live" here is talking about spiritual life and not just physical life here on this Earth. For we believers are not just concerned with just living physically because we can be persecuted and we can die physically for our faith. So living here is not our goal. This world is not our home.
For it gives us TWO choices for us the reader (Which is written to the believer).
Choice #1. - If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
Choice #2. - If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
OSAS proponents say you cannot fall away from the faith. But Paul is saying here in Romans 8:13 that if you live after the flesh, you will die. The word "die" is contrasted with the word "live." Surely the word "live" here is talking about spiritual life and not just physical life here on this Earth. For we believers are not just concerned with just living physically because we can be persecuted and we can die physically for our faith. So living here is not our goal. This world is not our home.
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Confusion Arises About the Law Today Because Many Christians Today are Unaware of the Heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (During that Time Period):
Some Christians here do not understand that Paul was trying to refute "Circumcision Salvationism." For there were certain Jews were trying to seduce believers into thinking they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved. This is evident that this was taking place because of certain clues we find in Scripture.
1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2).
"...there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).
"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).
"For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh." (Galatians 6:13).
3 "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (Galatians 2:3-4).
2 "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:2-6).
The Law has changed:
Scripture says the Law has changed.
It's why we are to SERVE in newness of spirit and not in the OLDNESS of the LETTER (i.e. the Old Testament Law of Moses).
Granted, there are moral laws that have been carried over into the New Covenant and it's commands. It's why Paul says that the law is good if one uses it lawfully (or correctly).
So Paul was not against the keeping of the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, and do not covet, etc.) as a part of God's grace. Paul never once said we can break God's Moral Law and still be under God's grace. On the contrary, Paul essentially says that if we break the Moral Law, we have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. This makes sense because Jesus said the pure in heart will see God (Matthew 5:8). A person who is trying to justify in remaining in their sins is not pure of heart and humble.
Some Christians here do not understand that Paul was trying to refute "Circumcision Salvationism." For there were certain Jews were trying to seduce believers into thinking they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved. This is evident that this was taking place because of certain clues we find in Scripture.
1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2).
"...there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).
"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).
"For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh." (Galatians 6:13).
3 "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (Galatians 2:3-4).
2 "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:2-6).
The Law has changed:
Scripture says the Law has changed.
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).
It's why we are to SERVE in newness of spirit and not in the OLDNESS of the LETTER (i.e. the Old Testament Law of Moses).
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).
Granted, there are moral laws that have been carried over into the New Covenant and it's commands. It's why Paul says that the law is good if one uses it lawfully (or correctly).
"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;" (1 Timothy 1:8).
So Paul was not against the keeping of the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, and do not covet, etc.) as a part of God's grace. Paul never once said we can break God's Moral Law and still be under God's grace. On the contrary, Paul essentially says that if we break the Moral Law, we have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. This makes sense because Jesus said the pure in heart will see God (Matthew 5:8). A person who is trying to justify in remaining in their sins is not pure of heart and humble.
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We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling in Philippians 2:12.
Some will say that "fear" does not mean "fear" and "tremble" does not mean "tremble" in relation to fear. But that would be like saying I was cold and I was shivering because the temperature outside was freezing, and yet on the other hand, I said to you that the word "cold" did not mean "cold" and the word "shivering" did not mean "shivering." Now, you would be confused and or you think I have flipped my lid if I said that. This is what OSAS Proponents want me to believe. Non-sense. They want me to go against two words that are tied together that paint a clear picture of what is going on here.
In other words, "fear" and "tremble" are words that go together because they paint a picture of the emotion of fear. A bad fear? No. A good and healthy fear of the Lord that leads a person to seek forgiveness with Christ and for them to forsake their sinful and evil ways.
Some will say that "fear" does not mean "fear" and "tremble" does not mean "tremble" in relation to fear. But that would be like saying I was cold and I was shivering because the temperature outside was freezing, and yet on the other hand, I said to you that the word "cold" did not mean "cold" and the word "shivering" did not mean "shivering." Now, you would be confused and or you think I have flipped my lid if I said that. This is what OSAS Proponents want me to believe. Non-sense. They want me to go against two words that are tied together that paint a clear picture of what is going on here.
In other words, "fear" and "tremble" are words that go together because they paint a picture of the emotion of fear. A bad fear? No. A good and healthy fear of the Lord that leads a person to seek forgiveness with Christ and for them to forsake their sinful and evil ways.
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aiki
Regular Member
John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 2 describes a “branch” that bears fruit being pruned that it might bring forth more fruit. Verse 2 also mentions a “branch” that doesn't bear fruit being “taken away.” Most people assume that the phrase “takes away” must mean “rejected by God.” And since the branch that is “taken away” is a branch “in me,” that is, in Christ, the branch must be a born-again believer. But this means, then, that a Christian can be “taken away,” or rejected of God, if they fail to “bear fruit.” This looks on the face of it, very much like a saved-and-lost doctrine. But, hang on. The Greek word αἴρω (airo) carries several meanings:
Greek Word: αἴρω
Transliteration: airō
Phonetic Pronunciation:ah'ee-ro
Root: a primary root
Part of Speech: v
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
take up 32
take away 25
take 25
away with 5
lift up 4
bear 3
miscellaneous translations 8
[Total Count: 102]
a primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figurative to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specially to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebrew [compare <H5375> (nasa')] to expiate sin :- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
“Takes away” is not the only way this phrase in verse 2 may be rendered. What is known of ancient viticulture practices indicates that, rather than “takes away” in verse 2, the phrase would better reflect the practices of the time in which Jesus was speaking if it read “lifts up” or “takes up” or “bears up.” (See “Viticulture and John 15:1-6” by Gary W. Derickson) This makes far better sense in light of so many passages in Scripture that speak of God faithfully finishing the saving work He began in us. (Philippians 1:6; 1 Corinthians 1:8-9; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) God does not cast aside His children, His “branches in Christ,” when they cease or struggle to “bear fuit” but instead “lifts up” these fruitless “branches” that they might in time begin to be fruitful branches. Gary Dickerson explains:
"The approach of most exegetes is to see in Jesus’ words a process by which farmers pick off the adventitious sprigs from the fruiting branches (cleanses them) and cut off nonfruiting branches (takes them away). This interpretation of ai[rei, however, contradicts the evidence from Pliny that nonfruiting branches were preserved and nurtured for use the following season. It would be better to see Jesus indicating what actually occurred during the spring, namely, certain nonfruiting branches were tied to the trellises along with the fruiting branches while the side shoots of the fruiting branches were being “cleaned up.”
“Takes away” in John 15:2 ought, then, to be replaced with “takes up” or “lifts up” which eliminates the verse as a saved-and-lost proof text.
John 15:6 is also assumed by many to refer to a believer who is cast out of God's family into hell. But the verse doesn't actually support such a reading. The man described in the verse is not abiding in Christ. How, then, is he a born-again believer? It is impossible to be saved and not be abiding in Christ (Romans 8:1 -2; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 1:21, etc). The former requires the latter. Thus, John 15:6 does not describe a saved person losing their salvation, but the eternal fate of the lost.
In light of these things, John 15:1-6 dissolves as ground for a saved-and-lost doctrine.
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 2 describes a “branch” that bears fruit being pruned that it might bring forth more fruit. Verse 2 also mentions a “branch” that doesn't bear fruit being “taken away.” Most people assume that the phrase “takes away” must mean “rejected by God.” And since the branch that is “taken away” is a branch “in me,” that is, in Christ, the branch must be a born-again believer. But this means, then, that a Christian can be “taken away,” or rejected of God, if they fail to “bear fruit.” This looks on the face of it, very much like a saved-and-lost doctrine. But, hang on. The Greek word αἴρω (airo) carries several meanings:
Greek Word: αἴρω
Transliteration: airō
Phonetic Pronunciation:ah'ee-ro
Root: a primary root
Part of Speech: v
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
take up 32
take away 25
take 25
away with 5
lift up 4
bear 3
miscellaneous translations 8
[Total Count: 102]
a primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figurative to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specially to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebrew [compare <H5375> (nasa')] to expiate sin :- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
“Takes away” is not the only way this phrase in verse 2 may be rendered. What is known of ancient viticulture practices indicates that, rather than “takes away” in verse 2, the phrase would better reflect the practices of the time in which Jesus was speaking if it read “lifts up” or “takes up” or “bears up.” (See “Viticulture and John 15:1-6” by Gary W. Derickson) This makes far better sense in light of so many passages in Scripture that speak of God faithfully finishing the saving work He began in us. (Philippians 1:6; 1 Corinthians 1:8-9; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) God does not cast aside His children, His “branches in Christ,” when they cease or struggle to “bear fuit” but instead “lifts up” these fruitless “branches” that they might in time begin to be fruitful branches. Gary Dickerson explains:
"The approach of most exegetes is to see in Jesus’ words a process by which farmers pick off the adventitious sprigs from the fruiting branches (cleanses them) and cut off nonfruiting branches (takes them away). This interpretation of ai[rei, however, contradicts the evidence from Pliny that nonfruiting branches were preserved and nurtured for use the following season. It would be better to see Jesus indicating what actually occurred during the spring, namely, certain nonfruiting branches were tied to the trellises along with the fruiting branches while the side shoots of the fruiting branches were being “cleaned up.”
“Takes away” in John 15:2 ought, then, to be replaced with “takes up” or “lifts up” which eliminates the verse as a saved-and-lost proof text.
John 15:6 is also assumed by many to refer to a believer who is cast out of God's family into hell. But the verse doesn't actually support such a reading. The man described in the verse is not abiding in Christ. How, then, is he a born-again believer? It is impossible to be saved and not be abiding in Christ (Romans 8:1 -2; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 1:21, etc). The former requires the latter. Thus, John 15:6 does not describe a saved person losing their salvation, but the eternal fate of the lost.
In light of these things, John 15:1-6 dissolves as ground for a saved-and-lost doctrine.
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aiki
Regular Member
Romans 8:13-14
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:13 is directly connected to Romans 8:14. You can't properly understand verse 13 without reading it in the light of verse 14. Why does a man "put to death the deeds of the body"? (vs. 13) Because he is, as a born-again "son of God," "led by the Spirit" to do so. (vs. 14) If, then, a man is living according to his flesh and not being led by the Spirit, is he a "son of God"? Obviously not. Paul is making a contrast here between those who are not saved and live according to the flesh and those who are saved and live in accord with the will and way of the Holy Spirit. He doesn't say, "You who once lived according to the Spirit but are now living according to the flesh will die." This is the way one must read the verse, though, in order to make it support the false saved-and-lost/works-salvation doctrines. Romans 8:13 doesn't describe a saved-and-lost person but two separate and different kinds of people.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:13 is directly connected to Romans 8:14. You can't properly understand verse 13 without reading it in the light of verse 14. Why does a man "put to death the deeds of the body"? (vs. 13) Because he is, as a born-again "son of God," "led by the Spirit" to do so. (vs. 14) If, then, a man is living according to his flesh and not being led by the Spirit, is he a "son of God"? Obviously not. Paul is making a contrast here between those who are not saved and live according to the flesh and those who are saved and live in accord with the will and way of the Holy Spirit. He doesn't say, "You who once lived according to the Spirit but are now living according to the flesh will die." This is the way one must read the verse, though, in order to make it support the false saved-and-lost/works-salvation doctrines. Romans 8:13 doesn't describe a saved-and-lost person but two separate and different kinds of people.
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aiki
Regular Member
Why should the "fear and trembling" of Philippians 2:12 be that of someone under threat? If Philippians 2:13 is true - and, of course, it is - there is no reason to fear!
Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
God gives us both the desire and the ability to do His will. He saves us and He enables us to live as His children. God does it all! He has redeemed us, and justified us, and sanctified us in Christ; He has adopted us; He has cleansed us of the stain of our sin; He has made us joint-heirs with Christ and seated us in heavenly places in him. We need not be afraid, we need not tremble before God as though He was a threat to us! He is our loving Heavenly Father from whom nothing can separate us! And so, the "fear" of Philippians 2:12 is not a craven, cowering fear, but a respectful, reverential awe of God that causes us to live soberly and carefully as born-again believers. The "trembling", too, is not the trembling of someone who is terribly afraid of danger, but, in light of the fact that God gives each of His children the desire and ability to do His will, the trembling of one who is excited, and awestruck, and overcome with the greatness of the gift God has given in the Person of His Son.
Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
God gives us both the desire and the ability to do His will. He saves us and He enables us to live as His children. God does it all! He has redeemed us, and justified us, and sanctified us in Christ; He has adopted us; He has cleansed us of the stain of our sin; He has made us joint-heirs with Christ and seated us in heavenly places in him. We need not be afraid, we need not tremble before God as though He was a threat to us! He is our loving Heavenly Father from whom nothing can separate us! And so, the "fear" of Philippians 2:12 is not a craven, cowering fear, but a respectful, reverential awe of God that causes us to live soberly and carefully as born-again believers. The "trembling", too, is not the trembling of someone who is terribly afraid of danger, but, in light of the fact that God gives each of His children the desire and ability to do His will, the trembling of one who is excited, and awestruck, and overcome with the greatness of the gift God has given in the Person of His Son.
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Oldmantook
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Thanks for your reply as it helps me to understand how you interpret this passage. V.13 is directed at believers specifically as v.12 states that Paul is warning the "brethren." You wrote: "I believe that a Christian does not live after the flesh......... Period." That is an unbiblical statement. You quote Gal 5:24 but it states that those Christians who have crucified the flesh with its affections and lust belong to Christ. However then, the converse is also true as those Christians who have choose not to crucify their flesh ARE NOT Christ's. Rom 8:3 states that Christ's atonement make it possible for us to crucify our sinful flesh - something that could not be done under the Law. However, this verse does not state that all Christians will choose to crucify their flesh. Rom 6:6 states that are old man is crucified but just a few verses later Paul warns that we can choose to obey our sinful flesh which leads to DEATH or obey God which leads to righteousness.
That is why Paul warns the brethren in Rom 8:13 that IF they live according to the flesh, they will DIE. The word "if" indicates possibility - not certainly. If indicates that it is possible for a believer to choose to live according to the flesh. IF they do so, they will DIE. Die refers to spiritual death. It cannot refer to physical death because everyone dies physically no matter how we live our lives. Thus for you to claim that a Christian does not live according to the flesh is not accurate. It would be more accurate to say that some Christians do not live according to the flesh while others do. Those that do live according to the flesh and don't repent will experience spiritual death.
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Another note on Philippians 2:12:
Perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18).
So this destroys the notion that "fear" means some kind of "reverential awe of God."
Do we stop having a "reverential awe of God" because we have perfect love? No.
How do we perfect our love with God?
It is by keeping His Word.
"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).
In addition,
Psalms 7:11 says, God is angry with the wicked every day.
Proverbs 8:13 says, "To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech."
Psalms 97:10 says, "Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked."
Job 1:1 says, "In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil."
Exodus 20:20 says, "Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”"
Proverbs 3:5-7 says, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil."
It is utter ridiculousness to think that "fear" does not mean "fear." Here is another verse that refutes the beliefs of men trying to change God's Word.
Matthew 10:28 says, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18).
So this destroys the notion that "fear" means some kind of "reverential awe of God."
Do we stop having a "reverential awe of God" because we have perfect love? No.
How do we perfect our love with God?
It is by keeping His Word.
"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).
In addition,
Psalms 7:11 says, God is angry with the wicked every day.
Proverbs 8:13 says, "To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech."
Psalms 97:10 says, "Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked."
Job 1:1 says, "In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil."
Exodus 20:20 says, "Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”"
Proverbs 3:5-7 says, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil."
It is utter ridiculousness to think that "fear" does not mean "fear." Here is another verse that refutes the beliefs of men trying to change God's Word.
Matthew 10:28 says, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
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I remember the first time I accepted Jesus as my Savior. When I read the tract called "This Was Your Life," I had seen an angel casting someone into the Lake of Fire within the comic with the words from Revelation 20:15 that said, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Needless to say that this verse and image helped to put the fear of God in me so as to repent of my sins to the Lord Jesus Christ. So those who say that we are not to fear the Lord, they don't know what they are talking about. Don't listen to them. Jesus changed my life the moment I knew I was on my way to hell and I repented of my sins (Back in 1992).
My encouragement is to believe the Bible in what it says at face value and pray for the understanding when you read it.
Side Note:
You can check out the tract (that the Lord used to save me) here.
My encouragement is to believe the Bible in what it says at face value and pray for the understanding when you read it.
Side Note:
You can check out the tract (that the Lord used to save me) here.
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Another Note on Romans 8:13:
Verse 14 does not undo what verse 13 says. Some OSAS proponents believe that verse 14 changes the dynamic of who is being spoken to in the first half of Roman 8:13. But there is no indication of this in the text. Verse 14 is merely a continuation of the second of verse 13. It is stating the truth that those individuals who are presently being led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God (presently speaking). A person can go from being a son of God to a child of the devil. If this was not the case, then there would have been no need to send a Savior when Adam sinned. Adam was a son of God because Adam had no human father. But when Adam sinned, it required for a Savior to be sent so as to save both Adam and all of humanity. See, the 1st lie by the devil back in the Garden of Eden is still being pushed today. For the serpent said to Eve in regards to her breaking God's commandment, "Ye shall not surely die:"
Many churches today are pushing the same lie: "Ye shall not surely die." When it comes to sin or breaking God's commandments.
Basic reading rules of grammar and writing do not allow for the 1st half of Romans 8:13 to be talking about unbelievers. If such were the case, Paul would say,
"Unbelievers are the ones who live after the flesh, and they shall die, but you my brethren, you will mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit always and this of course means you have life (that can never be lost under any circumstances)." (Romans 8:13 OSAS Influenced Version).
Is that what Paul said? No.
He said,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).
Paul is giving us a choice here.
If you....
(a) If you live after the flesh, you shall die.
(b) If you through the Spirit mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin), you shall live.
Verse 14 does not undo what verse 13 says. Some OSAS proponents believe that verse 14 changes the dynamic of who is being spoken to in the first half of Roman 8:13. But there is no indication of this in the text. Verse 14 is merely a continuation of the second of verse 13. It is stating the truth that those individuals who are presently being led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God (presently speaking). A person can go from being a son of God to a child of the devil. If this was not the case, then there would have been no need to send a Savior when Adam sinned. Adam was a son of God because Adam had no human father. But when Adam sinned, it required for a Savior to be sent so as to save both Adam and all of humanity. See, the 1st lie by the devil back in the Garden of Eden is still being pushed today. For the serpent said to Eve in regards to her breaking God's commandment, "Ye shall not surely die:"
Many churches today are pushing the same lie: "Ye shall not surely die." When it comes to sin or breaking God's commandments.
Basic reading rules of grammar and writing do not allow for the 1st half of Romans 8:13 to be talking about unbelievers. If such were the case, Paul would say,
"Unbelievers are the ones who live after the flesh, and they shall die, but you my brethren, you will mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit always and this of course means you have life (that can never be lost under any circumstances)." (Romans 8:13 OSAS Influenced Version).
Is that what Paul said? No.
He said,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).
Paul is giving us a choice here.
If you....
(a) If you live after the flesh, you shall die.
(b) If you through the Spirit mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin), you shall live.
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aiki
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So, apparently, this discussion is not over but is now going to happen without direct reference to other posters. Well, I'm not going to go along. I'm going to post directly to the things other posters post.
??? Again, you seem unable to understand that a word may have several different meanings and usages. This is certainly the case with the word "fear." Sometimes it actually means the fear of one under threat. At other times, it means reverential awe. It won't work, then, to act as though a word can't have variations in its meaning. Anybody with a modicum of sense can see the specious nature of this sort of careless reasoning.
And where does keeping the commands of God begin? With the First and Great Commandment which is to love God with all of our being. (Matthew 22:36-38) As one lives in obedience to this command, fear (that is, the fear of threat) must necessarily dissolve. (1 John 4:18) And as one learns to love God wholeheartedly, their obedience to Him in other things happens naturally and with joy and without dread of salvation lost.
To whom was this verse in Matthew spoken? To born-again people? No. Being born-again wasn't a possibility until after Jesus had atoned for sin at Calvary and the Spirit had come at Pentecost to dwell within Christ's earliest disciples. Jesus spoke these words to the lost and for them these words were perfectly true. For the believer, though, they are not. It is through salvation that a believer has escaped the danger of a God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And so, they can stand before their Maker confidently and with joy, not fear.
1 John 4:16-17
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
??? Again, you seem unable to understand that a word may have several different meanings and usages. This is certainly the case with the word "fear." Sometimes it actually means the fear of one under threat. At other times, it means reverential awe. It won't work, then, to act as though a word can't have variations in its meaning. Anybody with a modicum of sense can see the specious nature of this sort of careless reasoning.
And where does keeping the commands of God begin? With the First and Great Commandment which is to love God with all of our being. (Matthew 22:36-38) As one lives in obedience to this command, fear (that is, the fear of threat) must necessarily dissolve. (1 John 4:18) And as one learns to love God wholeheartedly, their obedience to Him in other things happens naturally and with joy and without dread of salvation lost.
To whom was this verse in Matthew spoken? To born-again people? No. Being born-again wasn't a possibility until after Jesus had atoned for sin at Calvary and the Spirit had come at Pentecost to dwell within Christ's earliest disciples. Jesus spoke these words to the lost and for them these words were perfectly true. For the believer, though, they are not. It is through salvation that a believer has escaped the danger of a God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And so, they can stand before their Maker confidently and with joy, not fear.
1 John 4:16-17
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
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As for John 15:1-6:
Well, some OSAS proponents think that appealing to the Greek is the answer to making sense out of this passage. For the OSAS proponent will naturally claim that Jesus really did not say that we had to abide in Him and be fruitful or we will be burned. However, is this true? Surely not. Again, the Bible means what it says plainly in the English. God did not require us to seek out another language in order to understand Him. God was more than capable of translating the people's language just fine in Acts 2.
Besides, there are plenty of verses that say we have to be fruitful in order to be saved.
”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
(Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
Are we to assume all these other verses do not mean what they plainly say, too?
Surely not.
"Seeing then that we have such hope,
we use great plainness of speech" (2 Corinthians 3:12).
Well, some OSAS proponents think that appealing to the Greek is the answer to making sense out of this passage. For the OSAS proponent will naturally claim that Jesus really did not say that we had to abide in Him and be fruitful or we will be burned. However, is this true? Surely not. Again, the Bible means what it says plainly in the English. God did not require us to seek out another language in order to understand Him. God was more than capable of translating the people's language just fine in Acts 2.
Besides, there are plenty of verses that say we have to be fruitful in order to be saved.
”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
(Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
Are we to assume all these other verses do not mean what they plainly say, too?
Surely not.
"Seeing then that we have such hope,
we use great plainness of speech" (2 Corinthians 3:12).
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