The Trinity?

Doveaman said:

That's only two persons.

Click to expand...

Really? OK, "The spirit moved over the dark waters"; "When I go, I will ask my father to send a helper..." "The Holy Spirit Descended on Him like a dove"; 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues]">[a] as the Spirit enabled them."

Doveaman said:

No, I don't.

But is it okay if my definition of "three persons" is different from yours?

Click to expand...

So long as your definition of “person” does not destroy the Biblical notion of the Trinity...

Where do you suspect that we differ? Or, to put it more bluntly, at what point(s) do you depart from the Nicene Creed?

Dave-W said:

The Nicean creed is not the correct explanation as it seems engineered to dissuade honest Jews from the Gospel; while us Gentiles are commanded in Rom 11 to make Jews jealous with our faith.

Click to expand...

Could you explain a bit further ? Sounds interesting !

In my book "A Revelation of Who Jesus Is" I detail the history of the Son of God from Eternity to Eternity.

• In the pre-creative world, the Son was in the Father just as all sons are "in the loins" of their father prior to conception.
  Hebrews 7:9-10 KJV
  (9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
  (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
  
  In this He was and still is referred to "the Word" or what I call the "logosytem" of God. (John 1:1, John 14:10-11, John 17:5, John 1:18, John 17:8) For a detailed discussion of what a "logosystem" is see the book "The Logosystem".
• John 14:10-11
  10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
  11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
• The Logosystem/Son was born forth from the womb of the Father as the first act of creation. The Son "came out" of the Father.
• Psalms 110:3
• "...I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning." Brenton - Septuagint
• "...from the womb, I have begotten thee as a child from the ages." (Lamsa translation)
• "...from the womb before the day star I begot thee." Darby
• “...out of my womb before the morning star I bore you.” Augustine of Hippo
• "...From the womb, before the morning star, have I begotten thee." Justin Martyr
• “One must believe that the Son is begotten and born not from nothing, nor from some other substance, but from the womb of the Father [de Patris uter], that is, from his substance.”
  (In Latin, “de Patris utero” — literally, from the uterus of the Father.) Church Council of Toledo
  
• "…it is said, ‘He who is in the bosom of the Father hath declared Him’ (John 1:18). But that which is the womb, is the bosom also. What meaneth, 'from the womb'? (Ps 110:3) From what is secret, from what is hidden; from Myself, from My substance; this is the meaning of "from the womb;"St. Augustine: Exposition on the Book of Psalms
• “The term derives from John 1:18, ‘No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has made him known.” The Greek text here has kolpos, ‘bosom’, but the early Syriac translators chose to render the word, not by kenpa, ’lap bosom’, but by ‘ubba’, which has a much wider range of meaning than does kolpos, and includes ‘womb’ as well as ‘lap’. Sebastian Brock University of Oxford
• The earliest Syriac version of John 1:18 reads: ‘the only-begotten Son, which is from the womb of the Father,

• Proverbs 8:23 KJV
  23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was
  The literal Hebrew says this:
  “I was poured out from the everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.”
  Pulpit Commentary about the word “set up”:
  “It signifies properly "to pour forth" (as of molten metal), then "to put down," "to appoint or establish."

• Proverbs 8:25 KJV
  25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
  
  King James Concordance:
  “was I brought forth”
  chuwl (khool)
  to twist or whirl (in a circular or spiral manner), i.e. (specifically) to dance, to writhe in pain (especially of parturition(childbirth)) or fear; figuratively, to wait, to pervert -

• This is from the “The Greek New Testament “ by Kurt Aland:
  John 8:
  42 Jesus said to them, “If God was your father you would love me [unconditionally], for I came out of God and I am here; for I have not spoken of myself but rather of that one, who sent me.
• John 8 (JM-NT)
  42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you folks would have been loving Me, for I came forth and am arrived here from out of the midst of God. For neither have I come from Myself (on My own initiative), but rather that One sent Me away with a mission (commissions and sends Me forth as an Emissary: an Apostle).
• John 17:
  8. For I have given to them the words which you gave me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.
  JFB “they ... have known surely that I came out from thee”
• John 1:14
  14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
• Pulpit Commentary John 8:42
  “But Jesus will not allow them to claim the full privilege of sons of God. Said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would be loving me, not seeking to slay me. Seeing that you do not love me, God is not your Father in the sense in which you are boasting such relation to him. The reason is: For I came forth out (ek) of God.”
• Alford Great Greek Commentary John 8:42
  "... of the proceeding forth of the Eternal Son from the essence of the Father."
• Vincent's Word Studies
  John 8:42
  “…Ἑξελθεῖν ἐκ, here, emphasizes the idea of essential, community of being: “I came forth out of.”
• “A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments” by Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown
  John 8:42-43
  "...for I am immediately of Him and directly from Him.”
• John 16:27-28 LITV
  27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
  28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
• John 16:27-28 (JM-NT)
  28 “I came from out of the midst of the Father and I have come into the universe (the world; the system of culture, religion, economics and politics). I am progressively leaving the universe (abandoning, sending away, throwing off and releasing the system of culture and religion), and am progressively journeying on, directed and facing toward the Father
• “I came forth from the Father. More precisely, I came out from the Father; not from the Father’s side (para), but as it were, out from (ek) the inner being, the very life and love of the Father. The language is exact, and strong enough to be appealed to in proof of the essential unity of the Father and the Son, or at least of the Father and the Word.”
  Alvah Hovey Commentary on the Gospel of John
• The direct statement of Jesus, "I came forth from the Father," reads literally, "I came out of the Father." Putting with this, His testimony in John 10:38 , "The Father is in Me, and I in Him," we have His personal witness that He truly was "begotten of the Father," as John says in 1:14.
  Sabbath School Lesson Study, 4th quarter 1936
• Vincent's Word Studies
  John 16:28
  "From the Father" (παρά)
  The best texts read, ἐκ, out of.

• Word Pictures - A. T. Robertson
  John 16:28
  I came out from the Father (exēlthon ek tou patros). Definite act (aorist), the Incarnation, with repetition of ek (out of)...

• John 17: (KJV)
  8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

• John 1: (Emph Bible Rotherham)
  18 No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted [him].

• “There is but the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him.”
  Athenagoras
  
  
  These are presented to show that Jesus, the Word, named Lord and Christ, was and is in the Father and the Father in Him. He was born from the Father's essence, and when we see Jesus we see the Father. He came out of the Father, proceeded from the Father into the world, and will return to the Father.

Genesis 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.( God The Father )
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ( The Holy Spirit )
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.( Jesus Christ)

The alternative explanations of the Trinity other than the one defined by the Nicene Creed is the Athanasian Creed.

Other than that:
1) Jesus names the Trinity in the Great Commission: Father-Son-Holy Spirit
2) Being the word "Trinity" is a coined word, the 1st century coined word used in Scripture is in Colossians 2:9

Revelation 22. Trinity w/filoque

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

To the OP: What do you object to in the Nicene Creed? It's a very weak definition of the Trinity. It doesn't say three persons with one essence. It says:

1) The eternal Logos is fully God. The controversial term it used, homoousian, could actually be understood either as saying that the Father and the Son are of the same kind or that they are actually the same. This ambiguity was key to getting most people to accept it. But it doesn't say much about the relationship between the eternal Logos and the human. It just says that the Logos was incarnate and became man. I don't think this goes beyond "the Word became flesh."

2) On the Holy Spirit, it says that it comes from the Father, and is worshipped with the Father and Son. Again, it doesn't use language like person, and thus it isn't specified just what is going on.

Technically, I'm not sure it even contradicts modalism. It wasn't created to deal with Trinitarian heresies, but rather to rule our Arianism. I once talked with a Mormon about it. We both concluded that he might well be able to accept the Nicene Creed.

To all:

heres a strong Tri Unity section, or "trinity" section in scripture

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. 14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."(Isaiah 48:12-17 KJV)

Notice the Lord speaks of the Lord God and His Spirit sending him, and we read words like I even I yeah I ...and in vs 17 we see three distinct persons mentioned but one Lord.

Doveaman said:

Are there alternative explanations of the Trinity other than the one defined by the Nicene Creed?

Click to expand...

Only heretical ones which the rules do not allow to be posted here.

Although it took time I think I came up with the closest analogy of the Trinity, if you take sea water from the same sea and fill it into three distinct containers or shapes, a sphere, cylinder, and cube, then put them all in one single container. I think then we’d have the the closest analogy of one God composed of three distinct persons of the same substance and avoid all forms of heresy, such as Modalism, Partialism, and Trithiesm.

Doveaman said:

Are there alternative explanations of the Trinity other than the one defined by the Nicene Creed?

Click to expand...

The most intricate ancient creed of the church on the doctrine of the Trinity is called the Athanasian Creed, and reads as follows:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Although the creed above was probably not actually penned by Athanasius himself, there is an excellent book that is called “On the incarnation”. You can get it at Amazon etc., or you can read it or download the text for free here:

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.html

Also for a lighter moment, it’s well worth watching this video from Lutheran Satire where St. Patrick is grilled on the subject of the Trinity!