God does not love everyone and the Bible says so (Change My Mind)

here is a short article Meticulous Jewish Scribes

Hammster said:

It’s not dueling scriptures. It was in my first post on the subject. Jesus is clear what happens to those who are drawn.

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yep some come and some do not

Hammster said:

From the Lips of Jesus or a Scribal Hand? “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” | Alpha and Omega Ministries

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so what you are trying to argue is that the scribes were not as careful as they were known to be because some guy can make an argument you think is convincing? how strange and stranger yet you want me to believe it to

Hammster said:

Where does it say that? If the Father draws them, they are raised by Christ. There’s no “if they come”.

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you were given a scripture if you can't read it I am not sure what to tell you but denying it was given is disingenuous. There are as many passages that say not all will come as there are that say all are called.

Let's just focus on John 6 for the moment so as not to get this too cumbersome for you to deal with, start with verse 36 in context of course ....36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe....see, some still do not believe, belief here going back to belief unto salvation which I know you don't believe in but what scripture says....moving forward.

vs. 37...Christ will drive no one that comes away...God calls, Christ accepts all who come

notice verse 40 says all who look to the son and believe...as we said, not everyone believes...is given eternal life...It's a two part that goes on but I don't want to give you too much at once...they have to be called AND believe....

Hammster said:

I don’t care if you believe it. I never made any argument that I wanted you to believe.

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you put forth the article like it had some authority which was not revealed all the while claiming that scripture is your authority...if my authority is scripture and your authority is scripture and we both are listening to the teaching of the HS rather than man then as the early church believed, we should be in one accord. Thus if we disagree one or both is not listening to what scripture testifies as per God's interpretation. If I present scripture and you present man's opinion, which should we believe if scripture is authority? If I present translation and you present man's opinion, which should we believe if scripture is our authority? I could go on...

Hammster said:

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:44‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Drawn/raised.

Simple.

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you missed the belief part that I highlighted for you in context.

Hammster, here is another hint for you...if you were not dismissing the context of other passages I would be much more likely to seriously consider the article you presented but the pattern of dismissal is disturbing and inconsistent with the totality of scripture.

Here's another hint for you Hammster...when you started talking about John 12:31 and I started checking your work, I thought I might have to eat crow....what you were saying wasn't lining up but the definition for the word all there could mean kind. I was prepared to admit defeat on that passage and then I read the entry which shows both definitions and how they know which is which and that proved you wrong.

See, I am willing to conform my ideas to scripture even if I got it wrong, but you have to show me in scripture because as I said, scripture is my authority and since my first lang. is not ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek or ancient Aramaic I have to rely on translation from experts in the field, enter Thayer's....if there are still questions, we can talk further, but if they are clear, it's done cause scripture is my authority...I then clarify that understanding through the totality of scripture as I have also challenged you to do, then further I seek challenge which is why I am here and you offered no challenge to my theology so I am not sure what else we can talk about unless you have something new to add.

Just some food for thought Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 4:2, Revelation 22:18-19 - New International Version

Hammster...In a previous post I made, I posted two related points and you asked me which point I wanted you to address because you couldn't address that many points in one post. If you can't handle two points in one post that only leaves one at a time which is very limiting to effective communication. Nonetheless, I am attempting to conform to your limits the best I know how...so now, I have another related question that I sure hope you can help me with since I am looking for truth no matter where it leads.

Since the first point is why I didn't ask yesterday, that will be the end of this post, the question is in the following post.

You have not convinced me that there is any reason to dismiss Jesus words on the cross when He said, Father forgive.... but...just because you haven't convinced me doesn't mean it isn't true. So for a brief moment in time let's assume that you are right, let's assume for the next question that Jesus did NOT say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

If He didn't say that then I still have a problem with His words in this passage...Luke 7:48 and Matthew 9:5 and others....should we assume all His words about forgiving sin are inserted later into the text and not part of the original? Why or why not?

98cwitr said:

Why do you think God would call someone He knows won't answer?

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*staff edit*

But, I would say for the very same reason many parents pray for their children that are in horrific situations.

1 Corinthians 13:5 states that Love is Selfless and 1 Corinthians 13:13 states that Hope is part of the Love equation, along with Faith.

Love isn’t rational by the human mind. It transcends reason and rips the most impenetrable walls down.

1 Corinthians 13:2 Rips theology to shreads and emphasizes that even the most perfect theology and understanding of theological mysteries is utterly worthless if it has not Love.

We are only known by our Love, according to scripture.

1 John 4:8 calls God Love. The very doctrine of Omnibenevolence comes from John the Beloved.

To say God doesn’t Love all, is to say that God made mistakes, because His very nature is Love and even the judgment that He will close time with, will come from His Love. Love brings justice beyond our comprehension and vengeance belongs to Him.

But, above all things, the only reason people relegate the Love of God to a select group, is so that they don’t have to Love all, as scripture asks we do.

Hebrews 11 hits the nail on the head. The people sawn in Twain Loved all, even their enemies, Just as “God with Us” taught us to do.

Theology is neat and clean, but the Love of God is incomprehensible. It has no boundary.


Thank you for allowing debate on this topic. I bid you, adieu.

98cwitr said:

Expanding from this very popular thread, I'd like to provide contrary evidence to the majority vote with the following scripture that we all seem to hold as a universal truth that is contextual accurate when talking about what love is and isn't:

1 Cor. 13:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So if this is our understood standard where God is Love, then how can we reject Universalism in that people go to hell, but are still loved by God.

I think we all can agree on the following:

>People go to hell because of their sin
>People are not forgiven of their sin due to disbelief and lack of real saving faith

If the above is universally true, then it stands to reason that God is keeping a record of their wrongdoing, but we see from the above accepted definition of love, that real love keeps no record of wrongs, therefore if Love = no record of wrongs, then all sin is forgiven if God loves you. If your sin is not forgiven, then it is still apparent, damning, and recorded. Therefore God, in keeping a record of your sin and withholding forgiveness, cannot love you as love is defined above.

I welcome you to change my mind on this. I've prayed over it and have yet to have a change in my own understanding.

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In the context of this passage, Paul is talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Corinthian's were a proud and wicked people who, even in their quest for God tended to put their gifts above others. Paul is telling them that it doesn't matter what the gift is, if it's not out of love, it is not a true and viable gift. Context, context, context is the key to understanding and the love to which Paul is pointing is to address a fundamental issues in the church.

While I believe you used an unrelated set of passages to make your point, I still believe I can address your concern. In the character of God, He is love, but He is also perfection. As He is perfect in every way, He cannot, not punish sin. When you examine the trends in the bible, a common one is God's expression of love for people, always giving them a way out. In the OT, those sojourning in the lands of Israel were invited to convert. Jesus grafts the gentile into the vine of the Jews. Salvation is always available and the price is the same for all - total love and dedication to God.

Jesus says the greatest commandment is to "Love the lord thy God with all they heart, all they soul and all thy might..." If we don't do that one commandment, even though He loves us, He must reject us. God's love is perfect and He wants the same in return - at least within our capability. He gives us chance after chance to turn to Him. To rest on Him.

Abraham was a pagan, yet heard the call of the lord and answered. Moses was raised an Egyptian, but heard the call and answered. Daniel, Joseph, the apostles, Paul, you, me. He calls to each of us and when we answer and we understand, we love Him as completely as we can and He saves us. But if we ignore Him, what other choice does He have? It's a two way streeet..."draw close to God and God will draw close to you."