God does not love everyone and the Bible says so (Change My Mind)

[98cwitr]

Expanding from this very popular thread, I'd like to provide contrary evidence to the majority vote with the following scripture that we all seem to hold as a universal truth that is contextual accurate when talking about what love is and isn't:

1 Cor. 13:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So if this is our understood standard where God is Love, then how can we reject Universalism in that people go to hell, but are still loved by God.

I think we all can agree on the following:

>People go to hell because of their sin
>People are not forgiven of their sin due to disbelief and lack of real saving faith

If the above is universally true, then it stands to reason that God is keeping a record of their wrongdoing, but we see from the above accepted definition of love, that real love keeps no record of wrongs, therefore if Love = no record of wrongs, then all sin is forgiven if God loves you. If your sin is not forgiven, then it is still apparent, damning, and recorded. Therefore God, in keeping a record of your sin and withholding forgiveness, cannot love you as love is defined above.

I welcome you to change my mind on this. I've prayed over it and have yet to have a change in my own understanding.

 

[razzelflabben]

Expanding from this very popular thread, I'd like to provide contrary evidence to the majority vote with the following scripture that we all seem to hold as a universal truth that is contextual accurate when talking about what love is and isn't:

1 Cor. 13:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So if this is our understood standard where God is Love, then how can we reject Universalism in that people go to hell, but are still loved by God.

I think we all can agree on the following:

>People go to hell because of their sin
>People are not forgiven of their sin due to disbelief and lack of real saving faith

If the above is universally true, then it stands to reason that God is keeping a record of their wrongdoing, but we see from the above accepted definition of love, that real love keeps no record of wrongs, therefore if Love = no record of wrongs, then all sin is forgiven if God loves you. If your sin is not forgiven, then it is still apparent, damning, and recorded. Therefore God, in keeping a record of your sin and withholding forgiveness, cannot love you as love is defined above.

I welcome you to change my mind on this. I've prayed over it and have yet to have a change in my own understanding.

Isn't it the law that is keeping the record of wrongs? The law is how we even know if we are wrong and the law only came because of Adam's sin...so isn't Adam's sin the only sin God is recording, all other is recorded by the law.

 

[Inkfingers]

I also hold to the "God does not love everyone" line and agree with your argument (that God keeping track of wrongs means he doesn't love those people).

 

[Tree of Life]

God may love someone in a sense but not love them in a saving way. We can put the question in another way:

"Is there any sense in which God loves unbelievers?"

I think the answer is yes. He does not love them like he loves his children, but he does do good for them and loves them in some sense.

 

[amariselle]

Expanding from this very popular thread, I'd like to provide contrary evidence to the majority vote with the following scripture that we all seem to hold as a universal truth that is contextual accurate when talking about what love is and isn't:

1 Cor. 13:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So if this is our understood standard where God is Love, then how can we reject Universalism in that people go to hell, but are still loved by God.

I think we all can agree on the following:

>People go to hell because of their sin
>People are not forgiven of their sin due to disbelief and lack of real saving faith

If the above is universally true, then it stands to reason that God is keeping a record of their wrongdoing, but we see from the above accepted definition of love, that real love keeps no record of wrongs, therefore if Love = no record of wrongs, then all sin is forgiven if God loves you. If your sin is not forgiven, then it is still apparent, damning, and recorded. Therefore God, in keeping a record of your sin and withholding forgiveness, cannot love you as love is defined above.

I welcome you to change my mind on this. I've prayed over it and have yet to have a change in my own understanding.

Why would you state that God is “withholding forgiveness”?

 

[Dave-W]

"Is there any sense in which God loves unbelievers?"

I think the answer is yes.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

From a human perspective: I love all races of people, but I do not love every individual from all races of people, and some people I love more than other people.

I'll leave it to someone else to provide a Divine perspective.

 

[Sanoy]

I think it's important to remember that Paul is speaking of Love, and not the complete nature of God. God is love, but He is also Justice. That is a dilemma that is overcome by Mercy, through Love.

 

[razzelflabben]

From a human perspective: I love all races of people, but I do not love every individual from all races of people, and some people I love more than other people.

I'll leave it to someone else to provide a Divine perspective.

this sounds like you are trying to equate Love with hate or indifference. The opposite of Biblical agape Love is pride not hate or indifference.

 

[Doug Melven]

I welcome you to change my mind on this. I've prayed over it and have yet to have a change in my own understanding.

God does love everybody. He loved them so much that he died for them.
John 3:16 1 John 2:2 Titus 2:11 2 Peter 3:9

If God could have just welcomed everybody into Heaven, I believe He would have.
But God is holy.
Jesus was the perfect solution to the problem.
He paid the debt we owe making it possible for us to have fellowship with God. This is why we were created to begin with.
But if someone is unwilling to accept Jesus' sacrificial payment, they will have to make there own payment which cannot be done.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think it's important to remember that Paul is speaking of Love, and not the complete nature of God. God is love, but He is also Justice. That is a dilemma that is overcome by Mercy, through Love.

but Love is also merciful so I'm not following your argument it is also just btw

 

[Dave-W]

I think we all can agree on the following:

>People go to hell because of their sin
>People are not forgiven of their sin due to disbelief and lack of real saving faith

No.

People go to hell because of their not being in a covenant relationship with God.

Forgiveness of sins is found IN THE COVENANT.

the New Covenant is accessed by grace and faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.

Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

[sdowney717]

IT is only because of God's great love for those persons He has foreknown from the beginning as His own (from the foundation of the earth, so it was set at that time), that they are born again, (made alive in the spirit) and saved. Ephesians 2:4-5

God's wrath abides on unbelief, on the unbelievers, who are disobedient to God, and they burn forever, so never are they redeemed from their sin, they die in their sins. God wont destroy what He loves, and He loves His children and it is that to which we were appointed, to be His own special people.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 New King James Version (NKJV)

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore [a]comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

 

[Sanoy]

but Love is also merciful so I'm not following your argument it is also just btw

Well that's a mereological essentialism discussion in and of itself. But Justice and Love refer to God's nature which is a delimma that must be overcome without a loss of "Greatness". Paul doesn't speak from within the delimma, his topic only refers to love specifically. Love does not hold a record, but Justice does.

 

[amariselle]

And speaking of love, Jesus did say this:

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The greatest example of love this world has ever seen, which was given because God so loved the world, was the sacrifice Christ made on the cross.

How anyone could believe that God (who freely gave His only begotten Son, the Son Who has invited all who are weary to “come” ) is “withholding forgiveness” and not being truly loving, is beyond me.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus Christ LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, but they are NOT OF the world. He loved them with a great love to the very end, which with God means a forever everlasting kind of great love.

John 13:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Washes the Disciples’ Feet
13 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.

2 And [a]supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,

 

[Chinchilla]

Expanding from this very popular thread, I'd like to provide contrary evidence to the majority vote with the following scripture that we all seem to hold as a universal truth that is contextual accurate when talking about what love is and isn't:

1 Cor. 13:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So if this is our understood standard where God is Love, then how can we reject Universalism in that people go to hell, but are still loved by God.

I think we all can agree on the following:

>People go to hell because of their sin
>People are not forgiven of their sin due to disbelief and lack of real saving faith

If the above is universally true, then it stands to reason that God is keeping a record of their wrongdoing, but we see from the above accepted definition of love, that real love keeps no record of wrongs, therefore if Love = no record of wrongs, then all sin is forgiven if God loves you. If your sin is not forgiven, then it is still apparent, damning, and recorded. Therefore God, in keeping a record of your sin and withholding forgiveness, cannot love you as love is defined above.

I welcome you to change my mind on this. I've prayed over it and have yet to have a change in my own understanding.

Paul spoke to brothers means alredy forgiven people , he holds no records against them , but with the wicked ( not forgiven ) he is angry every day .
Psalms 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

God loved world that he gave his Son for it you know John 3:16 but that does not mean he stops being The Judge , after grace period is over he will make sure people reap what they sow .

 

[razzelflabben]

Well that's a mereological essentialism discussion in and of itself. But Justice and Love refer to God's nature which is a delimma that must be overcome. Paul doesn't speak from within the delimma, his topic only refers to love specifically. Love does not hold a record, but Justice does.

How does justice hold a record? Justice is a carrying out of the law, as I said in the first of my posts, it is the law that keeps the record not God.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

this sounds like you are trying to equate Love with hate or indifference. The opposite of Biblical agape Love is pride not hate or indifference.

I am feeling the opposite of Biblical agape Love in your response, and it makes no sense. Biblical agape Love makes distinctions and if flows from the attributes of God, God is love, the source of all true love, and without Him there is no selfless love. Nowhere did I "equate Love with hate or indifference" at no point did I do any such thing. I did just the opposite in saying; "I do not love every individual from all races of people" in this I made a distinction from a general to a specific. Sorry you could not appreciate it, guess I should have expected as much.

 

[Sanoy]

How does justice hold a record? Justice is a carrying out of the law, as I said in the first of my posts, it is the law that keeps the record not God.

Justice refers to an ought and a duty to that ought. It entails a record, that is, the identification that a duty has not been fulfilled.