Justification by Faith Defended!

amariselle said:

The passage is not confusing. We "enter into rest" by faith in Christ. He is our Sabbath. Salvation is not something we earn by works.

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That's right, but we harm others if we suggest we don't need to obey Christ's commands. They are not extras for extra good, but essentially central to do in order not to meet the result Christ Jesus said to you and me would happen if we put them aside and don't confess/return to Him/follow and walk on His path for us --

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

His warning to us is real, not unimportant. Crucial. Without following Him, a person's faith house will fail in time, due to the storms of life. Destruction.
(Sometimes it can help people to read the main commentaries:
Matthew 7:27 Commentaries: "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-- and great was its fall." )


He over and over in the gospels gives us completely non-optional commands, that we must do (and confess when we do not), but they are the sweetest and lightest of burdens -- to love others, in deed, to forgive our brothers/sisters from our hearts.

If we don't we will surely experience exactly what Jesus Christ our Lord says will happen, as a 100% certainty, we can believe --

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:21-35 - English Standard Version

While some may speculate about OSAS -- perhaps every prodigal punished now into enough distress to finally turn and confess and repent, we don't know which may ultimately fail to heed the warnings, also in the Hebrews message: Hebrews 6 NIV

But this isn't a heavy burden, to love others. It relies on believing in Christ. Looking to Him. Abiding in Him. Focusing on Him and His words. When we do these faith things, then this is an easy burden.

So, the wonderful message of Ephesians 2:8-10 is always all 3 verses.

zoidar said:

... how did he separate the sheep and the goats? The text is pretty clear, by our deeds.

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He separated the sheep and the goats without saying anything as to why. He knows who are His. Thereafter He commended the sheep for their good works, and there is nothing wrong with that, obviously. He also made it clear that the Kingdom is an inheritance (prepared for the sheep "from the foundation of the world") [Matthew 25:33-34] What is an inheritance? Is it something one earns themselves? Or is it something another has earned that is received by one who hasn't done anything to earn it?

amariselle said:

I have yet to read a comment from anyone here who has said they are "not responsible for anything."

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Predestination (as presented by Calvinists), denial of free moral agency, faith alone plus nothing, grace alone plus nothing, ALL of it attempts to do just what I said. "I'm not responsible for anything where my salvation is concerned." This thread is chock full of these comments, they just won't come right out and say it because they know, deep down, how ridiculous it all is.

redleghunter said:

Indeed. But not at the expense of the immediate context.

The audience was Gentile and the Law of Moses was not a consideration in the immediate text. To go outside the text of the context to inject something not topical is pretext.

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But Paul did reference the Law of Moses in Ephesians 2:15.

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (Ephesians 2:15).

Christ did not abolish future commandments given by Him and His followers. That makes no sense. The commandments contained in ordinances were things like the ceremonial laws. When Jesus died upon the cross, He abolished the ceremonial laws. Jesus abolished these things. We can now come to Jesus by faith and not circumcision. Seeing Paul was talking to the Gentile churches about this very topic in his other letters, it is a pretty fair assumption that he is talking about the same thing here. For when a person says they are saved by circumcision, they are saying that they are saved by works. This is not the case if we come to Jesus by faith seeking His forgiveness (and by trusting in His death and resurrection).

14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
(Colossians 2:14-17).

MDC said:

Has anyone on this thread said we aren’t responsible for anything? NOPE! Your assertion is just a diversion from facing the truth head on. And a cover to hide the fact that you and others on here believe your works play a role in justification. Can you say Christ’s and His merits ALONE justify apart from men’s works?

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Yes. Roughly half (probably a bit more than that) of the comments here say exactly that. Yes I believe my choices and actions play a role in my salvation and in my justification. I choose to believe that God actually expects me to believe AND obey, because that's what He said. He said. Not me. That is faith. That is truth. All of it through the substance of my hope (the underlying reality upon which all else rests), which is the fact, the Rock, that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. I will not rob Him of the sacrifice He made for me by convincing myself that nothing I think, do, or say plays any part in the whole thing. That is what the father of lies would have me believe, but I refuse to listen to him or any of his messengers.

I mean, stop and think for a moment.
In Romans 4, when it says that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness, did Abraham do nothing prior to that point? No. God called Abraham to leave his home. Did Abraham say, "Hey, I believe you God!" "But I am not going to go." Did Abraham do that? No. Abraham obeyed as a part of his faith. That is true faith. So Paul here is saying we are not to put the cart before the horse. He is trying to refute the idea of "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which was the issue in Acts of the Apostles 15, i.e. See Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

Halbhh said:

That's right, but we harm others if we suggest we don't need to obey Christ's commands.

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I have never told anyone not to obey God's commands. The real harm comes when we tell others that they must do so to earn/keep their salvation. This is false teaching. We obey as faithful disciples because we are saved, not to be saved.

Halbhh said:

They are not extras for extra good, but essentially central to do in order not to meet the result Christ Jesus said to you and me would happen if we put them aside and don't confess/return to Him/follow and walk on His path for us --

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Again, telling people that they are saved by their own obedience is to tell them the earn their own salvation. This is false. We are saved by the obedience of One.

Halbhh said:

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

Click to expand...

Yes. It is wise to heed Christ's words. I have never said otherwise. The most important being in regard to salvation, which is clear. We do not earn it or deserve it.

Halbhh said:

His warning to us is real, not unimportant. Crucial. Without following Him, a person's faith house will fail in time, due to the storms of life. Destruction.

Click to expand...

One cannot mix salvation with discipleship.

Halbhh said:

He over and over in the gospels gives us completely non-optional commands, that we must do (and confess when we do not), but they are the sweetest and lightest of burdens -- to love others, in deed, to forgive our brothers/sisters from our hearts.

Click to expand...

We love because He first loved us. And how did He do that? By laying down His life for our salvation. To believe that He didn't do enough to save us and to keep us saved is to reject that the cross was sufficient, and therefore we fail to truly love Him in the first place.

Halbhh said:

If we don't we will surely experience exactly what Jesus Christ our Lord says will happen, as a 100% certainty, we can believe --

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:21-35 - English Standard Version

Click to expand...

No saved, born again, sealed believer will ever be lost or come under condemnation or the wrath of God. We have passed from death to life and are new creations in Christ. Jesus has promised He will never cast any of us out, that He will lose none and that no one can take us out of His hand. We need to believe this.

Halbhh said:

While some may speculate about OSAS -- perhaps every prodigal punished now into enough distress to finally turn and confess and repent, we don't know which may ultimately fail to heed the warnings, also in the Hebrews message: Hebrews 6 NIV

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It's good that you bring up Hebrews 6, it starts with this:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God- Hebrews 6:1

Halbhh said:

ut this isn't a heavy burden, to love others. It relies on believing in Christ. Looking to Him. Abiding in Him. Focusing on Him and His words. When we do these faith things, then this is an easy burden.

So, the wonderful message of Ephesians 2:8-10 is always all 3 verses.

Click to expand...

Yes:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Created unto good works, but not saved by those good works.

amariselle said:

I have yet to read a comment from anyone here who has said they are "not responsible for anything."

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So we have to be responsible by doing good works and live holy as a part of salvation?

amariselle said:

Yes, and this “yoke” is not burdensome and it is not a yoke of “you must work to stay saved.” Jesus invites people to come to Him and “rest.”

Which is also spoken of in Hebrews 4:

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

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Sometimes with complex wording like this passage, a person can learn from all the mainstream commentaries what they might not learn from just one person.

Especially since the stakes are so very high here, one might want to read all the way through several commentaries. --
Hebrews 4:10 Commentaries: For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

amariselle said:

I have never told anyone not to obey God's commands. The real harm comes when we tell others that they must do so to earn/keep their salvation. This is false teaching. We obey as faithful disciples because we are saved, not to be saved.

Click to expand...

Which means that you are giving a person an... "out."
They can just believe in Jesus and not worry about sin based on your saying this.
Unless of course you stress the importance over and over of how they must live holy and or be fruitful for God to be truly of God's kingdom. But the problem is that folks do not think that one sin can separate them from God.

Think about the most horrible sin you can think of right now. Maybe it is the abuse of a child. Would that not be grounds to be separated from God? What kind of sin would it take? None? Is there not some level of holiness required as a part of salvation?

Could Hitler been saved even while he murdered tons of Jews if he believed in Jesus?

112358 said:

Yes. Roughly half (probably a bit more than that) of the comments here say exactly that. Yes I believe my choices and actions play a role in my salvation and in my justification. I choose to believe that God actually expects me to believe AND obey, because that's what He said. He said. Not me. That is faith. That is truth. All of it through the substance of my hope (the underlying reality upon which all else rests), which is the fact, the Rock, that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. I will not rob Him of the sacrifice He made for my by convincing myself that nothing I think, do, or say plays any part in the whole thing. That is what the father of lies would have me believe, but I refuse to listen to him or any of his messengers.

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The fact that believers say that our works play no role towards our justification doesn’t mean what you said about not being responsible for anything. And you proved my point. You and others on here cannot say Christ’s and His merits alone justify. Because you have to include your works as being the grounds for justification. That’s not faith. True faith rest in the fact that Christ and He ALONE saves. That’s faith! Not what you asserted.

GodsGrace101 said:

Wow. You think I really should read the whole chapter of
2 Peter 2 so I could understand 2 Peter 2:20-22.

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Actually, I think people should read the entire Bible so they can better understand it. But in this case just the chapter will suffice (it takes less time to read it that to argue with me about it ).

112358 said:

Predestination (as presented by Calvinists), denial of free moral agency, faith alone plus nothing, grace alone plus nothing, ALL of it attempts to do just what I said. "I'm not responsible for anything where my salvation is concerned." This thread is chock full of these comments, they just won't come right out and say it because they know, deep down, how ridiculous it all is.

Click to expand...

This is what those who actually trust that Jesus did enough to save them say(as Scripture confirms)

"Jesus did everything necessary to save us and keep us saved. He paid it all on the cross, there is nothing lacking and we do not add our works to His finished work for salvation. So let us now go forward in joy as saved, born again believers and walk in the works God has prepared and which we were created unto. Let us be faithful disciples to the One Who did everything to save us."

This is what those who reject "eternal security" hear: "Don't obey Christ."

And many variations of this same argument continue. A person who truly trusts that "It is finished" and that Christ did not fail in what He came to do to save is repeatedly accused of telling others not to obey Jesus.

Bizarre. But proof that many simply hear what they want to hear and not a word more.

Jason0047 said:

So we have to be responsible by doing good works and live holy as a part of salvation?

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No, not as a part of salvation, as a part of faithful discipleship.

The works necessary for salvation were accomplished entirely by Christ. It is finished.

amariselle said:

I have never told anyone not to obey God's commands. The real harm comes when we tell others that they must do so to earn/keep their salvation. This is false teaching. We obey as faithful disciples because we are saved, not to be saved.



Again, telling people that they are saved by their own obedience is to tell them the earn their own salvation. This is false. We are saved by the obedience of One.



Yes. It is wise to heed Christ's words. I have never said otherwise. The most important being in regard to salvation, which is clear. We do not earn it or deserve it.



One cannot mix salvation with discipleship.



We love because He first loved us. And how did He do that? By laying down His life for our salvation. To believe that He didn't do enough to save us and to keep us saved is to reject that the cross was sufficient, and therefore we fail to truly love Him in the first place.



No saved, born again, sealed believer will ever be lost or come under condemnation or the wrath of God. We have passed from death to life and are new creations in Christ. Jesus has promised He will never cast any of us out, that He will lose none and that no one can take us out of His hand. We need to believe this.



It's good that you bring up Hebrews 6, it starts with this:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God- Hebrews 6:1



Yes:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Created unto good works, but not saved by those good works.

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Yes, but that we are already saved by Grace alone is what we both know.

Yes?

I'm saying, or failing to, that we cannot tell other people Ephesisans 2:8-9 as if verse 10 does not exist, but must include it.

All. Together.

(Could it be you feel I have to be wrong, and must be lost in a false works-salvation?? That would be a Tower of Babel moment surely.)

I'm saved solely by Grace through faith, alone, the free gift of God!

But maybe commentaries will help, about the question of what His warnings to us mean:

Matthew 7:27 Commentaries: "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-- and great was its fall."

Halbhh said:

Yes, but that we are already saved by Grace alone is what we both know.

Yes?

I'm saying, or failing to, that we cannot tell other people Ephesisans 2:8-9 as if verse 10 does not exist, but must include it.

All. Together.

(Could it be you feel I have to be wrong, and must be lost in a false works-salvation?? That would be a Tower of Babel moment surely.)

I'm saved solely by Grace through faith, alone, the free gift of God!

But maybe commentaries will help, about the question of what His warnings to us mean:

Matthew 7:27 Commentaries: "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-- and great was its fall."

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Perhaps commentaries can help at times, but I don't believe they are necessary. Thanks for sharing though

amariselle said:

Perhaps commentaries can help at times, but I don't believe they are necessary. Thanks for sharing though

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I've never read the commentaries on this verse until just now after I linked to them for you.

But reading them just now, they confirm the clear meaning we can hear if we just listen humbly (silencing our own talking/ doctrines, not trying to be His teacher, but instead to listen, to be His follower, listening to Him) -- the clear meaning that without doing His commands, individuals will be destroyed. Perish.

Example:

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
7:21-29 Christ here shows that it will not be enough to own him for our Master, only in word and tongue. It is necessary to our happiness that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another. This is his will, even our sanctification. Let us take heed of resting in outward privileges and doings, lest we deceive ourselves, and perish eternally, as multitudes do, with a lie in our right hand. ...

And more.

Jason0047 said:

Which means that you are giving a person an... "out."

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An "out" from what?

Jason0047 said:

They can just believe in Jesus and not worry about sin based on your saying this.

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That's the common accusation, but that's not actually something I have ever said.

Jason0047 said:

Unless of course you stress the importance over and over of how they must live holy and or be fruitful for God to be truly of God's kingdom.

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To what end? That they must do so to earn their own salvation? Sorry, I'm not going to lie to people. No one is or can earn their own salvation. No one.

Jason0047 said:

But the problem is that folks do not think that one sin can separate them from God.

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Nothing separates a saved, born again and sealed believer from God. Sin can of course hinder the relationship a believer has with God as His child, and may indeed lead to severe chastisement. But, will sin cause God to cast His adopted child into Hell? Scripture is clear, the answer is no.

Jason0047 said:

Think about the most horrible sin you can think of right now. Maybe it is the abuse of a child. Would that not be grounds to be separated from God? What kind of sin would it take? None? Is there not some level of holiness required as a part of salvation?

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The problem, as demonstrated in your words above, is that many just do not understand the depth and seriousness of sin. They love to pick out the "horrible" ones and point at others in condemnation, all the while believing that they are somehow only guilty of "little" sins at most, and so therefore they haven't done anything worthy of damnation. Scripture says otherwise.

Jason0047 said:

Could Hitler been saved even while he murdered tons of Jews if he believed in Jesus?

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Again, this is another example of what I'm talking about. Hitler could indeed have been saved as anyone else can be. Do you think Paul deserved to be saved?

Halbhh said:

I've never read the commentaries on this verse until just now after I linked to them for you.

But reading them just now, they confirm the clear meaning we can hear if we just listen humbly (silencing our own talking/ doctrines, not trying to be His teacher, but instead to listen, to be His follower, listening to Him) -- the clear meaning that without doing His commands, individuals will be destroyed. Perish.

Example:

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
7:21-29 Christ here shows that it will not be enough to own him for our Master, only in word and tongue. It is necessary to our happiness that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another. This is his will, even our sanctification. Let us take heed of resting in outward privileges and doings, lest we deceive ourselves, and perish eternally, as multitudes do, with a lie in our right hand. ...

And more.

Click to expand...

Actually, sanctification is also a work of the Spirit, not of our flesh. He is indeed the "Author and Finisher" of our faith. He completes the good work He began in us. No one is saved by living a Holy life, that is our "reasonable service" as faithful disciples. We are saved by His Holy and obedient life.

MDC said:

The fact that believers say that our works play no role towards our justification doesn’t mean what you said about not being responsible for anything. And you proved my point. You and others on here cannot say Christ’s and His merits alone justify. Because you have to include your works as being the grounds for justification. That’s not faith. True faith rest in the fact that Christ and He ALONE saves. That’s faith! Not what you asserted.

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For probably the 100th time:

We are saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven by works). Faith and righteousness are laws God established which govern the administration of grace. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. Righteousness is obedience to all of God's commands. Grace is located, grace is found, through faith and through righteousness. They are not a result of grace. They are where grace exists. Nowhere else. Grace, faith, and righteousness exist within the Body of Jesus Christ, His Church of the firstborn, His Bride, His Kingdom. They exist nowhere else, and none of them can exist without the others. They cannot be separated any one from the other. They are the vital organs of His body (Christians!). Remove a vital organ, and the body dies.

It is exactly the same as physical life, in that God located that life in a specific place. It is in the atmosphere. If we expect to enjoy the physical life we have been given we must remain in that place where He located that life. He located the life of a fish in water. Fish cannot live apart from water. Same exact idea. That is God's immutable law of nature. The penalty for violating that law is meted out without exception and without respect to persons.

Our spiritual life is located in His body, His church. If we expect to enjoy spiritual life we must remain in that place where He located that life. That is God's immutable spiritual law. We choose to enter into that place where spiritual life is located or not. We are either alive in Christ's Kingdom, or dead in Satan's kingdom. Two options only. The penalty for violating that law is meted out without exception and without respect to persons.

But I'm sure there is a line of people waiting to tell me why God's immutable laws should not be trusted or followed.