Homosexuality, Same Sex Marriage, and Why You're Wrong

DW1980

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Sorry, i don't want to argue much but maybe it is a twisted version of the eros love, i have a theory that when gay people get those tone of voice and mannerism and looks on their face is because they received that punishment in their bodies the bible talks about.
Also i'm no one to judge but a person cannot do gay sex and be in close relationship with God... it just not the way it is. The Holy spirit is even ´shrinked´ in your life even with masturbation only.

Hey

Lets leave masturbation out - it's got nothing to do with this thread.

I assume you are referring to Rom 1:27 which concludes "and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." I have checked the ESV and NLT too, both say "in themselves", not "their bodies". It has nothing to do with looks and mannerisms (or worse, as a few nut cases have suggested, HIV/AIDS), you don't need a theory - verses 28-30 tells us what happened to them (verse 27 is past tense, "received in themselves").

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.​

I struggle to see how this is a gay Christian, it's not me. I love God, I have faith, love and mercy. I'm not full of envy and murder and deceit etc. It is however, a good description of pagan idolaters in ancient times - which is actually what the passage is about (vs18-23). It's the consequence for rejecting God. In contrast, this is what Peggy Campolo (Tony Campolo's wife) said about gay and lesbian Christians:

The main body of the church here on earth has made it so difficult – so almost impossible for those children of God who happen not to be straight to be part of the church... They are the ones who are willing to suffer indignity and even persecution to be part of the church. When the church slammed it’s door in their faces, they kept knocking on that door until their knuckles bled. When the church sang Just As I Am, and meant everybody but them, they didn’t go away. Surely God’s LGBT children have demonstrated GRACE to those who have mistreated them.

Gay people may not be better Christians than straight people, but the gay people who still want to be part of the church are some of the best Christians I know. From them, I have learned what it means to stand up for yourself and offer grace at the same time. In an article I read, “That is our gift – that is the gift of all oppressed and marginalized people – we don’t have time for anything less than the Truth.”​
 
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jayem

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I'm asking why the OP believes that we should legally recognize any union just because the people involved are capable of consenting. Marriage isn't just about consent or romance, and we shouldn't be forced to recognize something as a marriage because two or more people agree to it between themselves.

I don't think ANY variety of human relationship must be legally recognized. But we live in a secular society. In civil matters, our supeme law is the Constitution--not the Bible.
And the Constitution prohibits a state from denying persons equal treatment under the law without due process. So if a state grants a special legal status to a pair-bond between opposite sex adults, is there any Constitutional basis to refuse that status to a same-sex couple that is alike in every other way?

That is the crux of the issue. All the theological and moralistic arguments are tangential and legally inconsequential.
 
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NBB

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Hey

Lets leave masturbation out - it's got nothing to do with this thread.

I assume you are referring to Rom 1:27 which concludes "and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." I have checked the ESV and NLT too, both say "in themselves", not "their bodies". It has nothing to do with looks and mannerisms (or worse, as a few nut cases have suggested, HIV/AIDS), you don't need a theory - verses 28-30 tells us what happened to them (verse 27 is past tense, "received in themselves").

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.​

I struggle to see how this is a gay Christian, it's not me. I love God, I have faith, love and mercy. I'm not full of envy and murder and deceit etc. It is however, a good description of pagan idolaters in ancient times - which is actually what the passage is about (vs18-23). It's the consequence for rejecting God. In contrast, this is what Peggy Campolo (Tony Campolo's wife) said about gay and lesbian Christians:

The main body of the church here on earth has made it so difficult – so almost impossible for those children of God who happen not to be straight to be part of the church... They are the ones who are willing to suffer indignity and even persecution to be part of the church. When the church slammed it’s door in their faces, they kept knocking on that door until their knuckles bled. When the church sang Just As I Am, and meant everybody but them, they didn’t go away. Surely God’s LGBT children have demonstrated GRACE to those who have mistreated them.

Gay people may not be better Christians than straight people, but the gay people who still want to be part of the church are some of the best Christians I know. From them, I have learned what it means to stand up for yourself and offer grace at the same time. In an article I read, “That is our gift – that is the gift of all oppressed and marginalized people – we don’t have time for anything less than the Truth.”​

They get those looks when they engage in homosexuality, those looks are not natural there is something spiritually twisted or wrong there that is for sure.
You have stumbling block there, gay sex and God do not work well together. Society says is ok but what God says?

Romans says gay sex is not natural:
´And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman...´
You don't need to check all of the bad actions listed in that passage to conclude this verse says is not natural.
 
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DW1980

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They get those looks when they engage in homosexuality, those looks are not natural there is something spiritually twisted or wrong there that is for sure.
You have stumbling block there, gay sex and God do not work well together. Society says is ok but what God says?

What "look" does someone "get" when they "engage in homosexuality"?! A lot of people are surprised that 4% of men are gay, 1-2% of women are lesbian. Why? Because most of us look perfectly normal. Plus, there's a guy I know who is camper than any gay man I know - but he's straight. Married with kids and loving it.

Romans says gay sex is not natural:
´And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman...´
You don't need to check all of the bad actions listed in that passage to conclude this verse says is not natural.

Lewis Smedes (a highly respected Evangelical scholar and ethicist) said this:

The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God and for this reason were abandoned by God, and being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity. The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for His grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God? Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex. And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than heterosexual people do...their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be.​
 
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NBB

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What "look" does someone "get" when they "engage in homosexuality"?! A lot of people are surprised that 4% of men are gay, 1-2% of women are lesbian. Why? Because most of us look perfectly normal. Plus, there's a guy I know who is camper than any gay man I know - but he's straight. Married with kids and loving it.



Lewis Smedes (a highly respected scholar and ethicist) said this:

The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God and for this reason were abandoned by God, and being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity. The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for His grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God? Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex. And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than heterosexual people do...their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be.​

But still says that is not natural. You don't need to be all the of what the passage says to arrive to the conclusion that still says is not natural.
And: ´Men did shameful things with other men.´ i guess this is reffering to gay sex as shameful...
 
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Kaon

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I totally agree that David and Jonathan were not in a sexual relationship. I've seen that argument and to be honest, I think it's desperate and silly. It ignores the culture (even today, in the Middle East, same-sex friends still show physical affection without any sexual connotation), and the fact that when David committed adultery, it was with a woman. So to me that's a non-starter. I don't believe we should torture the Scriptures to support a particular theological interpretation.

I am not sure I fully agree with a "next level". Procreation is certainly part of the original design, but it's not the only function of sexual intimacy. To reduce it to just procreation ignores the full scope of emotion and intimacy that we have. This is not about lust (as Rom 1:26-27 talks about), this is about how two gay or lesbian people who love each other should live. My answer is that we should live as close to God's design as possible - faithful, loving monogamous relationships (cf. Genesis 2:18; 1 Corinthians 7:9).

The next level is literally joining to your mate to form a literal ONE flesh; a child is a consequence. I don't think people see intercourse this way, which is why it is so easy to badtardize the activity, and marginalize it to a passion event. But, I didn't mean to repeat the cliche that sex is just for procreation. If it was, the Most High God would have made it automatic like the animals instead of pleasurable. It is to encourage us to continue to procreate on our own - continually - with ONE person you love.

I specifically used the phrase "next level" because although men or women can have homosexual sex (or even love,) they cannot go the the "next level" - the level that is consequential to intercourse - because you cannot make a product with your image. And, two images cannot join together as one flesh.

Intercourse is extremely sacred, and is treated as such by The Most High God. But, spiritual entities also exploit our ignorance of this sacred practice meant to be with a specific compliment of creation. This is a very serious issue for which most are dangerously unaware.
 
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DW1980

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But still says that is not natural. You don't need to be all the of what the passage says to arrive to the conclusion that still says is not natural.
And: ´Men did shameful things with other men.´ i guess this is reffering to gay sex as shameful...
I'd suggest since the word the Holy Spirit used was "lust", that ANY sex based on lust should be regarded as shameful. There are key words in the passage:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.​

The word "abandoned" for example, is the same word for "divorce" - which means choice is involved. As Lewis Smedes noted, being gay is not a choice. I can tell you I have never abandoned natural relations with women. The people Paul was talking about did - they embraced a faith that made good use of shrine prostitutes for same-sex rituals.

So again, when we ask about gay men (or lesbians) today, we are not talking about people who have abandoned natural relations, nor am I suggesting that acts based on lust are okay either.
 
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NBB

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I'd suggest since the word the Holy Spirit used was "lust", that ANY sex based on lust should be regarded as shameful. There are key words in the passage:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.​

The word "abandoned" for example, is the same word for "divorce" - which means choice is involved. As Lewis Smedes noted, being gay is not a choice. I can tell you I have never abandoned natural relations with women. The people Paul was talking about did - they embraced a faith that made good use of shrine prostitutes for same-sex rituals.

So again, when we ask about gay men (or lesbians) today, we are not talking about people who have abandoned natural relations, nor am I suggesting that acts based on lust are okay either.

I do not want to be dense, but you are trying to twist the interpretation of the bible to say gay sex is ok. abandoned natural relations doens´t mean you abandoned men-woman sex means that the natural sex is between a man and a woman and gay sex is unnatural.
That of the shrines and temples are more twisting! it doens´t say anything about that.
 
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DW1980

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I do not want to be dense, but you are trying to twist the interpretation of the bible to say gay sex is ok. abandoned natural relations doens´t mean you abandoned men-woman sex means that the natural sex is between a man and a woman.

To me this is talking about people who make a choice - the language the Holy Spirit inspired here doesn't allow for a blanket condemnation of people who have no choice, especially in the context.
 
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NBB

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To me this is talking about people who make a choice - the language the Holy Spirit inspired here doesn't allow for a blanket condemnation of people who have no choice, especially in the context.

I don't know man...
Shouldn't a christian consider being celibate then if it is so unchangeable for the sake of God?
There is a lot of straight people that are celibate or asexual.
 
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SilverBear

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I'd suggest since the word the Holy Spirit used was "lust", that ANY sex based on lust should be regarded as shameful. There are key words in the passage:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.​

The word "abandoned" for example, is the same word for "divorce" - which means choice is involved. As Lewis Smedes noted, being gay is not a choice. I can tell you I have never abandoned natural relations with women. The people Paul was talking about did - they embraced a faith that made good use of shrine prostitutes for same-sex rituals.

So again, when we ask about gay men (or lesbians) today, we are not talking about people who have abandoned natural relations, nor am I suggesting that acts based on lust are okay either.

Check the translation of the bible you are using, there have been a lot of subtle revisions in recent years to promote a certain agenda and this seems to be one of them.

Paul doesn't say :exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones in the sense that the actions were against the law(s) of nature if it were Paul would have written Μετήλλαξαν τὴν ενάντια στο νόμο χρῆσιν. what Paul wrote was: Μετήλλαξαν τὴν physikēn φυσικὴν chrēsin χρῆσιν.
:
physiken means to engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic or against the nature of that person or more simply an individual denying his/her true nature.
 
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dreadnought

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how does cherry picking from a book of rules that you personally don't follow encourage anything?
I've learned that if I obey the Lord's commandments, I have great peace of mind.
 
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hedrick

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I do not want to be dense, but you are trying to twist the interpretation of the bible to say gay sex is ok.
Remember that the rules of this forum don't permit such a discussion. I think the most that I can legitimately say is that I don't think the Bible speaks about the situation of Christian gays. That doesn't mean it explicitly says it's OK. For any more specifics, you'd need to look somewhere that a discussion if permitted.
 
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NBB

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Remember that the rules of this forum don't permit such a discussion. I think the most that I can legitimately say is that I don't think the Bible speaks about the situation of Christian gays. That doesn't mean it explicitly says it's OK. For any more specifics, you'd need to look somewhere that a discussion if permitted.

Oh i didn't know, i will try to not mention that, or read the forum rules sorry
But the bible says we as christians we must leave our sinful past life behind.
 
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dreadnought

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Do you read the posts you are responding to?
Yes, except if the original post is really long, I might just respond to the title of the thread.
 
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SkyWriting

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I look to the Holy Orthodox Church so what you think you know isn't relevant to my position.

In the Church, we can't accept or condone a same sex marriage. We can and will accept a person who is homosexual. Don't let this take years to figure out.

Outside of the Church it is none of our business. People are free to follow God or not.

Not what scripture says.


Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Romans 14:1-13
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Matthew 7:1-2
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Titus 3:2-7
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, ...

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

Proverbs 31:9
Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37-42
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...

Romans 12:16-19
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Corinthians 13:1-8
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

Romans 14:1
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
 
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