GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

Hello tall,

Yes I think those reading will see who has scripture on their side and who does not. That is why I am enjoying this conversation with you. It is good to share God's WORD. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Keep in mind what we are discussing here is Prophecy not salvation which is a different topic. I do not think anyone has a perfect understanding of all prophecy and no one will be lost because they do not understand all aspects of Prophecy, but they will be lost if they do not understand God's good news of salvation from sin.

On the same token those who continue in a life of known unrepentant sin will not enter the kingdom of Heaven (Hebrews 10:26-27; 6:4-8; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10). SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

This is the main purpose of this thread. Whether you believe this judgment happens before Christ's 2nd coming or after, does not make this judgment dissappear. The judgment is biblical and it will happen ready or not. My prayer is that I will see you in God's Kingdom as well as everyone here.

It is not the interpretation of Prophecy that will get one into God's Kingdom. It is believing and following all of God's WORD by faith that works by love. Those who love another have fulfilled God's Law because through faith they walk in his Spirit.
Those who say they know him and do not keep His Commandments have not seen him or know him.

It is God's Word that shows that God's people have the correct interpretation of Prophecy let's start here and see who God's Word describes as being his people

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HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOU KNOW GOD?

1 John 2
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4, He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3
3, And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4, Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5, And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6, Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9, Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

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WHO ARE GOD'S PEOPLE?

Revelation 12
17, And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Revelation 14
12, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

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WHO ARE THOSE THAT RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

Revelation 22
14, Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

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WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

ROMANS 1:5, By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

ROMANS 6:1-2, [1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. [2], How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

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DOES FAITH ABOLISH GOD'S LAW?

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then ABOLISH THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

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WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THOSE WHO CONTINUE IN SIN ONCE THEY RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH?

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

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So in summary God's WORD describes God's people as those who keep ALL of God's commandments. So who has God revealed the understanding of his Prophecies to? Let's have a look?

REVELATION 12:17 [17], And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Another reference to God's people; once again described as keeping the commandments of God. Notice they also have the TESTIMONY of JESUS?

What is the TESTIMONY OF JESUS? Let's look to the scriptures again..

REVELATION 19:10 [10], And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

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CONCLUSION: God's people are those who through faith keep all of God's Commandments; they also have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS that God's WORD says is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. So not only are God's people distinguished as keeping all of God's Commandments. They are also distinguished as God giving them the correct interpretation of the end day Prophecies.


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tall73 said:

Again, whether you get it, the readers will.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

The whole prophecy relates to the ceasing of the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary. The papacy continued doing what it did all along. And of course, we can repeat again, but this is not talking about the Day of Atonement anyway. It is talking about defilement by the little horn.

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Let's look at your interpretation of the scriptures again and let the reader decide as we add within scripture and chapter context to your interpretation of Daniel 8:13-14.

The question is asked in v13...

DANIEL 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Your claim here is that the prophecy in v13 is only talking about the ceasing of the activity of the "little horn" and also that Daniel 8:14 is not talking about the cleaning of the Sanctuary as outlined in Leviticus 16. So let's start by looking at the activity of the little horn.

The overall context is of v13...

1. The time periods that are being discussed in the restoration of the daily sacrifice (which is for sin) *Daniel 8:14

2. The restoration of the Sanctuary; daily sacrifice and God's truth with a connection to judgment as can be seen in *Daniel 8:11-14; Daniel 7:10

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Questions for consideration;

Q. What was the purpose of the daily sacrifices?
A. Forgiveness of SINS of God's People (Numbers 6:14; Leviticus 4-6)

Q. What was the purpose of the Sanctuary?
A. Forgiveness of SINS of God's People (Numbers 6:14; Leviticus 4-6)

Q. What was the purpose of the Sanctuary in relation cleansing ?
A. The REMOVAL of the SINS of God's people from God's presence and atonement for the SINS of God's people (Leviticus 16; 23:24-32)

As agreed on earlier, we both agree that it is the little Horn that causes all the problems.

After the little horns establishment it...

* Speaks great things against the most high (Daniel 7:8; 25)
* Casts down thrones, hosts and the stars of heaven (Daniel 7:9; 8:10)
* Tramples on the daily sacrifice and the Sanctuary and God’s truth (Daniel 8:11)
* Magnifies himself even to the prince of the host (Daniel 7:11)
* Has power to persecutes the saints of the most high (Daniel 7:21-25)
* Thinks to change times and laws (Daniel 7:25)

The judgement and the cleansing or restoration of the Sanctuary, the daily and God's truth, only takes place after all these things that the little horn does (Daniel 7:9-11; Daniel 8:11-14).

This is linked directly to Daniel 8:11-14 v13, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? v14, he said to me, To two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. In both Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 we see the parallel of the Judgment and the cleansing and restoring of the daily sacfrifice, the sanctuary and God's truth happening 2300 days/years after the establishment and activies of the "little horn".

This time frame puts both the judgement and the restoration of God's truth taking place well after the establishment of the NEW COVENANT, well after the death of Jesus where we have no more earthly Sanctuary.

However in the NEW COVENANT the earthly Sanctuary was only ever a pattern of the Heavenly. Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 cannot be talking about the earthly Sanctuary as the timeline is in the NEW COVENANT well after the establishment of the little horn.

Therefore it must be in reference to the ministration of the Heavenly Sanctuary and Christs work on our behalf and confession of sin (daily sacrifice) so now we apply type to anti-type

HEBREWS 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

HEBREWS 8:5 Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

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As shown in the earlier posts the scriptures of Daniel * show that..

DANIEL 7 AND DANIEL 8 * There are parallels in both Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 and their connection to the restoration of the daily sacrifice, Sanctuary and God's truth at the end of the 2300 day/year prophecy?

DANIEL 7 AND DANIEL 8 * Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 show the restoration of the Sanctuary and the daily sacrifice linked to judgement (Dan 7:10) which is for the cleansing and restoration of the Sanctuary (Dan 8:14)

DANIEL 7 * Says the judgement is determined by what is written in the books that were opened (Daniel 7:10). Other scripture show what books are used in the judgment which include the book of life and the book of rememrance (deeds) Rev 3:5; 8; 17:8; 20:12-13; 15; Mal 3:16.

DANIEL 7 * It is the books that are used in the judgment that finalise who God's people are that are given the Kingdom of God at the completion of the judgement.

DANIEL 8 Judgement has everything to do with the day of Atonement and the cleansing of the hevenly Sanctuary as the kingdom of God is given to God's people after judgment has been completed (Daniel 7:26-27). The outcome of the cleansing of the Sanctuary in the earthly type that points to the heavenly is that on completion of it results from the removal of ALL SIN from God's people and the presence of God.

This is the final act of God for God's people for the year representing the final act in God's plan of salvatin for all mankind (his people). This applied under the NEW COVENANT and Heavenly Sanctuary.

During this time Jesus not only has the role of the High Priest but the minsistration of the judgment as God and the minstration to deliver judgment pronounced as KING. The following show only a few scripture of the different ministrations of Jesus as High Priest, God, Judge and King of Kings.

Jesus as HIGH PRIEST in the New Covenant

HEBREWS 6:20 [20], Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

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Jesus as GOD in the New Covenant

PSALMS 45:6 [6], Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.

HEBREWS 1:8 [8], But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.

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God as judge

REVELATION 22:11-12
[11],He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

ISAIAH 33:22 [22], For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

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Jesus as KING in the New Covenant

REVELATION 17:14 [14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

REVELATION 19:16 [16], And he has on his robe and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

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CONCLUSION:

God's Word says that the cleansing of the sanctuary of Daniel 8:14 is in reference to the heavenly for the removal of the sins of God's people. v14 answers the question of v13 " For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed or restored; referring to the restoration and cleansing typified in the day of atonement; God truth and the daily sacrifice.

This takes place 2300 years after the establishment of the little horn leading us into the NEW COVENANT with application here not to the earthly Sanctuary that was a copy, but to the Heavenly Sanctuary where Jesus is not only High Priest but God and KING which fulfills all aspects of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 in relation to judgment, cleansing and restoring of the Sanctuary and God's truth prior to the everlasting kingdom of God being given to God's saints.

Sorry tall, God's Word disagrees with your interpretation here. Maybe you can pray about it. Or we may agree to disagree.

I hope to see you one day in God's Kingdom.

Thanks for sharing

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tall73 said:

Except what it says is how long the trampling ,etc. How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

By the details of the prophecy that should END in 1844, and it did not.
And of course you can say I am repeating again. The reader can judge.
But your stopping of the little horn is 173 years late and counting.

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Let's look at the scripture which answers the question of Daniel 8:11-13.

DANIEL 8:14 [14], And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

This scripture is not saying that the little horn power ends after the 2300 year prophecy, it is saying that God's truth, the Sanctuary and the daily are no longer being trampled on and are restored to it's rightful place for the cleansing as typified in the day of atonement of the earthly Sanctuary for the removal of sin from the presence of God and the atonement of God's people. This is taking place at the same time as the investigative judgment of Daniel 7:10;26-27 prior to the 2nd coming and God's kingdom being given to his people.

Let's look at the word "cleansed" used here.

H6663 צָדַק tsadaq (tsaw-dak') v. 1. to be right (in a moral or forensic sense).
cleanse, clear self, be, do justice be turn to righteousness. A primitive root; to be (causatively, make right (in a moral or forensic sense) -- cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just(-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be turn to) righteous(-ness).

Niph`al Perfect3masculine singular וְנִצְדַּק קֹדֶשׁ consecutive Daniel 8:14 the holy place shall be put right, in a right condition (MartiKau Buhl SS; Bev Dr MartiComm. be justified, its cause

NASB Translation; acquit (1), acquitted (1), declare you right (1), do justice (1), give him justice (1), just (2), justified (5), justifies (1), justify (5), justifying (2), lead the to righteousness (1), made your appear righteous (2), properly restored (1), proved right (1), proved...righteous (1), right (4), righteous (9), vindicated (1), vindicates (1).

This is the starting of cleansing not the completion of it. How long this process takes place is not stated in the scripture. Only that at this time God's truth will be restored and the Sanctuary and the daily will no longer be trampled on by the "little horn". The word used here is in reference to restoration or being made right again after the 2300 years.

The English word used here as cleansed although correct also means restoration which is also correct. This can be seen in the many translations used which have two variations.

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Restored; made right; rightful state..

New International Version
He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

New Living Translation
The other replied, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be made right again."

English Standard Version
And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

Berean Study Bible
He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

New American Standard Bible
He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

Christian Standard Bible
He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored."

Contemporary English Version
The other answered, "It will be 2,300 evenings and mornings before the temple is dedicated and in use again."

Good News Translation
I heard the other angel answer, "It will continue for 2,300 evenings and mornings, during which sacrifices will not be offered. Then the Temple will be restored."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored."

International Standard Version
"He told me, 'For 2,300 days. Then the Holy Place will be restored.'"

NET Bible
He said to me, "To 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be put right again."

New Heart English Bible
He said to me, "To two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be restored to its rightful state."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He told me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be made acceptable to God."

New American Standard 1977
And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

Young's Literal Translation
And he saith unto me, Till evening -- morning two thousand and three hundred, then is the holy place declared right.

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Cleanse; cleansed

King James Bible
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

King James 2000 Bible
And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

American King James Version
And he said to me, To two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

American Standard Version
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed.

English Revised Version
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he said to me, Until two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

World English Bible
He said to me, To two thousand and three hundred evenings [and] mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

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CONCLUSION:

Sorry tall, once again God's Word highlighted above does not suport your teaching. Daniel 8:14 is saying that God's truth, the Sanctuary, daily will all be restored at the end of the 2300 years to it's rightful place with application to beginning the heavenly ministration of the day of Atonement under the NEW COVENANT.

The outcome of the investigative judgment in Daniel 7:10; 26-27 and the cleansing of the Sanctuary in Daniel 8:14 is the 2nd coming under the New Covenant and God's everlasting Kingdom being given to his saints.

Thanks for sharing,

Hope this helps.

tall73 said:

So you disagree with these statements by Ellen White regarding her vision?

Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.

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Now your taking writings out of context again. The focus of this passage was the first vision and walking the narrow path of believing and following the Word of God with application to the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4 and the 2nd coming.

The passage you quote is referring to those who turn away from God's Word and lose sight of Jesus. Your tacking out a small section of a large vision and applying it to something not being discussed.

If anyone turns away from God's WORD to return to a life of sin, they will be judged for it.

tall73 said:

So tell me, why do you think she left off the first part of the verse?

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Depends on the topic, context and point being applied and the application of the point in the scripture being referred to.

tall73 said:

I agree no human has a perfect understanding of prophecy. However, that does not explain why Ellen White, after the failure of the events to come to pass, still said that God entrusted the message to Miller:

Angels of God accompanied William Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted, fearlessly proclaiming the message committed to his trust.

She says God entrusted the message--that Jesus was coming in 1843--to Miller.
Do you agree with Ellen White on this point?

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I believe God did entrust these scriptures to Miller. Did Miller get the application and understandting of these scriptures correct? Absolutely not. Did God correct the understanding of these scriptures? Absolutely.

tall73 said:

I quote Ellen White to establish what Adventists teach.

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I do not see it that way to be honest. It seems you quoted EGW and misappied what was being said as her application was to the Heavenly Sanctuary and the NEW Covenant under the different ministrations Jesus has while you were applying what she was saying to the earthly.

This was a misapplication of what was being said. That is why the scriptures in regards to the ministration of Jesus and his role as our High Priest, God and King were shared with you earlier.

tall73 said:

So then, according to Leviticus 16, the sanctuary must be cleansed every year.....because of the activity of the little horn?

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The heavenly applicaion of the day of atonement and the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary is for the removal of all the sins of God's people like in the type of Leviticus 16.

We are in the NEW Covenant now not the OLD Covenant.

tall73 said:

No, that is not it. So if the little horn caused all the problems that need restoring, then you have the wrong cleansing.

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Sorry tall, not at all the wrong cleansing is thinking Jesus needs to take all the furniture out of the Heavenly Sanctuary and wash it in a river somewhere .

The cleansing of the Sanctuary and the day of atonement has always only been for the removal of SIN caused by God's people as shown in Leviticus 16.

Hope this is helpful.

tall73 said:

And you just left the context. The question is not what does cleansing mean in general. It is what does it mean in the passage.

For instance, was the cleansing done here the Day of Atonement?:

II Chronicles 29:15 And they gathered their brethren, sanctified themselves, and went according to the commandment of the king, at the words of the Lord, to cleanse the house of the Lord. 16 Then the priests went into the inner part of the house of the Lord to cleanse it, and brought out all the debris that they found in the temple of the Lord to the court of the house of the Lord. And the Levites took it out and carried it to the Brook Kidron.

No, it was not the Day of Atonement. They removed the debris because they had sinfully neglected the temple.

And in Daniel 8 it is the activity of the little horn that caused the issue

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Sorry tall,

Not at all my friend the rest of the post provided to you not only defines the words used for cleanse and the activities of the little horn but provide the overall context of events before and after with application to the correct meaning of the scriptures.

Taking a small section out of a much larger post that shows both context and word meaning and saying the section posted is not showing context is denying the rest of the post provided to you. I suggest you read the whole post which provides tha context that you have left out of your interpretation of the scriptures here.

Your mistake here is you have an misapplication of the scriptures from 2 Chron 29:15 because this is an application to the defilement of the earthly Sanctuary by King Ahez yet the prophecy of Daniel 8 is 2300 years after the establishment of the little Horn. This puts the application of the cleansing to the Heavenly Sanctuary where there has been no defilement only a misunderstanding of God's truth (Word).

So let's get honest here. How does your application of the scriptures apply to the heavenly Sanctuary? Is Jesus taking all the furniture out of the heavenly Sanctuary and washing it? This is a different application of cleaning not restoring and has no application to what is being discussed.

Sorry tall. Your interpretation here does not really fit in with the scriptures already provided and has no application to the heavenly Sanctuary. However the antitype of the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the day of atonement and removal of the sins of God's people from the presence of God and atonement along with the investigative judgment prior to the everlasting kingdom of God being given to the saints certainly does.

Hope this helps.

tall73 said:

I am not mixing it up at all. I have no issue with the notion of Jesus being both High Priest and King.

I am noting what Ellen White is saying.

If you go only by the Scripture, you have no reason to defend her on this point. But she is considered inspired by Adventists, so I am addressing her points. People can read what she said.

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Indeed but you are applying what she has said with application to the earthly not the heavenly to which she was referring to. The quotation you apply was in application to Christs role as High Priest in the cleansing of the Sanctuary; As God in the judgment and as KING to deliver judgment. These are all applied to the NEW Covenant cleansing of the Sanctuary and application from Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

Your interpretation to what she was saying was strictly to the earthly putting a wrong interpretation on what was being said.

Scriptures already provided to show the different ministrations of Jesus compared to the Levitical Priesthood many times now. You say you accept this but keep repeating yourself showing you have not.

I have no need to defend anyone the Scripture has already done this.

tall73 said:

Not at all. He reigns over all things and exercises that authority on behalf of the church. You are not arguing with me on this point, but with what Ellen White wrote. If you have no interest in what she wrote, then move along.

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Then why provide quotes from EGW and Christs role as High Priest, God and King in the heavenly Sanctuary under the NEW COVENANT and apply interpretation strictly to the earthly application of the Levitical Priesthood in Leviticus 16? This is clearly an incorrect application of both scripture and the quotes you were providing from EGW. With all respect.

Thanks for sharing.