Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

dzheremi · Jun 5, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
Unless a person has lived in a place under Sharia law-- where all persons are banned from saying "I believe in Christ and am a Christian" on severe penalty, I don't think folks on this site realize how these CF rules do-- how painful it is to be banned from saying the thing which defines the core of who you are and your discipleship to Christ (Act 11:26).

Okay...

Not to be too on the nose about it, but since I belong to a native Middle Eastern/North African church, I'm pretty sure I have had more exposure to and conversation with other Christians who have lived under Islamic law of this or that variety than probably most people posting here have, and I don't think any of the Christians I know would find this comparison at all appropriate.

Anto9us · Jun 5, 2018

So you think, dzheremi, that the "new guideline" is NOT aimed at Mormons calling themselves Christians -- but only against regular Nicene Christians posting that Mormons are Christian?

Well, I await clarification on THAT - but in any case all I can do is NOT call Mormons Christians myself.

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2018

withwonderingawe said:
Perhaps the problem lies with using the word Christian to = saved.

There are a lot of people sitting in Church who are unsaved yet they consider themselves Christian.

Matt 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Lot of people running around casting out devils right now.

What I'm trying to say is that to the world the word 'Christian' is an umbrella word covering most anyone who claims to be a follower of Jesus. However Evangelicals have usurped the word to mean; only those who believe what they believe are saved thus can call themselves Christians.

Several years ago 21 Coptic Christians where beheaded for their faith, a group of Evangelicals began calling them non Christian and so considered these men damned to hell even though they were martyred. Do any of you understand how repulsive that is, it gave Evangelicalism a black eye.

In Mormonism/Christian these men may not have had the full light of Christ but they had a deep faith in Christ and the Lord will accept their sacrifice, they are saved and on their way to the Celestial Kingdom.

There in lies a huge differences between us. In Evangelicalism salvation is based on believing A,B and C about God. In Mormonism salvation is based in becoming one with him by doing "the will of my Father which is in heaven" as we do A, B and C will be revealed to us.

Salvation doesn't occur without believing the truth. Mormons require members to believe that Joseph Smith restored the true church of Christ. Then you come on here and pretend you are just one of us. Don't pretend that Mormons are all-inclusive; you aren't.

The Bible says that those who preach another gospel or a perversion of the gospel are accursed.

Galatians 1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This site isn't owned by the Mormon church and has the right to inform others of the rules and for those who wish to post here to know that specific rules govern this site. Mormons love laws, but apparently not the ones they did not make.

tampasteve · Jun 5, 2018

dzheremi said:
I kind of doubt Mormons' posts would be deleted, but it seems likely given the warning already given in the other thread that perhaps if people continue to post these "Come on guys, Mormons are Christians too!" types of posts, then those people could run into trouble with the mods even if (or perhaps because) they never saw that other post reiterating the site's official position, or otherwise did not know that this the site's position on Mormons and other anti-Trinitarian religions. That's why I posted it here, in response to yet another "Mormons are Christians too" post. No they are not, and people need to stop posting otherwise. Have whatever personal conviction you want about Mormons, but posting that Mormons are Christians has already been clearly stated by the site's staff to warrant possible moderation.

Comments about how such site self-definitions or decisions are "infantile" are really uncalled for and not germane to anything.

withwonderingawe said:
So I'm suppose to call myself non Christian?

If they band us then where will the discussion go? This is a debate board there is suppose to be disagreement.

Jane_Doe said:
Unless a person has lived in a place under Sharia law-- where all persons are banned from saying "I believe in Christ and am a Christian" on severe penalty, I don't think folks on this site realize how these CF rules do-- how painful it is to be banned from saying the thing which defines the core of who you are and your discipleship to Christ (Act 11:26).

It would do well to start a ticket in support to clear this issue up. The specific directive in the post from admin was for that thread. I do not know if LDS will face staff action in other threads that they are allowed to post in. But speculation is not going to help anyone.

Jane_Doe · Jun 5, 2018

tampasteve said:
It would do well to start a ticket in support to clear this issue up. The specific directive in the post from admin was for that thread. I do not know if LDS will face staff action in other threads that they are allowed to post in. But speculation is not going to help anyone.

I did ask.

The new rules are for any thread anywhere. An LDS person is allowed to call themselves a "disciple of Christ" which is the Biblical definition of the word "Christian" (Act 11:26) but an LDS person is not allowed use that word to describe themselves.... it is.. how would you, another lover of Christ, like to be forbidden from saying what you are?

dzheremi · Jun 5, 2018

Anto9us said:
So you think, dzheremi, that the "new guideline" is NOT aimed at Mormons calling themselves Christians -- but only against regular Nicene Christians posting that Mormons are Christian?

I would think so, as of course there is a difference between a Mormon self-identifying as Christian and arguing that Mormons ought to be considered Christians on a website that does not consider them to be. But I too await clarification.

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2018

withwonderingawe said:
...

In Mormonism/Christian these men may not have had the full light of Christ but they had a deep faith in Christ and the Lord will accept their sacrifice, they are saved and on their way to the Celestial Kingdom.

There in lies a huge differences between us. In Evangelicalism salvation is based on believing A,B and C about God. In Mormonism salvation is based in becoming one with him by doing "the will of my Father which is in heaven" as we do A, B and C will be revealed to us.

This part of your post is deceptive and a suggestion that Mormons are more accepting of differences in doctrine. That is NOT true.

Mormons are required to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. To even get in the so-called Celestial Kingdom, a person is required to be baptized into the Mormon church. I would have to be judged worthy by Mormon leaders to be re-baptized. My children were never baptized in your church, and would need to be baptized into it. They would have to obey several exclusively Mormon laws. But getting into the CK isn't eternal life. In order to gain entrance into the Presence of your Gods/gods even more laws and ordinances have to be obeyed; that would be entrance to eternal life.

Doctrine and Covenants 84
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.*

*Mormonism

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
I did ask.

The new rules are for any thread anywhere. An LDS person is allowed to call themselves a "disciple of Christ" which is the Biblical definition of the word "Christian" (Act 11:26) but an LDS person is not allowed use that word to describe themselves.... it is.. how would you, another lover of Christ, like to be forbidden from saying what you are?

Why are Mormons not satisfied to call themselves Latter-day Saints?

Jane_Doe · Jun 5, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
Why are Mormons not satisfied to call themselves Latter-day Saints?

Are you content to call yourself a "Protestant" and to be forbidden to call yourself a "Christian"?

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2018

He is the way said:
Everyone believes they are members of Jesus Christ's true church. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, I am a Christian.

Your church is not named the Church of Jesus Christ.

The LDS Church traces its founding to April 6, 1830, when Joseph Smith and five other men formally established the Church of Christ.[1][2] The church was known by this name from 1830 to 1834.[3][4]

In the 1830s, the fact that a number of U.S. churches, including some Congregational churches and Restoration Movement churches, also used the name "Church of Christ" caused a considerable degree of confusion.[4] In May 1834, the church adopted a resolution that the church would be known thereafter as "The Church of the Latter Day Saints".[4][5] At various times the church was also referred to as "The Church of Jesus Christ",[6] "The Church of God",[6] and "The Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints".[3][4]
Name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Wikipedia

dzheremi · Jun 5, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
Are you content to call yourself a "Protestant" and to be forbidden to call yourself a "Christian"?

That's not an apt comparison, because according to the definition used by this website and Christianity more generally, so long as Protestants adhere to Nicene Trinitarianism (which they do), Protestant is a subset of the larger Christian community.

Whereas Mormons complaining about not being identified as Christians or not being allowed to identify themselves as such is a bit more like a Muslim or a Hindu claiming that they are just as much a follower of Jesus as anyone who is uncontroversially accepted as a Christian, so why can't they call themselves one too.

Rescued One · Jun 5, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
Are you content to call yourself a "Protestant" and to be forbidden to call yourself a "Christian"?

Don't even go there! I was excommunicated based solely on not believing Mormonism and some Mormons shunned me. You can go elsewhere and call yourself anything you like.

Jane_Doe · Jun 5, 2018

dzheremi said:
That's not an apt comparison,

Doesn't answer the question.

How would YOU feel to be in a place which you were forbidden to call yourself a "Christian" because of how that place choose to define the word?

withwonderingawe · Jun 5, 2018

dzheremi said:
I would think so, as of course there is a difference between a Mormon self-identifying as Christian and arguing that Mormons ought to be considered Christians on a website that does not consider them to be. But I too await clarification.

Well that I always respected,

Jane_Doe · Jun 5, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
some Mormons shunned me.

I'm sorry you were treated badly by some individuals. Maybe you can understand what it is to be systematically discriminated against here for loving Christ a certain way.

dzheremi · Jun 5, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
Doesn't answer the question.

How would YOU feel to be in a place which you were forbidden to call yourself a "Christian" because of how that place choose to define the word?

I would voluntarily remove myself from such a place, as the Christian character of the Coptic Orthodox confession is undeniable, so any such restriction would be a sign of deep theological and historical ignorance which it would most likely be far beyond my ability to do anything about. I don't believe the same can be said about Mormonism, as it can be argued that the deeper one looks into it the less and less Christian it looks.

Jane_Doe · Jun 5, 2018

dzheremi said:
I would voluntarily remove myself from such a place

So if you were in my shoes you would walk away from this site?

dzheremi · Jun 5, 2018

withwonderingawe said:
Well that I always respected,

Yeah. Exactly. That's fine.

I mean, I don't make the rules here (only point them out, on occasion), but even though this one is one that I happen to agree with, I don't see why a Mormon who is respectful of the rules should have anything to fear from this guideline. Sure, it's not ideal if we compare it against what Mormons would prefer, but this is not a Mormon website to begin with, so it shouldn't be run according to what Mormons would like to be the case.

Jane_Doe · Jun 5, 2018

dzheremi said:
Yeah. Exactly. That's fine. I mean, I don't make the rules here (only point them out, on occasion), but even though this one is one that I happen to agree with, I don't see why a Mormon who is respectful of the rules should have anything to fear from this guideline. Sure, it's not ideal if we compare it against what Mormons would prefer, but this is not a Mormon website to begin with, so it shouldn't be run according to what Mormons would like to be the case.

I will abide by the rules, though I adamantly disagree with them and find them (in this example) to be harmful.

dzheremi · Jun 5, 2018

Jane_Doe said:
So if you were in my shoes you would walk away from this site?

If it were so important to me that I be able to argue against the rules of the website, then yes.

That's the thing: You can be a Mormon here. Nobody is stopping you. You just can't violate the rules of the website in doing so, same as when I violate the rules of the website according to the judgment of the mods, I get my posts edited/deleted, get warnings in my inbox, etc. The fact that the rules are perhaps something other than what you would like them to be is something that you have to decide whether you're willing to put up with for the sake of posting here and interacting with others on this particular website. Nobody is owed a forum in which they can say anything they want in any way they want to say it.

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