What atheists fail to understand

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Atheists fail to understand that believers don't become believers because they go to church a lot or listen to very charismatic preachers. They believe because of experiencing highly improbable events that common sense insists can not be attributed to blind coincidence alone.

If they did understand this they wouldn't say things like well adam and eve never existed or there was no flood etc..... Because they would understand that a persons faith doesn't come from a book. It comes from experiencing things that you can't possibly believe is merely coincidental. That life isn't just a mere coincidence of coincidences. For example imagine the most improbable things happening to you time after time again. After a long enough time period even the hardest atheist would have to question his atheism. While life is not as extreme as this I think you can at least see where a believer is coming from.
 

dlamberth

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While life is not as extreme as this I think you can at least see where a believer is coming from.
Just a thought, those are your thought's and I know for a fact that they do not speak for all Lovers of God.
 
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Episaw

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Just a thought, those are your thought's and I know for a fact that they do not speak for all Lovers of God.
No, you don't. To be able to say that you have to ask my opinion and every other lover of God on the planet and you have not done this.

To tell the truth, all you can say is that I have no evidence for this but I reckon that lot of other lovers of God would not agree with you. Beyond that is a lie.
 
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Episaw

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Exactly. Atheism is simply self-delusion. Not a very good idea.
Soooooooooooo true. Atheism is NOT a very good idea. In fact, it is a fool's paradise and I will tell you why. You have to have humungous faith that you are right without any EVIDENCE.
 
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mindlight

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Atheists fail to understand that believers don't become believers because they go to church a lot or listen to very charismatic preachers. They believe because of experiencing highly improbable events that common sense insists can not be attributed to blind coincidence alone.

A key difference between atheists and Christians is the movement from a perspective dictated by chance and blind natural forces to one that accepts life is miraculous.

If they did understand this they wouldn't say things like well adam and eve never existed or there was no flood etc..... Because they would understand that a persons faith doesn't come from a book. It comes from experiencing things that you can't possibly believe is merely coincidental. That life isn't just a mere coincidence of coincidences. For example imagine the most improbable things happening to you time after time again. After a long enough time period even the hardest atheist would have to question his atheism. While life is not as extreme as this I think you can at least see where a believer is coming from.

The bible is more credible and powerful than you grant it.

Gods word will not return to Him empty but will accomplish the purpose for which he sends it.
 
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Episaw

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A key difference between atheists and Christians is the movement from a perspective dictated by chance and blind natural forces to one that accepts life is miraculous.

One thing I have found in dealing with atheists is that they know very little about anything. They are so wrapped up in their little world of me, myself and I they cannot see the wood for the trees and for that reason they are up the creek without a paddle.

Take them out of their comfort zone and they are flailing around to try and cover their tracks. I don't know how many atheists I have asked the question "How did life begin" and everyone has admitted they did not know because evolution is not concerned with a question like that.

You bet it isn't because as soon as God enters the equation it ceases to be a scientific or evolutionary question, it becomes a philosophical one and they are behind the eight ball on that one.

Unless they can discuss everything on the basis of 2 + 2 = 4, they are floundering ducks.

Of course, they are going to tell you that life is all about 2 + 2 = 4 so I am going to ask them what formula I have to put into practice to be able to love my wife?

Perhaps kiss + kiss = lips.
 
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jacknife

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Atheists fail to understand that believers don't become believers because they go to church a lot or listen to very charismatic preachers. They believe because of experiencing highly improbable events that common sense insists can not be attributed to blind coincidence alone.

If they did understand this they wouldn't say things like well adam and eve never existed or there was no flood etc..... Because they would understand that a persons faith doesn't come from a book. It comes from experiencing things that you can't possibly believe is merely coincidental. That life isn't just a mere coincidence of coincidences. For example imagine the most improbable things happening to you time after time again. After a long enough time period even the hardest atheist would have to question his atheism. While life is not as extreme as this I think you can at least see where a believer is coming from.
A lot of us get that, the whole pointing out that personal evidence that was enough to convince one person isn't enough to convenience us is kind of our sthick.
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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A lot of us get that, the whole pointing out that personal evidence that was enough to convince one person isn't enough to convenience us is kind of our sthick.

So you don't think if you experienced improbable things over and over it would make you question your atheism? There has to be some point at which you would. If there is no point then thats pretty incredible.
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Perhaps atheists don't have that point and thats what seperates them for believers. I really don't know. I do believe that God has his select. I don't want that to be twisted to make it seem like God has created people with no chance to be saved. But I do believe if he has the ability to know who would choose him then he could then set those people up to have experiences that would lead to belief in him. And people who want no part of him will clearly in this case have no possible experiences in which they would accept him. One of these has to be true. Either there is a point at which an atheist would have to come to the conclusion God exists or because there is no such point because he will always reject him, experiences are irrelevant.
 
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jacknife

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So you don't think if you experienced improbable things over and over it would make you question your atheism? There has to be some point at which you would. If there is no point then thats pretty incredible.
Maybe, what do you define as a "improbable thing"?
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Maybe, what do you define as a "improbable thing"?

Have you ever had times in your life where all hope seemed to be lost then seemingly out of no where you were saved from your fate in a way you had a hard time believing? Well I'd define those events as improbable. If events like that happened to you over and over would that have any impact on your atheism? Or would you just believe you are just the luckiest person in the world and thats that? I don't know how you could, any rational person would come to the conclusion that no one is that lucky. And if it isn't luck what is it? What makes sense? Can we use the word miracle yet or no?
 
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jacknife

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Have you ever had times in your life where all hope seemed to be lost then seemingly out of no where you were saved from your fate in a way you had a hard time believing? Well I'd define those events as improbable. If events like that happened to you over and over would that have any impact on your atheism? Or would you just believe you are just the luckiest person in the world and thats that? I don't know how you could, any rational person would come to the conclusion that no one is that lucky. And if it isn't luck what is it? What makes sense? Can we use the word miracle yet or no?
Then no, id feel as if attaching spiritual beings to near misses as bringing a sort of humanized bias to the whole situation. Id prefer something more concreate.
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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Then no, id feel as if attaching spiritual beings to near misses as bringing a sort of humanized bias to the whole situation. Id prefer something more concreate.

How would you rationalize such an experience then?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Atheists fail to understand that believers don't become believers because they go to church a lot or listen to very charismatic preachers. They believe because of experiencing highly improbable events that common sense insists can not be attributed to blind coincidence alone.
The vast bulk of believers/people who identify as [insert specific religious affiliation here] are not religious because of numinous experiences. They belong to that specific group because they were born in a place where that world view happens to be dominant, and grew up in a culture that was saturated with it.

True, there are also converts (in all possible directions), and they usually don't just commit to vast ideological switches just because they read a Chick Tract, attended a Dianetics session, or got the Qur'an quoted at them by a street/doorstep proselytiser: such shifts are often triggered by specific events and the attending psychological needs. Losing a loved one, a divorce, a close scrape with death, etc.
Cat Stevens, for example, famously became a devout muslim after nearly drowning in the ocean.

I'm pretty sure there's also the kind of events you describe, but they do not uniformly lead in the direction of a specific religious, or even a religion at all.
Personally, my extraordinary experience was what ultimately caused me to turn my back on Christianity (and all other religions). The deity portrayed therein was simply too small for the vastness of benevolence I had come to witness first-hand. I find glimpses of such experience in virtually every sacred tradition, but it's always buried under a thick layer of myth and theology.
 
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ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

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The vast bulk of believers/people who identify as [insert specific religious affiliation here] are not religious because of numinous experiences. They belong to that specific group because they were born in a place where that world view happens to be dominant, and grew up in a culture that was saturated with it.

I'm not talking religion here though. I'm talking about belief. There is a difference. Religion is cultural. Someone can identify with a religion but not believe anything in it. Being raised in a religion doesn't mean you actually believe in anything. I'm saying people who do believe in God believe so because they have experiences that can not be explained in any other way that makes sense. To me there are two seperate issues when dealing with God. There is whether or not someone believes God exists, and believing in the christian God or other gods that appeal to them. I'm addressing the people who don't believe God exists not a matter of which one is the correct one which is a completely different discussion.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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My point is: even atheists may have this kind of experience.
The notorious nihilist philosopher Nietzsche of "God is dead"-fame, for example, has written diary passages that clearly indicate he went through typical mystic experiences (which you'll find in all religious traditions).

The difference is how we process it, and that's where upbringing and cultural factors come back into play.
A person going through an extraordinary event in an Islamic culture will most likely attribute it to the Islamic deity. A person experiencing the same in a predominantly Christian culture will perceive it in Christian terms and so on and so forth.

There was a time when I earnestly and eagerly tried to force my own experiences into the Christian template (the way Teresa of Avila or Meister Eckhart did), but it simply didn't work. The pattern was just too small to contain it.
 
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mindlight

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One thing I have found in dealing with atheists is that they know very little about anything. They are so wrapped up in their little world of me, myself and I they cannot see the wood for the trees and for that reason they are up the creek without a paddle.

I could not generalise like that the atheists I know are a mix of ignoramuses and smart alecs who think they know it all. Some are people who genuinely do not care to ask the right questions in the first place while others have come to sad and hopeless conclusions after much effort. There is a massive difference between a Marxist, Nietzschean and a modern Liberal - Evolutionist.

Take them out of their comfort zone and they are flailing around to try and cover their tracks. I don't know how many atheists I have asked the question "How did life begin" and everyone has admitted they did not know because evolution is not concerned with a question like that.

We are gifted with answers to the major questions. Having accepted Christ it is an easy thing to accept the package of beliefs which he supports. Some Christians have thought this through and others not. An atheist is someone who has rejected something not necessarily found a new centre. Many are broken and incoherent. The predominant atheist view today would be a naturalistic liberalism focused on "scientific evolution" and on "choice". But in practice many atheists are not that consistent.

You bet it isn't because as soon as God enters the equation it ceases to be a scientific or evolutionary question, it becomes a philosophical one and they are behind the eight ball on that one.

Unless they can discuss everything on the basis of 2 + 2 = 4, they are floundering ducks.

Of course, they are going to tell you that life is all about 2 + 2 = 4 so I am going to ask them what formula I have to put into practice to be able to love my wife?

Perhaps kiss + kiss = lips.

The smart alec atheists I know will have answers like Big Bang, Abiogenesis and then macro evolution to the basic origins question. But there is no scientific proof for these theories, there is only acceptance on the basis of explanatory power. We believe that the Creation event was a supernatural one and as such it has no analogy and cannot be explained by what we can observe and especially since the world has been broken by flood and by fall. Believing in a God of miracles changes everything. But even within the modern atheists terms of reference there is good reason to doubt their worldview is anything more than a faith position.
 
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mindlight

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A lot of us get that, the whole pointing out that personal evidence that was enough to convince one person isn't enough to convenience us is kind of our sthick.

There is no evidence for chemical evolution yet that is accepted by most atheists over the idea of special creation. You may exaggerate the role of evidence in an atheists rejection of God.
 
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