Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

Phoebe Ann said:

FYI, eternal life was repeatedly referred to as a blessing and a gift that had to be earned when I was a Mormon for all those years. Every gift of God is a blessing. You can act like an apostate or you can pretend that the Mormonism that was taught in the past was wrong. If there are requirements that must be met in order to win the prize, the prize is not a gift but a wage that was earned. The Doctrine and Covenants tells LDS that all commandments must be obeyed. Have your commandments become suggestions?

According to Mormonism, the Lord is bound when you obey. If He doesn't give the reward, he's in deep trouble. He MUST to obey the law.

D&C 82
9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

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He is the way said:

The Book of Mormon and the D&C both state that eternal life is a gift. The Bible states that a person must be worthy to be able to get the gift of eternal life:
(New Testament | Romans 6:20 - 23)

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(New Testament | Matthew 25:45 - 46)

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(New Testament | John 6:53 - 55)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
(New Testament | John 12:25)

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
(New Testament | Romans 2:5 - 10)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
(New Testament | 1 Timothy 6:18 - 19)

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
(New Testament | Titus 3:7 - 8)

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
(New Testament | 1 John 3:15 - 17)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
(New Testament | 1 John 5:2 - 13)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

All Biblical!

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withwonderingawe said:

Okay I don't think I've heard it expressed that way before.

Salvation from sin is a gift, we rely solely on the merits of Christ and his atoning sacrifice.

Eternal Life or life with God the Father is a blessing we are rewarded with for obeying his commandments.

We really aren't that far different than most here because they acknowledge that in heaven there are many mansions and we are rewarded for our works at some point. However they feel they can not fall from grace once saved and we do.

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He is the way said:

Some Christians believe that we say that we can earn eternal life. However it is clear that good works can not earn anyone eternal life:
(New Testament | Ephesians 2:8 - 9)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Indeed we do believe that eternal life is a gift from God and that we can receive eternal life from God if we are worthy. It is becoming worthy for the gift of eternal life that requires the works.

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withwonderingawe said:

Book of Mormon says "... And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits." Alma 14

But exaltation and eternal life is different,

Rom 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

However I don't know that using the word "earned" really express the concept because we are not chalking up brownie points but learning to love as he loved and becoming one with him.

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He is the way said:

The Book of Mormon and the D&C both state that eternal life is a gift. The Bible states that a person must be worthy to be able to get the gift of eternal life:
(New Testament | Romans 6:20 - 23)

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(New Testament | Matthew 25:45 - 46)

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(New Testament | John 6:53 - 55)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
(New Testament | John 12:25)

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
(New Testament | Romans 2:5 - 10)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
(New Testament | 1 Timothy 6:18 - 19)

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
(New Testament | Titus 3:7 - 8)

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
(New Testament | 1 John 3:15 - 17)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
(New Testament | 1 John 5:2 - 13)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

All Biblical!

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He is the way said:

Many Christians believe they are saved, however no one will be saved unless they endure to the end:

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Phoebe Ann said:

There is no such person that God saves and doesn't keep. God always finishes what He starts!

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
(We didn't begin the good work; God did!)


Luke 22
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(God planned it and brought His plan to fruition.)

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus did NOT lie! All His sheep will be held firmly in His hand.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

All Christians will endure to the end; God doesn't make temporary Christians.

Nahum 1
7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

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He is the way said:

So you said: All Christians will endure to the end; God doesn't make temporary Christians.

Then we read:
(Old Testament | Proverbs 26:10 - 12)

10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
(Old Testament | Proverbs 27:1)

1 BOAST not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.
(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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Phoebe Ann said:

Yes, a hypocrite is like a dog returning to his vomit. They were taught the truth, but they went out from us because they were not sheep.

The sheep never boast about themselves; they glorify the God Who saved them. He didn't save us because we were the most righteous people He knew.

Luke 18
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

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He is the way said:

So who is us? Is it Evangelists, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutherans, Holy Rollers or what? Why do you believe you are saved long before the judgement? Did you tell Jesus to give you the gift of everlasting life?

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He is the way said:

Some Christians believe that we say that we can earn eternal life. However it is clear that good works can not earn anyone eternal life:
(New Testament | Ephesians 2:8 - 9)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Indeed we do believe that eternal life is a gift from God and that we can receive eternal life from God if we are worthy. It is becoming worthy for the gift of eternal life that requires the works.

Click to expand...

Phoebe Ann said:

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25 (versus Ephesians 2:8-9)
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206-207

Jesus makes people worthy; we can't. He came to save sinners and give us His righteousness.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

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I believe in Jesus Christ

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He is the way said:

The Book of Mormon and the D&C both state that eternal life is a gift. The Bible states that a person must be worthy to be able to get the gift of eternal life:
(New Testament | Romans 6:20 - 23)

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(New Testament | Matthew 25:45 - 46)

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(New Testament | John 6:53 - 55)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
(New Testament | John 12:25)

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
(New Testament | Romans 2:5 - 10)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
(New Testament | 1 Timothy 6:18 - 19)

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
(New Testament | Titus 3:7 - 8)

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
(New Testament | 1 John 3:15 - 17)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
(New Testament | 1 John 5:2 - 13)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

All Biblical!

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He is the way said:

I believe in Jesus Christ:
(New Testament | James 1:22 - 27)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

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withwonderingawe said:

Book of Mormon says "... And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits." Alma 14

But exaltation and eternal life is different,

Click to expand...

withwonderingawe said:

Rom 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Click to expand...

withwonderingawe said:

However I don't know that using the word "earned" really express the concept because we are not chalking up brownie points but learning to love as he loved and becoming one with him.

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drstevej said:

Do you worship Him as God?

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Phoebe Ann said:

The "Jesus Christ" of Mormonism:

“Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and means whereby all men may be saved.”
Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol. 4, p. 434

“I testify that with unimaginable suffering and agony at an incalculable price, the Savior earned His right to be our Redeemer, our Intermediary, our Final Judge.”
Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2006, 42

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