SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

EmSw said:

I'll complete this for you. "IF YOU ARE A LIAR".

Now who does John say is a liar?

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

If you do not keep His commandments, and if you hate your brother, you are a liar. So many grace people are so opposed to keeping His commandments to enter life, I wonder how they think they are not liars.

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Your trying to convince me and the whole thread that God will send His Children( your brothers and sisters) to the eternal lake of fire forever and ever.......the epitome of hate.

I would be considered a liar. He was talking about me.

I have grieved and quenched His Spirit and have not followed His commands.

1 John 1:9~~~ Carry on.

EmSw said:

I'll complete this for you. "IF YOU ARE A LIAR".

Now who does John say is a liar?

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

If you do not keep His commandments, and if you hate your brother, you are a liar. So many grace people are so opposed to keeping His commandments to enter life, I wonder how they think they are not liars.

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And still.......A merciful God would tell all His Children in PLAIN LANGUAGE.......Alice 2:4~~"You WILL lose your salvation and be sent to the eternal lake of fire forever if___________."

Gr8Grace said:

Your trying to convince me and the whole thread that God will send His Children( your brothers and sisters) to the eternal lake of fire forever and ever.......the epitome of hate.

I would be considered a liar. He was talking about me.

I have grieved and quenched His Spirit and have not followed His commands.

1 John 1:9~~~ Carry on.

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No sir! I'm talking about those who say they are His children, but in reality are continual liars, that is, they say they know Him, but do not keep His commandments.

@EmSw wrote:

Genesis 15:6 has nothing to do with how OT saints received life. It has nothing to do with salvation.

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Really? Abraham wasn't an old testament saint? Having righteousness credited to him didn't mean life and salvation?

To fill in the blank, simply read Matthew 13:41-42 or Matthew 7:23.

Committing iniquity; more specifically, being a worker of iniquity: will put someone in the furnace of fire, Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me."

Now I am of the opinion that such a person was never of God's elect, was never truly saved according to God's perspective of looking down at us from outside of time.

Someone CAN believe for a while and then fall away. Believing means they are saved for all practical purposes from the perspective of time. When they fall away from faith, they are no longer saved, because they don't have faith anymore; by which we are saved. So from the perspective of eternity they were never saved.

Unless you can give a verse or passage that will tell us that people can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ! I will be waiting for that one.

We are saved by grace through faith. We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 5:1-2.

Therefore, if one departs from faith they are no longer recipients of grace, and are therefore no longer saved. For we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

But if someone is of God's elect, saved from eternity's perspective, they will never depart from faith, they are of the sort that Jesus designated as the good soil, they bear fruit with perseverance.

It is Perseverance Of The Saints, not Once Saved Always Saved.

The term "elect" is primary to the discussion.

If someone is truly saved from the perspective of eternity, they cannot lose their salvation. God knows, and if you are one of these, His Spirit bears witness with your spirit that you are a child of God, you don't need verses on eternal security to tell you that you continue to be saved.

Gr8Grace said:

And still.......A merciful God would tell all His Children in PLAIN LANGUAGE.......Alice 2:4~~"You WILL lose your salvation and be sent to the eternal lake of fire forever if___________."

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There are verses like this all over the Bible, and we have discussed some of them here in this thread. I believe at one point someone realized that the passages mentioned truly defeated the Once Saved Always Saved mentality, and the defense given was, "you really should take our verses over yours." not in those exact words. But the verses that speak of Once Saved Always Saved that are given in this thread only apply to Jesus' sheep (I am specifically speaking of John 10:28), and Jesus knows His sheep, but never knew the workers of iniquity. Therefore workers of iniquity are not His sheep and John 10:28 doesn't apply to them.

@Gr8Grace, I don't think you have been paying attention to all of the posts in this thread, because your arguments have already been dealt with, and it has come to the point where we are going in circles.

EmSw said:

No, I am not a Jew; I am native American, Norwegian, and German.

How do you say the Jews of the OT were saved? Please provide OT passages which state how they received life. FG2 can't provide even one OT passage which says how OT saints received life. But, he does say OT and NT saints are saved the same way. So, if we find out how OT saints received life, we will know how NT saints receive life.

Why were your sins forgiven any differently than those before the cross? If yours sins were forgiven at the cross, how is it you were dead in sins before your conversion?

What are the consequences for your sins? When will you pay the consequences for your sins? Romans say the wages of sin is death, but you say this doesn't apply to you for as you say, 'spiritual death for me is GONE' for you. Are you say some can sin and be treated differently than others who sin?

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@EmSw, have you ever sinned? The wages of sin is death.

deleted. reason: repeat of post #2868.

I will be waiting for scripture that tells us that we can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ, and/or that someone who has faith in Jesus Christ isn't saved.

Because if you can't produce such scripture, the parable of the sower proves that someone can be saved for a while from time's perspective, and later not be saved.

Again, from eternity's perspective they were never saved; they were seed planted in shallow ground.

Gr8Grace said:

So there is loss of salvation in your theology. Reread your statement above.

There is loss of salvation in your theology.

THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT PLAINLY TEACH IT. They reject it. John 10:28. And do a little Greek study, Eph 2:8 refutes loss of salvation to such a degree that one would have to knowingly teach against His word with the idea of loss of salvation.

There is loss of fellowship,loss of blessings,loss of rewards.....But NEVER loss of salvation. LISTEN, If we could lose salvation we would have a PLETHORA of verses that would be as clear as John 10:28 about our eternal security.

God would not leave a MOST important doctrine for us to "read between the lines." We would have multiple verses that clearly and distinctly say, " You will lose your salvation and be in the eternal lake of fire forever if you__________________." We would not be debating it. God would not leave us in a state of confusion on this MOST IMPORTANT issue. He would PLAINLY tell us.

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There is no loss of salvation TO THE ELECT in my theology. And there is a plethora of verses, all of them rejected by faulty interpretation from the OSAS crowd. John 10:28 is for Jesus' sheep, not workers of iniquity.

@EmSw, an OT passage that speaks of the forgiveness of God is Psalms 32:1-2, later quoted by Paul in Romans 4:1-8. Specifically Romans 4:7-8. But I especially like verse 6 in that passage.

EmSw said:

Dead works are from those who appear to be sheep, but have evil in their hearts. Some do works for honor, gain, and looking good in the sight of men. God looks upon the heart; He knows if the heart is clean or evil.

You make a statement above and I will ask you - how is a man made righteous by the obedience of Jesus? Is a man still made righteous by the obedience of Jesus, if the man himself remains disobedient? What if this man loves the evil in his heart and has no desire to remove it? Is he then still righteous by the obedience of Jesus?

Righteousness is the opposite of wickedness. We see this in these passages -

Genesis 18:23
And Abraham drew near, and said, wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Deuteronomy 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Job 10:15
If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;

Psalm 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 37:17
For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the Lord upholdeth the righteous.

Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just (righteous)...

What do you say about this passage?

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Do you believe man has his own righteousness?

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Matthew 5:20 is interpreted by Galatians 2:21. The only righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, who were sticklers for the righteousness which is in the law, is an inward righteousness produced by faith.

A man is forgiven through the obedience of Jesus in going to the Cross. If anyone is truly forgiven, they cannot help but fall in love with Jesus (see Luke 7:36-50). And if anyone is truly in love with Jesus, they will walk in righteousness. Love is the fulfilling of the law, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart through the Holy Ghost for the one who believes in Jesus. Romans 5:1-5. If anyone walks according to the love of the Holy Ghost and not the selfishness that is from the flesh, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in him. Romans 8:4.

Now we must receive the forgiveness of Christ not on the basis of our works but on the basis of the merits of His shed blood on the Cross. Otherwise the sins we have committed in the past will condemn us on the day of judgment. Turning over a new leaf will not obtain for us the forgiveness of God, only faith in the blood of Jesus Christ can do that.

Also, DEAD WORKS are simply works done apart from faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us; they are works separated (and therefore dead) from a relationship with God.

justbyfaith said:

@EmSw wrote:

Really? Abraham wasn't an old testament saint? Having righteousness credited to him didn't mean life and salvation?

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James 2
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It is by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Perhaps you should look up justified to see what it means. Here, I'll help you. From Strong's -

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
   
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
   
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
   

justbyfaith said:

Unless you can give a verse or passage that will tell us that people can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ! I will be waiting for that one.

We are saved by grace through faith. We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 5:1-2.

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Wait no longer. Here is an OT passage which FG2 has failed to give in response to my question to him.

Ezekiel 18
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

You say you want a NT passage? Okay.

Luke 19
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

justbyfaith said:

But if someone is of God's elect, saved from eternity's perspective, they will never depart from faith, they are of the sort that Jesus designated as the good soil, they bear fruit with perseverance.

It is Perseverance Of The Saints, not Once Saved Always Saved.

The term "elect" is primary to the discussion.

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So, if you happen to depart from the faith, you are not saved now, right?

If you believe your scenario, you have no idea if you are saved now. Salvation would be not departing from the faith.

justbyfaith said:

If someone is truly saved from the perspective of eternity, they cannot lose their salvation. God knows, and if you are one of these, His Spirit bears witness with your spirit that you are a child of God, you don't need verses on eternal security to tell you that you continue to be saved.

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No one knows if they are saved by your theory. They will always be waiting to see if they depart from the faith.

justbyfaith said:

@EmSw, have you ever sinned? The wages of sin is death.

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Sure, I've sinned. The wages of repentance is forgiveness of sins.

justbyfaith said:

I will be waiting for scripture that tells us that we can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ, and/or that someone who has faith in Jesus Christ isn't saved.

Because if you can't produce such scripture, the parable of the sower proves that someone can be saved for a while from time's perspective, and later not be saved.

Again, from eternity's perspective they were never saved; they were seed planted in shallow ground.

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I did produce such scripture. How do you know you weren't planted in shallow ground?

justbyfaith said:

There is no loss of salvation TO THE ELECT in my theology. And there is a plethora of verses, all of them rejected by faulty interpretation from the OSAS crowd. John 10:28 is for Jesus' sheep, not workers of iniquity.

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How do you know you are one of His sheep? You may have been planted in shallow ground.