If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

drjean said:

Mankind does have free will.... choice .... even Adam and Eve before there was sin, before there was law... there was good and evil. They chose evil.

"Everything" is not predestined in man's sense of the term, imo. I have used the analogy of the 10 year old boy going outside in the rain. The mother KNOWS he is going to jump into mud puddles. Does her knowing CAUSE him to do this? No. God's knowing likewise doesn't cause us to follow His plan, however, the BIG PICTURE (human terms) always comes out as God plans.

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Apologetic_Warrior said:

Even from a non-Trinitarian perspective, if you hold the Father as omniscient, you still have to grapple with Scriptures such as:

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Do you see how even denying the omniscience of the Son and the Spirit, cannot provide an escape door from the argument for God choosing and electing and as it relates to the attributes of omniscience and immutability with the Scripture above in mind?

John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”

With the Scripture above, to deny the eternal Sonship of Christ, one must go through theological hoops in defining in what way, the Son and Father are one. Same goes for John 1:1; 14 and other passages.

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Neogaia777 said:

John 6:65 just means that the Father is omniscient...

And (John 10:30) to say you are "one" with anything can mean many, many different things... One in what way...? In every way...?

Cause I could say were all "one", just in the fact that were all connected, and that is and would be true and would not be a lie, but, were not all the same, but we differ in ways...

"One" or being one, does not have to be, or mean, the "exact same in every way"...

In my signature, it says "all is one, but only one (God the Father) (and now the God the Son) is all...

I know many of you might be thinking "blasphemy" or something, but if you check the scriptures carefully, you'll see even the apostles in the NT knew this and it is true...

The Son is our God and has always been our God, and will always be our God though, that much is also very true... And He is one with the Father, and always has been and always will be, just maybe was not always the exact same, but is now...

You don't have to believe me, but, just check the scriptures with this in mind... And see for yourself if it's true or not...

God Bless!

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Halbhh said:

Another wording is: Did God make us (by His design) totally predictable? Many just assume this, but the Bible suggests otherwise:

"5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

So, if this wording is true, as I believe, then it says a fact -- God regretted that He had made humans.

7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

Remember how He made the Earth and all in it? --

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

So, God made all good, yet later regretted He had made us, and considered to destroy most or all creatures.

This means that by His design God must have chosen to create us to be unpredictable, and His choices are the best possible choices.

Ergo, for anything good to exist, evil must be possible, and all of it is somewhat unpredictable, even though we could imagine both nature and we are predictable in part, in aspects, in certain ways -- like the weather -- just not predictable in full "absolute everything".

Ergo it's simply not the case that all is predetermined.

What is predetermined is that God will accomplish His plans, because He has said He will.

Our redemption into Eternal Life.

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Neogaia777 said:

"Are you (justifiably) angry with me (or accuse me of blasphemy, or say I have a demon, or "whatever" the accusation might be) because I tell you the truth...?"

Are you...?

Do I know "everything"...? certainly not, I'm not God...

But this much I do know...

God Bless!

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Neogaia777 said:

Do I have to handle and deal with demons in others...? yes, I do sometimes... and I do see it and can't help it (seeing it in others)... yes, I do, a lot of the time... And does it scare the heck out of me sometimes... yes, always... But, I do not "have a demon"...

God Bless!

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Neogaia777 said:

Did God (the Father now) predestine or somehow "set up" even God the Son, our God, and all of us as well maybe...? And if so, what does that mean...?

God Bless!

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Radagast said:

Sigh.

Christians believe in the Trinity. God the Son is 100% God. God the Son is 100% omniscient.

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