Husbands Authority

Lucky9 said:

Yes, I do have a job, full time, outside of the home. We both work.

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The good thing is that you have a job, so had Paul, much bettttter than depending on, strong enough to face any threat.

Micah888 said:

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3).

If we rearrange this for a clearer understanding:
1. the head of Christ is God.
2. the head of every man is Christ
3. the head of the woman is the man

As we can see, God is at the top, and authority flows downwards.

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Lets continue in 1 Corinthians 11:

4) Every man one-keeps-on(customary)-praying(motivated to do so), or one-keeps-on(customary)-(standing)in-front-telling(prophesying) (praying or prophesying refers to public speaking) down head(ashamedly), one-keeps-on-holding(i.e. holding his head down) he-down-shames(disgraces) thee head of-him-same(in verse 3, the man's head is thee Anointed-One(christos).

5) Yet, every woman one-keeps-on(customary)-praying(motivated to do so), or one-keeps-on(customary)-(standing)in-front-telling(prophesying) (praying or prophesying refers to public speaking) un-down-covered(not properly veiled, hiding) to-thee (her own)head she-down-shames(disgraces) thee head of-her-same(in verse 3, the woman's head is thee husband(christos); for one it-keeps-on-being and-also thee same to-thee, one(she)-has-been-shaving(motivated to do so).

Without going into a lengthy discussion about Paul's choice of words, word play and his sense of humor here, Paul is telling us that men should public speak boldly and women should speak with a mouth filter.

By not understanding these things, we are taught that men shouldn't wear long hair and women should wear hats in church--ridiculous!

Micah888 said:

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3).

If we rearrange this for a clearer understanding:
1. the head of Christ is God.
2. the head of every man is Christ
3. the head of the woman is the man

As we can see, God is at the top, and authority flows downwards.

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Does The Father "strong arm" Jesus into obedience? No.

Does Jesus "strong arm" men into obedience? Again, no.

Should a husband "strong arm" his wife into subjection? For a third time, NO.

Voluntary submission is always from the bottom up, not the top down.

Dave, it seems to me you are saying that submission is never done from an outside source; rather, it is the person's own decision to place another's needs above their own? (That is how it should be, and the finer nuance of the term "submit" which does not fully capture the nuance of the original language)

ValleyGal said:

Dave, it seems to me you are saying that submission is never done from an outside source; rather, it is the person's own decision to place another's needs above their own?

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Yes. Exactly.

Dave-W said:

Does The Father "strong arm" Jesus into obedience? No.

Does Jesus "strong arm" men into obedience? Again, no.

Should a husband "strong arm" his wife into subjection? For a third time, NO.

Voluntary submission is always from the bottom up, not the top down.

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What you had said is Biblical authority is never "over." It always comes from the bottom up.

What you are now saying is Voluntary submission is always from the bottom up, not the top down.

Both cannot be correct. And I agree with your last statement.

But the Bible does not mention "strong arming" in this regard. All authority comes from ABOVE. That is very clear from Scripture. It is the Father who has handed all power and all authority to Christ the Son since His finished work was completed and He rose again. And it is Christ who has DELEGATED His authority to Christian men in the home and in the local church. Legitimate authority should be respected. Only abuse of authority would be *strong arming*.

Micah888 said:

Both cannot be correct. And I agree with your last statement.

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Of course both are correct. Biblically, without submission there is no authority.

Lucky9 said:

Just to clarify, my husband is demanding I go to this one ceremony wherein our daughter is taking her first communion. I would be lying if I said part of my decision not to go, is because I am very uncomfortable going to his church and feel very creeped out just being there. But this decision is based on the fact that I do not hold the same belief as he/his church does, on what the communion means, so this whole communion "ceremony" is not something I agree with and feel if I go, it would be going against what I believe. I also feel if I don't draw the line at some point and hold my ground with my convictions and what I'm willing/not willing to participate in, in relation to his church, he'll continue to push every time there's a special ceremony for any reason. Now that two of our children are involved in his church, I'm quite sure more of these events will come up.

He decided a year ago, November, that our kids would all attend his church only for a year to learn about Catholicism. And then they'd have a choice on where they wanted to go. I did not agree to that, but had no choice, because he "put his foot down as leader of the house", so I basically had no say in the matter. Our oldest (16) pushed back the most and after a year, my husband finally let him stop going to his church. But our two youngest (14 and 10) decided they wanted to continue going. I told my husband then, that this was a choice he was making, they were making, and not to expect me to be going with them or be involved in that choice, because there's a reason I'm not a Catholic. I almost feel like my husband is using our kids to try to convert me. On one hand, he'll tell me he knows not to push to convert someone, etc etc. Then on the other, he'll do these manipulative things, and say things, that contradict that, and to try and get me to go to his church.

When this all started, he didn't discuss anything with me about becoming a Catholic. We talked a lot before we got married, and although he was raised Catholic when he was younger, his whole family stopped practicing when he was about 10, so he never really "lived" the Catholic faith, because he never really practiced it. It wasn't until he was 40 years old, that his parents found an SSPX church, when he finally decided on his own, that that was what he wanted to be now. We didn't discuss it. He didn't even approach me about it at all, he just made that decision all on his own. And I'm fine with that, but I did tell him, there's a difference in our beliefs and I was not, and am not, on board with his beliefs.

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Hi Lucky, I completely understand and am sorry you are facing this difficulty within your own family

Lucky9 said:

If my beliefs ever come up, he seems to take personal offense. One time it was about Mary and how I don't believe she was sinless, or that she ascended into Heaven, and you would have thought I just peed on his own mother. He seems incapable of having different beliefs, and agreeing to disagree. He can't ever discuss anything, unless I'm in full agreement with him, or he gets angry, to the point of literally having a dramatic argument. My beliefs I have had my entire life. I was raised non-denom and we practiced our faith continually. My family even had a singing group, when I was younger, and we would travel to different churches and sing. The only time I've not really practiced was in my early 20's, but I got back into it before I met him and have been practicing ever since. We practiced our faith together, until he decided to become Catholic. And now it feels like it's his way or continual bullying until I submit.

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I've known a number of coverts to Rome who went that way to get away from the somewhat varied beliefs (or emphases) that certain Protestant denominations have at times. So when you say that Mary might not be sinless, and/or that she died and was buried like almost everyone else in history has been (save Enoch and Elijah), you make these coverts face one of the very things they left the Protestant faith to try to avoid (BTW, I'm just offering a possible explanation here, not excusing your husband's poor behavior in the least).

Lucky9 said:

At this point, the more I research, study the Bible, and learn about the Catholic faith/beliefs and what the Bible actually says, the more "Protestant" I become to it.

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The Bible can be a dangerous book in certain cases I used to meet once a week for breakfast with a close friend of mine who is a RC convert (he was a barely practicing Methodist prior to converting to his wife's RC faith) for prayer, and to support/be accountable to each other as husbands, fathers and Christians. Our deal was that we would never try to covert each other, and we never did.

We worked through certain books together as a basis for our discussions, some Catholic and some Protestant, but one day my friend thought we should go through a book of the Bible instead, and he chose Romans (which was fine with me). We decided to read Chapter 1, but when we met the following week, my friend had already read through the entire Book several times instead. I got there first and as he approached the table I was seated at, something seemed wrong. Then he sat down (and looked down for quite awhile) silently until I asked him if anything was wrong. He raised his head, told me that he'd read through the entire book of Romans, and then he asked me this rhetorical question in great frustration, "is there ANYTHING that my church teaches that is true?" I said nothing in reply since that was our deal, but I did tell him to go talk to his priest about it. He is still RC, but admits that he would not be if the Bible was the only thing he had to base his RC faith on.

Lucky9 said:

But like I said, I don't let on how I truly feel. I can't unless I want a fight, which I never do. And then crap like this happens, and he misinterprets scripture to fit his needs, and then metaphorically speaking, bangs me over the head with the Bible, and here we are. And I don't even think he ever reads the Bible, because the only book I see him reading is his Catholic Missile. So I don't even think he KNOWS the Bible.

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Sadly, it's not just Catholics who misinterpret parts of the Bible, especially when they think a bad exegesis might end up being beneficial to them in some way Again though, I don't mean this as any kind of justification for what your husband is doing to you (or to the Bible).

Lucky9 said:

Sorry, I'm just venting now....but that's where I'm at.

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No worries, you have a lot of frustrating stuff on your plate right now, so vent away

Lucky9 said:

I honestly don't know what my pastor is going to say that's going to help this, when my husband won't see anyone unless they are a Priest and there are no Priests available for counseling right now, at his Perish. And he most certainly won't listen to MY pastor, because.......we're "heretic".

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I would keep in close contact with your pastor for his counsel, support and prayer through all of this. And quite frankly, sometimes it's really nice to have someone to vent to face to face, especially someone you know who both cares for you and is interested your best. And you can see him or talk to him privately (IOW, w/o your husband), which it sounds like you're going to need to do anyway.

There is also your church family who is there for you, who suffers whenever you suffer .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 12:26. Sometimes we are the ones who are ministered to by the body of Christ, and sometimes we are the ones who are doing the ministering to others who are in need instead. At any rate, this is how the Lord intended church to work (to support each other while we walk in this world as aliens and strangers .. e.g. cf 1 Peter 2:11; Galatians 6:10; Hebrews 10:24-25).

Yours and His,
David

Dave-W said:

Of course both are correct. Biblically, without submission there is no authority.

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How can that be biblical? God and Christ would still have total and complete authority, even if every creature was a rebel. Indeed, "the whole world lieth in wickedness", but God remains supremely sovereign on His throne.

The line of authority does not move. It is up to us to decide whether we want to submit. But man has no authority over his wife, the same as a wife has no authority over her husband - 1 Cor. 7:4. Spiritually, Jesus has given his authority to his bride, the church - which is made up of male and female where we are all told to submit to one another out of reverence for Jesus - Eph. 5:21. Submitting to Jesus means submitting to one another. Iow, we are on the same playing field; no man has authority "over"... in fact, he needs to yield to her and place himself under her, if he is going to love her like Jesus loves the church as per Eph. 5:25; Philippians 2:3-8.

Acts 4:6 the high priest had authority and commanded Peter and John to stop preaching in Christ name. Peter replied, who should we obey man or God. Man's authority never rises above God.

Stand firm in your faith, ask your church to pray. Hopefully you can be a light to him.

In Christ
Daniel

Lucky9 said:

Meanwhile, despite how I have kept my mouth shut about the things I disagree with, or I do not like, about his faith, he does not show me the same respect. He is constantly making comments, snide remarks, often attacks me for stances I take, based on my faith, calls me a heretic, and without actually saying it outright, has told me I'm not saved unless I'm a Catholic.

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This (the text quoted above) is where he is seriously wrong and doing you wrong. My recommendation is to do serious study of Church history and historical theology, which involves tracing doctrines throughout the course of historical Christianity. Not acknowledging the commonality between Catholics and Protestants and claiming "one true Church" applying it to a denomination is flat out false whether the claim comes from a Catholic, EO, Anabaptist, or Protestant. Sounds like "cage stage" Catholocism and nowhere near the evangelical nature of a friendship like the friendship between J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.

Lucky9 said:

And now my daughter is going for her first communion and he wants me to attend the ceremony/church service. I refuse. I went to her baptism and I have gone to his church for several other ceremonies for him, but I just can't go back there. His church really makes me uncomfortable and I am very against going again. As well, I have a different belief the whole communion meaning, and I don't agree with the Catholic take on it, therefore I do not want to be a part of something I don't really agree with. I agree in Communion, but as it relates to remembrance of what Christ has done, not as a transubstantiation issue.

And my husband doesn't get that. He demanded I go to his church, and I refused, so now he's telling me what a terrible person, wife, Christian I am, because I won't obey him. And that I'm ignoring the Bible and what it says to do, and that he has authority to tell me what to do. I wholeheartedly disagree this is what Eph 5 means., in relation to what he's asking for. Am I wrong? Or is he?

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Try to explain to him that it is a matter of conscience, that you cannot go along with it in good conscience, and his behavior towards you does not help the matter in the least. Treating a loved on like an enemy is falling way short of the two great commandments, and 1 Cor 13. He continually ignores the Bible shrouding and hedging with sola ecclesia. He is wrong but I recommend figuring out how to get through and communicate in ways to make things work out. As an aside, at least two (if not more) of the Reformers were of the Augustianian order, and leaned heavily on ECF St. Augustine even after their departure from RCC. Protestants also affirm a number of early Catholics creeds. As for schisms, you could remind him that it's not exactly a badge of honor to identify with the Church from which all schisms flow, which is to say the common charge of thousands of "Protestant" denominations, is a bait and switch of the term "Christian" for "Protestant" so as to distance oneself from from division but it has more in common with slight of hand, because Protestantism, is actually Reformed Catholocism, a purifying of Christianity. So getting back to your question, obey where he is biblical, and appeal to liberty and not going against conscience. May the Lord bless you and give you whatever it takes to endure and strive to work things out, and may the Lord silence and humble your husband in these matters.

Micah888 said:

How can that be biblical? God and Christ would still have total and complete authority, even if every creature was a rebel. Indeed, "the whole world lieth in wickedness", but God remains supremely sovereign on His throne.

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I think in this case when he says "biblical" he means Christians voluntarily submit.

The actual biblical usage shows that the word can mean more than just voluntary submission such as the demons submitting to Jesus, the waves submitting to Jesus, etc. In this case Paul is encouraging wives, slaves, children to submit willingly within their context.

And there is warning to those exercising authority to use it properly, (husbands love your wives, fathers, do not exasperate your children, masters not to threaten, etc.)

Lucky9 said:

I am curious about what others think about what the husbands Biblical "authority" over his wife is?

Based on whatever faith you are, I am curious how Ephesians 5:21-33 is interpreted to mean, to you.

The reason I ask this, is because I believe (and feel) that my husband is misinterpreting the scriptures and is possibly abusing this "authority". See, I am a non-denominational Christian and he is a Catholic. I do all that I can to respect his faith. I tend to avoid any arguments or really any discussions regarding the differences in our beliefs, because it always ends up in an argument that he won't let go. When we met we were both ND, but then he chose to go the Catholic route about 6 years ago and now has 2 of our kids going that route too. That's the decision they made, and I'm ok with that, but I don't agree with it. I just choose to be respectful and leave them to their dads instruction. Although I will still do a bible study/daily devotion with them on my end.

Meanwhile, despite how I have kept my mouth shut about the things I disagree with, or I do not like, about his faith, he does not show me the same respect. He is constantly making comments, snide remarks, often attacks me for stances I take, based on my faith, calls me a heretic, and without actually saying it outright, has told me I'm not saved unless I'm a Catholic.

And now my daughter is going for her first communion and he wants me to attend the ceremony/church service. I refuse. I went to her baptism and I have gone to his church for several other ceremonies for him, but I just can't go back there. His church really makes me uncomfortable and I am very against going again. As well, I have a different belief the whole communion meaning, and I don't agree with the Catholic take on it, therefore I do not want to be a part of something I don't really agree with. I agree in Communion, but as it relates to remembrance of what Christ has done, not as a transubstantiation issue.

And my husband doesn't get that. He demanded I go to his church, and I refused, so now he's telling me what a terrible person, wife, Christian I am, because I won't obey him. And that I'm ignoring the Bible and what it says to do, and that he has authority to tell me what to do. I wholeheartedly disagree this is what Eph 5 means., in relation to what he's asking for. Am I wrong? Or is he?

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Hi Lucky, How are you? There is really nothing unclear about Ephesians 5 and the other plain passages in the NT about the husband's authority. It is real authority, and in fact the Scriptures use the same word for the woman's submission as it does about our submission to God, to masters and to the government. It's all the same basic principle. So yes, submit means submit. Many Christians question that today because it offends their contemporary values, but it's not an ambiguous issue.

Your husband should not be snidely putting you down. That is disrespectful to his wife. However, you still need to be a godly wife, and obey him, even when he is not being perfect. There is a way to tell him that his putdowns are unrighteous, but that way is not a refusal to be godly yourself. Keep being a good wife to him, even when he is not doing his best. Win him without a word, as 1 Peter 3 teaches.

The issue of religious observance should have been decided before marriage, but perhaps you thought you could just work it out. If you really find the Catholic beliefs to be against your conscience, that should not stop you from simply attending, yet not receiving the Eucharist. It is not evil to sit in a Catholic mass, if you are not a Catholic. Since he is the head of the home, he sets the learning for the children too. I know you may not like that, but that's one big reason people need to marry within their belief system or at least work out any differences beforehand. You can certainly explain what your concerns are, but he has the authority to make the decisions.

One final note, and perhaps a side topic, but if you take Jesus at His word, then the Communion certainly IS His body and blood. That's what Jesus said it is. And just read John 6. There really is no way out of it, as Jesus specifically defends his teaching when others are offended by it. In the Mosaic Covenant they really had a meal where they ate a lamb. In the New Covenant, we have one too, but it is the Lamb of God. Read John 6, sister.

Anyway, remember, there is no more reason to doubt what Ephesians 5 says about submitting to husbands than there is to doubt what it says about loving wives as one's flesh. We accept one we accept the other. Your husband should not be talking down to you, but you really do need to obey his authority.

Blessings to you both. I hope you have more of a meeting of minds on this.

Lucky this is one of the most contentious areas in our faith. Many people will try and make God's word conform to political correctness today instead of the other way around and that's sin. Submitting to your husbands authority is a biblical commandment and pretty black and white. Understand first and foremost that this command DOES NOT mean your husband has any more importance or value than you, it's just the order of leadership in God's family. Honestly the role of submitting is far easier than your husbands duty if he is obedient. Those who would tell you this command is no longer relevant, water it down or add stipulations are distorting God's word.

First off he IS acting sinfully and he IS NOT fulfilling that scripture himself. The rest of the command is for him to love you as Christ loved the church(that is sacrificially even unto death) and for him to use half of the command but the other is not good. However a staple of a walk with the Lord is to love people even when they are not lovable and to forgive even when it's tough. Your marriage covenant is not only with him but also with the Lord. Even if he's in sin you're not released from what you are commanded to do. It's tough!! I have been fighting it on the other side for years, trying to Love a wife sacrificially even though she doesn't love or respect me the way she's commanded. As I see it you have two issues, being strong and obedient to what you're commanded to do and to try and save your husband. The Apostle Paul reiterates the command to submit to your husband's leadership in most of his epistles, Simon Peter reiterates this but adds something important, you can save your husband by obedience to him and God!!

1 Peter 3:1-6 says 1Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

What Peter is saying is that even if your husband is disobedient, you're still to submit and be pure as an example so as to save him. And do so fearlessly(the Lord knows what you're going throug

Understand that when you're obedient to God's word and submitting to your husband's authority you're submitting to God first, you are earning a crown of righteousness no one can take away and you're being faithful to the Lord in spite of adversity. What reward you have coming!!

Haipule said:

Lets continue in 1 Corinthians 11:

4) Every man one-keeps-on(customary)-praying(motivated to do so), or one-keeps-on(customary)-(standing)in-front-telling(prophesying) (praying or prophesying refers to public speaking) down head(ashamedly), one-keeps-on-holding(i.e. holding his head down) he-down-shames(disgraces) thee head of-him-same(in verse 3, the man's head is thee Anointed-One(christos).

5) Yet, every woman one-keeps-on(customary)-praying(motivated to do so), or one-keeps-on(customary)-(standing)in-front-telling(prophesying) (praying or prophesying refers to public speaking) un-down-covered(not properly veiled, hiding) to-thee (her own)head she-down-shames(disgraces) thee head of-her-same(in verse 3, the woman's head is thee husband(christos); for one it-keeps-on-being and-also thee same to-thee, one(she)-has-been-shaving(motivated to do so).

Without going into a lengthy discussion about Paul's choice of words, word play and his sense of humor here, Paul is telling us that men should public speak boldly and women should speak with a mouth filter.

By not understanding these things, we are taught that men shouldn't wear long hair and women should wear hats in church--ridiculous!

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At this point, I have to think you’re yanking people’s chains here. Not only did you mansplain the Bible, but you mansplained it incorrectly, and it seems like you manage to interpret every passage to mean that women serve you, your home, and provide you sex whenever, while women are to be something of a cross between a houseplant and a prostitute.

Tropical Wilds said:

At this point, I have to think you’re yanking people’s chains here. Not only did you mansplain the Bible, but you mansplained it incorrectly, and it seems like you manage to interpret every passage to mean that women serve you, your home, and provide you sex whenever, while women are to be something of a cross between a houseplant and a prostitute.

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Mansplain? Had to look that one up. Thanks for expanding my vocabulary today!

Tropical Wilds said:

At this point, I have to think you’re yanking people’s chains here. Not only did you mansplain the Bible, but you mansplained it incorrectly, and it seems like you manage to interpret every passage to mean that women serve you, your home, and provide you sex whenever, while women are to be something of a cross between a houseplant and a prostitute.

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I admit I had a hard time figuring out what he was saying, but was that what he was saying?

Thanks Wagonwheel. According to the Bible, as a normal human being reads a text, the husband has authority over his wife. It is not radically different from any authority relationship, whether to government, master, parents, God. That is the plain meaning of the language. People only try and jump around this because they want to live by the world's rules, and their prideful heart, but the Bible states gender roles much MORE plainly than it states a man cannot marry a man. It also states in equally plain language that the wife is to bear the children and keep the home. That's not my opinion. It's just what it says. Neither husband nor wife can withhold their affections from the other. Some people here may not LIKE the Bible, but that is what the Bible teaches. Follow God, not the trends of man.

Some people who argue husband authority also tend to leave out Scripture that clearly speaks to equality.. Even Jesus did not use authority to his advantage, instead he humbled himself to become a man. He humbled himself for the sake of the church, and he died to himself, to his own needs and ego, so that the church would live. He placed himself under her and elevated the church to a position of honour. Iow, he submitted to her best interests. The Bible never expects a woman to do something that a man won't have to do, and the Bible never expects a man to do something that is not also expected of a woman. There is no hierarchy in human relationships. If you are in a hierarchical relationship, then you are in a man-made construct and it can indeed be broken.