Did the eternal Word of God die at the cross?

hedrick · Apr 29, 2018

food4thought said:
John 5:26 NASB "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Don't read too much into this. The context is about Jesus giving life to us. This simply says that he's a source of life for humanity. It's probably an anachronism to read it as saying something about Trinitarian theology.

This passage, on the other hand

John 10:17 NASB "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

does seem to say that Jesus had the power to resume life after being killed. It's important to look at 10:18 as well. He does that at the Father's command, not on his own. It's certainly conceivable that John thought the Father's power was involved as well. Creation happened at God's command...

Der Alte · Apr 29, 2018

Micah888 said:
begin

The Bible states that Christ made His soul an offering for sin. That is a very profound statement, and no human being will fathom it. Thus Christ offered body, soul, and spirit to God the Father as the ultimate "whole burnt offering". And after He had conquered sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan on the Cross and cried "It is finished", His soul and spirit went to the abode of the righteous dead in Sheol/Hades.
But the Lord was busy during those three days and three nights. He "preached" to the spirits in prison (in Hades). Since there is no "second chance" for the lost, He did not preach the Gospel, but proclaimed His victory. No doubt the evil spirits in Tartarus, as well as the lost souls in Hades (separated from the righteous who were in Abraham's bosom) heard Christ distinctly and clearly. So the Lord was not sleeping while His body gave the appearance of sleep in the tomb. And He certainly did not enter the Lake of Fire.

end

Or we may be misunderstanding what Peter was saying

1 Peter 3:19-20
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Hades is never called prison and prison is never called hades in the NT. The only salvation spoken of in this passage is Noah and his family who were alive not dead spirits in prison. In Lk 4 Jesus tells us His earthly ministry

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 61:1-2. The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war."

hedrick · Apr 29, 2018

But on the idea of Christ dying the 2nd death, it depends upon what you mean.

If you mean that Jesus experienced Hell temporarily, I don't think there's any problem with that. But if the eternal Word somehow stopped functioning for a while, I think the universe would have been in serious trouble.

Micah888 · Apr 29, 2018

Der Alter said:
Hades is never called prison and prison is never called hades in the NT.

While that may be literally true, Sheol/Hades was a metaphorical prison, while Tartarus is a literal prison, and so is the Bottomless Pit.

How do we know that Sheol was likened to a prison? There are many OT Scriptures which describe Sheol.

The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God. (Psa 9:17)

Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [Sheol]. (Psa 31:17)

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [Sheol], whither thou goest. (Eccl 9:10)

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

Hillsage said:
What is your definition of soul? I believe that we and Jesus are spirit soul and body.

To be honest, IDK how to define soul as opposed to defining the spirit... even the author of Hebrews felt it was a fine line (Hebrews 4:12)... I know it is more than just physical life because the Father has a soul:

Matthew 12:18 NASB "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.

Der Alte · Apr 29, 2018

Micah888 said:
While that may be literally true, Sheol/Hades was a metaphorical prison, while Tartarus is a literal prison, and so is the Bottomless Pit.
How do we know that Sheol was likened to a prison? There are many OT Scriptures which describe Sheol.
The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God. (Psa 9:17)
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [Sheol]. (Psa 31:17)
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [Sheol], whither thou goest. (Eccl 9:10)

1 Pet. was written to formerly pagan Christians. It is not likely that they would know about Psalms and Ecclesiastes and connect prison with the grave.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Job3315 · Apr 29, 2018

food4thought said:
I agree with your post, but I don't see how it answers my question... did the eternal Word of God suffer physical death on the cross? Am I wrong in some way for thinking He did?

Oh, that’s not what I understood from your question. Yes, He suffered physically just as any sacrifice. He needed to be despised and rejected. He needed to go through that death because He was carrying the sin of the world.

Deadworm · Apr 29, 2018

The risen Christ is not the same as the preincarnate Son or "Logos." As applied to Christ in John 1:1-2, the Logos (= literally, too vaguely "Word") designates "the rational Self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability. In other words, prior to His incarnation, God the Son lacked the human nature He acquired through the incarnation. So when Jesus died, the omnipresent Logos did not die. In other words, the Trinity did not become a Binity between the earthly Jesus' life and His resurrection.

So what happened to Jesus' human soul after the resurrection? Is there a "guy" in heaven distinct from the omnipresent Logos? The NT solved this problem in a way never picked up by orthodox church creeds and councils: it taught that through Jesus' resurrection He was "begotten" (= birthed) as God's Son, grounding this insight in Psalm 2:8: "You are my Son; today I have begotten you." Acts 13:33-34 and Hebrews 1:3-5 both apply Psalm 2:7 to Jesus' 2nd birth after His virgin birth. By the resurrection, Jesus' human consciousness was birthed as God consciousness, so that there is no isolated "guy" named Jesus in heaven..

Eloy Craft · Apr 29, 2018

Micah888 said:
As to death, the first death is physical -- the separation of the body from the soul and spirit. But the second death is eternal separation from God. Christ experienced both deaths on our behalf, but rather than the second death being eternal, it lasted for three dark hours on the Cross. and that is because He is the Son of God (fully God).

This is confusing. Since eternity is defined as a state of changelessness which is secondarily, an unending duration. To enter into a state that is subject to change and a finite duration , is by definition temporal rather than eternal. Also Jesus' soul and body separated. Yet that state was also temporal for Jesus. The sign of Jonah. The just order God created is upset by the presence of a perfectly ordered soul in a disembodied state, like the whale vomited out Jonah, the belly of the earth could not hold down a perfectly just soul that had a body able to to receive it.

Micah888 said:
Exactly. And that is why all this "philosophizing" about impassibility should be left to the philosophers. The Mystery of God is exactly what that says.

Divine Revelation introduces truth's that have ne3ver been expressed in human language. Communicating the Revelation requires accurate expression so the words are able to enable another to conceptualize as accurately as possible. Words to do that can be borrowed if appropriate or developed.

Micah888 said:
What in the world are you talking about? Can you explain the Mystery of God with you human mind? If so, kindly enlighten us.

Philosophy is a discipline that has developed a language that can most accurately communicate the what God has revealed. You are not appreciating that and speaking ill of noble efforts to help other Christians conceptualize and construct in their minds a reality that is unknown new and divine. Jesus said there were alot of things He couldn't teach because the disciples were not ready to receive them. The Holy Spirit will teach them from the store of Truth that belongs to Jesus.

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

icxn said:
Replace the word subsistence with hypostasis. Hypostasis is that which makes an individual unique, his person or character. Nature defines kind, a class or genus. When Christ was incarnate He united a human nature to His divine one. As a result He became subject to suffering and death.

I think I can agree with all that.

The word He refers to the hypostasis not to the nature. When He died, only that part of Him that is subject to death, namely the human nature, died. Death being the separation of the soul from the body, did not divide the one hypostasis of Christ, that is what St. John is trying to say.

That I think is where I might be in disagreement.

Also, unlike us, His body did not suffer corruption (Psalm. 16:10), because of the hypostatic union with His divinity.

That is something I've never considered before, I'll have to digest it for a bit.

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

Ken Rank said:
If you read Genesis, God took Adam's body, breathed into it and THEN is became a living soul. So, the "soul" isn't a separate entity, it is what becomes of the body when God gives it life. The problem is, it doesn't always translate that way and, because so many know only English, we have this misunderstanding.

I don't think it is a misunderstanding. This verse, quoted in the NT, seems to indicate that God has a soul:

Isaiah 42:1 NASB "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

That, and the Word is Spirit and existed before it became flesh. It existed after the flesh died... the Spirit can't be killed and isn't even fully comprehended by us.

That's an interesting point. I'll need to think about that for a bit.

So if you have anything wrong... it is only in trying to create an absolute answer concerning the spiritual while existing in still fallen flesh.

Blessings.

True. Blessings to you as well.

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

hedrick said:
The following is from a letter by Cyril that was approved by Chalcedon:

"We assert that this is the way in which he suffered and rose from the dead. It is not that the Logos of God suffered in his own nature, being overcome by stripes or nail-piercing or any of the other injuries; for the divine, since it is incorporeal, is impassible. Since, however, the body that had become his own underwent suffering, he is—once again—said to have suffered these things for our sakes, for the impassible One was within the suffering body. Moreover, we reason in exactly the same way in the case of his dying. God’s Logos is by nature immortal and incorruptible and Life and Lifegiver, but since, as Paul says, “by the grace of God” his very own body “tasted death on behalf of every person” [Heb. 2:9], he himself is said to have suffered this death which came about on our account. It is not that he actually experienced death as far as anything which touches his [divine] nature is concerned; to think that would be insanity. Rather it is that, as I said earlier, his flesh tasted death."

Hello hedrick. As you know, I really struggle with Chalcedon. I guess I should just give up figuring it out and keep it simple like Leo: two natures and one person and leave it at that. I don't think I'll ever get around impassibility, though. Something has to give, either my resolution to stay orthodox in every way, or my thoughts on what really happened at the cross.

hedrick · Apr 29, 2018

food4thought said:
I don't think it is a misunderstanding. This verse, quoted in the NT, seems to indicate that God has a soul:

Isaiah 42:1 NASB "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

I believe this is an idiom, which has been translated too literally. Remember in the OT "soul" often just means self.

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

hedrick said:
But on the idea of Christ dying the 2nd death, it depends upon what you mean.

If you mean that Jesus experienced Hell temporarily, I don't think there's any problem with that. But if the eternal Word somehow stopped functioning for a while, I think the universe would have been in serious trouble.

I think Jesus experienced a taste of the second death when He took the Father's wrath for 3 hours. When the eternal Word experienced this, we have no real idea how this effected the eternal communion of agape that the Trinity has always had, but what Jesus experienced should in some way be commensurate with what the lost will experience in hell... it's really a mystery that defies explanation in my mind.

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
It is correct: God died on the cross, because Jesus is God. This is part of the Mystery of the Incarnation, the Impassible was made Passible. St. Ignatius of Antioch's hymn in his letter to the Ephesians,

"There is one Physician both flesh and spirit;
Both made and not made;
God existing in flesh;
True life in death;
Both of Mary and of God;
Passible and Impassible--
Even Jesus Christ our Lord."

We can compare this with the Mystery of Faith St. Paul quotes in 1 Timothy 3:16.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks, CryptoLutheran. I feel a bit better, but I still may need to reconsider my ideas about what exactly happened at the cross.

hedrick · Apr 29, 2018

food4thought said:
Hello hedrick. As you know, I really struggle with Chalcedon. I guess I should just give up figuring it out and keep it simple like Leo: two natures and one person and leave it at that. I don't think I'll ever get around impassibility, though. Something has to give, either my resolution to stay orthodox in every way, or my thoughts on what really happened at the cross.

I actually agree with you. That's why I pointed you at Wright. He provides an alternative to Chalcedon that makes proper use of Scripture and still sees Jesus as human and God.

I'd ask what status you give to orthodox theology. I see it as a human attempt to understand and explain what Scripture says, but in terms that make sense to the culture from which it came. It largely arose in trying to deal with beliefs that seemed wrong (the various heresies).

We can be sympathetic, and agree that the heresies actually did have problems, without thinking that what they said was necessarily perfect. First, no one thinks we can fully understand God. Second, it was a translation from a Jewish context into a Greek one. Our modern framework is different enough from either that it makes more sense to try to base our understanding directly on Scripture, rather than translating from another culture's translation.

Of course the results should have the same intention; it's too easy to produce a modern equivalent of one of the ancient heresies rather than a modern equivalent of ancient orthodoxy.

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

THE W said:
Was the eternal Word of God born through mary?

That depends upon what you mean "born through Mary"... I think the eternal Word did experience birth, but He obviously did not have His beginning at conception, or at birth. The Word of God pre-existed all creation.

food4thought · Apr 29, 2018

Deadworm said:
So what happened to Jesus' human soul after the resurrection? Is there a "guy" in heaven distinct from the omnipresent Logos? The NT solved this problem in a way never picked up by orthodox church creeds and councils: it taught that through Jesus' resurrection He was "begotten" (= birthed) as God's Son, grounding this insight in Psalm 2:8: "You are my Son; today I have begotten you." Acts 13:33-34 and Hebrews 1:3-5 both apply Psalm 2:7 to Jesus' 2nd birth after His virgin birth. By the resurrection, Jesus' human consciousness was birthed as God consciousness, so that there is no isolated "guy" named Jesus in heaven..

Hi Deadworm, thanks for the reply. Isn't this a form of Adoptionism? Am I mislabeling you? I'm of the belief that Jesus was God from the moment of conception...

Ken Rank · Apr 29, 2018

food4thought said:
I don't think it is a misunderstanding. This verse, quoted in the NT, seems to indicate that God has a soul:

Like I said, it does read a little differently in the Hebrew. We end up with 3 parts to the body in Greek and then in English and we like that because it stands in harmony with the Christian understanding of the trinity and thus preaches very well.

But, Genesis is pretty clear:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed Adam from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Adam became a living soul.

Notice "Adam" is called by name (in the Hebrew, most translations put "man" here) and isn't a "soul" until God gives him the breath of life. So we have a body and breath/spirit but until then join we don't have a soul. He "BECAME" a living soul. The two parts (body, breath/spirit) become something else when combined.

But, I will give it some more thought, too.

Eloy Craft · Apr 29, 2018

food4thought said:
Are you referring to these two verses?

John 5:26 NASB "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

and

John 10:17 NASB "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

I can see a potential problem with my view of the wrath of God being laid on the eternal Word (implying that Jesus also suffered the 2nd death on our behalf), but I have no concern about His physical death... IMO, Jesus had eternal life in view in those verses, not physical life.

Thank you for reminding me of these verses, I may have to rethink how I see the atonement, then...

I did have those verses in mind. I just used the first one I found. I think Hedrick makes a valid point about them too. I find it difficult to accept that Jesus would suffer a state of eternal rejection for those who will eternally reject Him. The absence of God in Hades and the the loss of divine presence expressed by Jesus words My God My God Why hast thou abandoned me? Seems to me evidence of Jesus entering the deepest pit a righteous soul would be found.

Did the eternal Word of God die at the cross?

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