SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2018

EmSw said:
Question - If the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, why in the world did the Jews offer sin-offerings and sacrifices? Was the slain Lamb not sufficient?

Your quesitons reveal a serious lack of understanding of Scripture.

The sin-offerings of the OT never saved anyone. They were a shadow of the Messiah to come. Galatians 3 explains the purpose of the Law and sacrifices. But then, you've rejected Paul's writings.

Or, review Hebrews 7-11. But then, you've rejected the entire book.

Whoever wrote Hebrews did not give you all of Leviticus 17 concerning blood. Do you know what was involved with blood sacrifices? Someone can take one verse and make a doctrine of it; do you think this is right to make doctrines this way?

Since you don't accept all of the Bible as inerrant, but discount or reject those portions that refute your views, it's not possible to have an honest discussion with you.

Kinda like trying to have a rational discussion about the earth with one of the "flat-earther" types.

Grip Docility · Apr 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you think?

Matthew 17:20 was my playful reference as you well know...

And to clearify and no longer leave any speculation... John 5:39-40 and John 3:14-17 remain my focus...

If a person’s faith isn’t rooted into the lifting up of the Son of Man/God as John 3:14 clearly states... and specifically binds to the event in the wilderness where people either looked and were saved or didn’t look and died... it is dead faith.

Only faith in Jesus’ work of Death, Burial and Ressurection... Saves...

If I had faith that could move mountains, but did not place it in Jesus’ DBR... I would have nothing.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2018

Grip Docility said:
Matthew 17:20 was my playful reference as you well know...

And to clearify and no longer leave any speculation... John 5:39-40 and John 3:14-17 remain my focus...

If a person’s faith isn’t rooted into the lifting up of the Son of Man/God as John 3:14 clearly states... and specifically binds to the event in the wilderness where people either looked and were saved or didn’t look and died... it is dead faith.

Only faith in Jesus’ work of Death, Burial and Ressurection... Saves...

If I had faith that could move mountains, but did not place it in Jesus’ DBR... I would have nothing.

Amen!

Grip Docility · Apr 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Your quesitons reveal a serious lack of understanding of Scripture.

The sin-offerings of the OT never saved anyone. They were a shadow of the Messiah to come. Galatians 3 explains the purpose of the Law and sacrifices. But then, you've rejected Paul's writings.

Or, review Hebrews 7-11. But then, you've rejected the entire book.

Since you don't accept all of the Bible as inerrant, but discount or reject those portions that refute your views, it's not possible to have an honest discussion with you.

Kinda like trying to have a rational discussion about the earth with one of the "flat-earther" types.

Flat Earther indeed...

Facts are only relevant if they support the Flat Earthers “perspective”...

Been there, had that discussion.

Nail -> Hammer -> Head !!

Well discerned @FreeGrace2 ... that is exactly what is going on.

The back and forth with @EmSw is profitable to discerning onlookers... but will yield no fruit from EmSw...

He searches the scriptures thinking salvation lies within them...

But... well, you know the John 5:40 of the matter... as EmSw keeps gravitating towards..

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

Grip Docility said:
Sir,

It’s over. You blaspheme the cross of Christ.

Please shelf myself as a participant in your questions or answers.

I am sincere... you willingly belittle the cross.

Thank you.

As I asked before, do you wear a cross with a dead Jesus on it? It seems you worship the cross, which would be an wooden idol. You do not focus on the cross, but on Jesus, who is our life.

Blaspheme the cross? Really? How does one blaspheme a dead object? The cross was a shame for Jesus, not anything of glory.

Why haven't you said anything about the Day of Atonement? Is it because it has nothing to do with a cross? Maybe you should really study up on the Day of Atonement. You will find out they did not beat and bloody the sacrifice, you will find only the high priest, and not pagan Romans, could perform the atonement on an altar in the tabernacle.

I've shown you Jesus finished the work the Father gave Him to do before the cross. This would include any work for atonement, reconciliation, and salvation. What work do you believe He did on the cross?

I see you want to run from any discussion with me. It seems my questions to you, put you in a dilemma to answer.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2018

Grip Docility said:
Flat Earther indeed...

Facts are only relevant if they support the Flat Earthers “perspective”...

Been there, had that discussion.

Nail -> Hammer -> Head !!

Well discerned @FreeGrace2 ... that is exactly what is going on.

The back and forth with @EmSw is profitable to discerning onlookers... but will yield no fruit from EmSw...

He searches the scriptures thinking salvation lies within them...

But... well, you know the John 5:40 of the matter... as EmSw keeps gravitating towards..

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2018

EmSw said:
I've shown you Jesus finished the work the Father gave Him to do before the cross. This would include any work for atonement, reconciliation, and salvation. What work do you believe He did on the cross?

No, you never did any such thing. Jesus uttered the single Greek word "tetelestai" while ON the cross, AFTER hanging there 3 hours in total darkness, and AFTER screaming "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

This is the beginning of Psa 22. It's quite possible He quoted the entire Psa at the top of His lungs.

And Jesus never asked a question that He didn't know the answer to. Asking question is a technique for imparting information. In Jesus' case, He was teaching that as He hung on that cross, He was paying for the sins of mankind. This was the death that He died for mankind; a spiritual death, not a physical death.

When God the Father turned His back on His Son, it was because "He became sin for us".

2 Cor 5:21 - God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I see you want to run from any discussion with me. It seems my questions to you, put you in a dilemma to answer.

Grip was quite clear about ceasing further discussion with you, given your blasphemous view of the cross.

However, given Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile., please explain what the 'gospel' is from this verse that brings salvation to everyone who believes.

justbyfaith · Apr 22, 2018

Jesus' death was indeed physical though it was also spiritual in that He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

You don't want to enter the realm of gnosticism by saying that Jesus didn't die a physical death. The Cross He died upon was very physical! And also, His physical blood was shed; He died a physical death.

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I found it in all that Paul wrote about what he preached about.

Major fail! You provided nothing from the OT. Do you know there is an OT?

Since you have failed to show how people were saved in the OT, I will give you actual OT verses to show you. Would that convince you?

Psalm 18:27
For You will save the humble people, But will bring down haughty looks.

Psalm 34:18
The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Psalm 109:26
Help me, O Lord my God! Oh, save me according to Your mercy (according to mercy, not a cross).

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Ezekiel 13:22
“Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his wicked way to save his life.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:24
“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

Ezekiel 33:19
But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.

Proverbs 28:18
Whoever walks blamelessly will be saved, But he who is perverse in his ways will suddenly fall.

Jeremiah 4:14
O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, That you may be saved. How long shall your evil thoughts lodge within you?

I have given you actual OT verses which say how a man was saved. Pay particular attention to the Ezekiel verses. Do you believe these? Let's see if you read these verses and confess them as true.

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you think?

Is faith divided? Are there two faiths? Remember, a dead faith is no faith at all.

Grip Docility · Apr 22, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Jesus' death was indeed physical though it was also spiritual in that He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

You don't want to enter the realm of gnosticism by saying that Jesus didn't die a physical death. The Cross He died upon was very physical! And also, His physical blood was shed; He died a physical death.

There is physical death and spiritual death... on the cross... as you noted.

Because EmSw doesn’t comprehend the depth of either... @FreeGrace2 was highlighting the Spiritual death... since @EmSw clearly can read about and knows about Jesus’ physical death.

@FreeGrace2 can correct me... but I’m confident enough in all the posts I’ve followed to assure you of this.

No gnostic concerns anywhere but @EmSw ... he (EmSw) is most assuredly outside of the realm of helpful doctrine.

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Your disregard of Holy Scripture is appalling indeed.

The verses you quoted had NOTHING to do with one's sins being forgiven by Jesus Christ.

The Bible is clear about our sins being forgiven. But you've rejected Scripture for your own dark agenda.

I am wondering if you read more than your pet verses.

Matthew 9:2
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

Luke 5:20
When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”

Luke 7:48
Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

Do these have anything to do sins forgiven by Jesus? Are these verses not clear to you? Do you reject these?

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

Grip Docility said:
There is physical death and spiritual death... on the cross... as you noted.

Because EmSw doesn’t comprehend the depth of either... @FreeGrace2 was highlighting the Spiritual death... since @EmSw clearly can read about and knows about Jesus’ physical death.

@FreeGrace2 can correct me... but I’m confident enough in all the posts I’ve followed to assure you of this.

No gnostic concerns anywhere but @EmSw ... he (EmSw) is most assuredly outside of the realm of helpful doctrine.

So Grip, you've resorted to insulting a person, instead of giving us the details of the Day of Atonement.

Grip Docility · Apr 22, 2018

EmSw said:
So Grip, you've resorted to insulting a person, instead of giving us the details of the Day of Atonement.

I am not the Holy Spirit and I recognize doctrinal blindness that is steeped in Self Justification.

The second you marginalized God’s ultimate Saccrifice and Gift for and to us... was the second you lost all debate credibility to me.

If it insults you to hear that you openly blaspheme HIS Blood... I’m deeply sad.

What you need is admission of your perpetual guilt and perpetual need of His DBR.

You have no desire to do anything than justify that Jesus DBR is ineffectual...

It’s in everything you post.

You have 66 books, the internet and 1 John 2:27...

If you actually gave a rip, you’ld look into it yourself. Instead... you reinforce your castle of doctrinal blunder and believe sand to be Rock.

You have no interest in debate for growth...

You have no interest in humility or admission of your guilt.

How do I know this?

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No, you never did any such thing. Jesus uttered the single Greek word "tetelestai" while ON the cross, AFTER hanging there 3 hours in total darkness, and AFTER screaming "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

Since you fail to read what I write, here it is again.

John 4:34
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

John 5:36
But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 17:4
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

Do you know when He finished the work? It was before the cross.

FreeGrace2 said:
This is the beginning of Psa 22. It's quite possible He quoted the entire Psa at the top of His lungs.

And Jesus never asked a question that He didn't know the answer to. Asking question is a technique for imparting information. In Jesus' case, He was teaching that as He hung on that cross, He was paying for the sins of mankind. This was the death that He died for mankind; a spiritual death, not a physical death.

When God the Father turned His back on His Son, it was because "He became sin for us".

2 Cor 5:21 - God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying Jesus becoming sin. Sin can't touch the Divine. And Jesus 'becoming' sin would not make us righteous.

FreeGrace2 said:
Grip was quite clear about ceasing further discussion with you, given your blasphemous view of the cross.

However, given Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile., please explain what the 'gospel' is from this verse that brings salvation to everyone who believes.

You are one who believes a dead object can be blasphemed also, huh? The cross is just a dead piece of wood. This seems to be the object of your worship. In the OT, this was called an idol.

I'm afraid you need to see what Jesus said to find out what the gospel was. Hint: it has nothing to do with death on a cross.

justbyfaith · Apr 22, 2018

@EmSw,

read Ephesians 3:1-5...

What the apostles preached was a mystery which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men...

Grip Docility · Apr 22, 2018

EmSw said:
Is faith divided? Are there two faiths? Remember, a dead faith is no faith at all.

I also quoted 1 Corinthians 13:2 and you are unknowingly missing that...

It too says that Faith without “Love” that could move mountains... is nothing.

Do you repent of your Marginalization of the Cross?

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

Grip Docility said:
I am not the Holy Spirit and I recognize doctrinal blindness that is steeped in Self Justification.

The second you marginalized God’s ultimate Saccrifice and Gift for and to us... was the second you lost all debate credibility to me.

If it insults you to hear that you openly blaspheme HIS Blood... I’m deeply sad.

What you need is admission of your perpetual guilt and perpetual need of His DBR.

You have no desire to do anything than justify that Jesus DBR is ineffectual...

It’s in everything you post.

You have 66 books, the internet and 1 John 2:27...

If you actually gave a rip, you’ld look into it yourself. Instead... you reinforce your castle of doctrinal blunder and believe sand to be Rock.

You have no interest in debate for growth...

You have no interest in humility or admission of your guilt.

How do I know this?

You probably know this like you know what the Day of Atonement entailed.

Grip Docility · Apr 22, 2018

EmSw said:
Since you fail to read what I write, here it is again.

John 4:34
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

John 5:36
But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 17:4
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

Do you know when He finished the work? It was before the cross.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying Jesus becoming sin. Sin can't touch the Divine. And Jesus 'becoming' sin would not make us righteous.

You are one who believes a dead object can be blasphemed also, huh? The cross is just a dead piece of wood. This seems to be the object of your worship. In the OT, this was called an idol.

I'm afraid you need to see what Jesus said to find out what the gospel was. Hint: it has nothing to do with death on a cross.

You Sir, divide incorrectly. You do not even differentiate between God and yourself in your doctrine.

Your understanding is nothing more than traditions of men.

justbyfaith · Apr 22, 2018

The gospel has everything to do with Jesus' death on the Cross...1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

EmSw · Apr 22, 2018

Grip Docility said:
I also quoted 1 Corinthians 13:2 and you are unknowingly missing that...

It too says that Faith without “Love” that could move mountains... is nothing.

Do you repent of your Marginalization of the Cross?

What in the world does moving mountains have to do with a dead wooden cross?

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

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