Help me analyse this statement and answer how faithless people can do good

frater_domus

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I have stumbled across the following text/post:

12272015144835.jpg


I have no idea what Chassidic literature is, neither do I care, so please refrain from making it a topic. I took the text at face value and, from what I am able to gather, it contradicts biblical teaching. However, I do not have perfect understanding. So, instead of breaking out in an angry rant, I want your help to analyse it according to the bible.

Now then, God did not "create atheists". God created humans in His image and we are given free will. Atheists are those who used that free will to deny God and live their lives for themselves.
But here is my question in conjunction with the text. The bible teaches us that none but God are good, that all are sinners are displease God. The bible teaches that good works are a result of saving faith and the fruits of the Spirit.
However, even unsaved people who denied God sometimes do deeds, which are good in His eyes. How is that possible? Is it a case of the law being written in their hearts, like Paul had written in Romans? Is it that, despite their natural affinity to evil due to the flesh, their free will allows them to act according to said 'writings on their heart'? Does the Spirit still work through them, despite them having turned back on God? If so, wouldn't that go against free will?

That part confuses me. I hope some one can explain that to me, according to biblical teachings. Cheers ;)
 

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But here is my question in conjunction with the text. The bible teaches us that none but God are good, that all are sinners are displease God. The bible teaches that good works are a result of saving faith and the fruits of the Spirit.
However, even unsaved people who denied God sometimes do deeds, which are good in His eyes.

Are they good in his eyes? This seems like an assumption.
 
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frater_domus

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Are they good in his eyes? This seems like an assumption.

They are not. Only through Christ are we made acceptable in His eyes. However, even those who are evil in His eyes still do good deeds. Less so than those who are guided by the Spirit. Sure, many do so to further selfish goals, but there are those cases that are born of compassion and love, those that show patience and diligence, which are fruits of the Spirit.
 
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Albion

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They are not. Only through Christ are we made acceptable in His eyes. However, even those who are evil in His eyes still do good deeds. Less so than those who are guided by the Spirit. Sure, many do so to further selfish goals, but there are those cases that are born of compassion and love, those that show patience and diligence, which are fruits of the Spirit.
I see what you mean. These acts would be good if we were not to get into the theological implications that you referred to. OK.

So why do atheists do them?

I believe it is because they grew up in a certain society in which moral standards were impressed upon them even though they rejected the religion which popularized those standards.
 
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Radagast

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So why do atheists do them?

I believe it is because they grew up in a certain society in which moral standards were impressed upon them even though they rejected the religion which popularized those standards.

Me, I would call it "common grace" -- those actions by which God restrains humanity from being as bad as it could be. The fact that people grow up "in a certain society in which moral standards were impressed upon them even though they rejected the religion which popularized those standards" is a big part of that. This is, of course, no credit to the people involved.
 
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frater_domus

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Well, there's a big assumption.

True, it is an assumption. But aren't there atheists who held the poor and the sick? If not atheists, then agnostics? Take a charity like Doctors without borders, for example. I am not aware of any godly/Christian roots, and yet they try to help. Sure, one could argue that there is corruption and that not all the money goes where it needs to go. One may also agrue, that the founders had other aims in mind. But I am fairly sure there are non-Christians that help those who are in need in that organization.

Mind you, it would be a real quick and easy answer to say that no one ever apart from Christians does any good ever. However, Christians still sin, so one can not see it as a black and white between Christians and non-Christians. But then again, we are all evil before God. See? Now I am running in circles again :D

Edit: Posted before I was aware of your previous post. What you have written isn't based on biblical teachings though, is it? Not that it does not sound plausible, it does. However, anything that isn't biblical is guesswork, in the end. I was hoping there was something in scripture about it.
 
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Funny that you brought this up. I have been wracking my brains for a memory of a complete atheist that has done a good deed without some altera motive or motivation by duty. And you know, after 60 years of life I cannot think of any. They will help a friend because the friend will help them back. They will help family because it is expected from them. They will help someone publicly because of the publicity etc etc. But I can't think of a pure good Samaritan that operated from a position of total non faith of any kind. Its a loaded question based on supposition.
 
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frater_domus

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Funny that you brought this up. I have been wracking my brains for a memory of a complete atheist that has done a good deed without some altera motive or motivation by duty. And you know, after 60 years of life I cannot think of any. They will help a friend because the friend will help them back. They will help family because it is expected from them. They will help someone publicly because of the publicity etc etc. But I can't think of a pure good Samaritan that operated from a position of total non faith of any kind. Its a loaded question based on supposition.

Thinking back to my time where I was an atheist, this is mostly true. In most occasions I had ulterior motives. However, there was one expection. I always acted loving towards animals and nature, unconditionally. I also never needed a reason to do good for nature. Those were the only actions I recall that, in retrospect, came from the heart. Sure, it is not the same as being good towards other human beings, but nature is still part of creation and treasured in the eye's of God.
 
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Not me

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I have stumbled across the following text/post:

12272015144835.jpg


I have no idea what Chassidic literature is, neither do I care, so please refrain from making it a topic. I took the text at face value and, from what I am able to gather, it contradicts biblical teaching. However, I do not have perfect understanding. So, instead of breaking out in an angry rant, I want your help to analyse it according to the bible.

Now then, God did not "create atheists". God created humans in His image and we are given free will. Atheists are those who used that free will to deny God and live their lives for themselves.
But here is my question in conjunction with the text. The bible teaches us that none but God are good, that all are sinners are displease God. The bible teaches that good works are a result of saving faith and the fruits of the Spirit.
However, even unsaved people who denied God sometimes do deeds, which are good in His eyes. How is that possible? Is it a case of the law being written in their hearts, like Paul had written in Romans? Is it that, despite their natural affinity to evil due to the flesh, their free will allows them to act according to said 'writings on their heart'? Does the Spirit still work through them, despite them having turned back on God? If so, wouldn't that go against free will?

That part confuses me. I hope some one can explain that to me, according to biblical teachings. Cheers ;)

I’m not sure this will help, but this creation has good and evil in it. So man can choose between the two. Sometimes to one side and sometimes to the other. Our salvation is necessary because the “sometime that people choose evil.” That can’t happen in heaven ever for if it did evil would be birthed and eventually it would spread evil everywhere. (my thoughts, just trying to help)

Much love in Christ, Not me
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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The bible teaches that good works are a result of saving faith and the fruits of the Spirit.
However, even unsaved people who denied God sometimes do deeds, which are good in His eyes. How is that possible? Is it a case of the law being written in their hearts
Your quoted secular argument was about good works in Man's eyes, not God's eyes. Men will always do works that are good in other men's eyes. Evil men will do evil things if their gang thinks them good. Now if an atheist does the same thing that a Christian does, does that credit him or his cause? We are not saved because of any good works that we do. So no.

But, if an atheist does do something "good", I agree it comes from the positive influence of godly people as Radagast explained it.
Me, I would call it "common grace" -- those actions by which God restrains humanity from being as bad as it could be. The fact that people grow up "in a certain society in which moral standards were impressed upon them even though they rejected the religion which popularized those standards" is a big part of that. This is, of course, no credit to the people involved.
It takes a while for depravity to take hold. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah, and the people of Noah's time. A world full of those that reject God is going to be full of evil deeds. For your argument against the atheist, you need to reference a world full of atheists.

Just this should be an argument against atheists; there have not been many atheist nations in recorded history. But look at Communist and Fascist nations as evidence that a country that rejects religion, any god, causes much suffering.

I like to use the example from history that the US is the most benevolent superpower in all of history.
 
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Radagast

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True, it is an assumption. But aren't there atheists who held the poor and the sick? If not atheists, then agnostics? Take a charity like Doctors without borders, for example. I am not aware of any godly/Christian roots, and yet they try to help.

The assumption I referred to is the idea that, by these acts, they please God.
 
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frater_domus

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It is interesting that this is posted in a Christians only section of CF. Perhaps this should be posted in a forum accessible to all forms of thought. You are only getting one side of the coin here for the most part.

I wanted a biblical opinion, for biblical truth is the only truth. That may sound close-minded, so I apologize. However, I show little interest in secular teaching beyond finding out why they are wrong when compared to divine truth.

Your quoted secular argument was about good works in Man's eyes, not God's eyes. Men will always do works that are good in other men's eyes. Evil men will do evil things if their gang thinks them good. Now if an atheist does the same thing that a Christian does, does that credit him or his cause? We are not saved because of any good works that we do. So no.

But, if an atheist does do something "good", I agree it comes from the positive influence of godly people as Radagast explained it.

It takes a while for depravity to take hold. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah, and the people of Noah's time. A world full of those that reject God is going to be full of evil deeds. For your argument against the atheist, you need to reference a world full of atheists.

Just this should be an argument against atheists; there have not been many atheist nations in recorded history. But look at Communist and Fascist nations as evidence that a country that rejects religion, any god, causes much suffering.

I like to use the example from history that the US is the most benevolent superpower in all of history.

Interesting. Yes, it makes sense. Salvation is indepedent of good works. The only connection is that good works are a result of saving faith, because we were created for good works. However, since we were created for good works, some still do it, as the evil nature has not yet taken over and we have free will. Much like a faulty machine, not every product will be damaging from the very beginning.
But what matter is the heart, so even a good deed can be poisoned by evil intent. Only through God can we be free from any evil, but just as a faulty machine needs time to break completely, it also needs time to be repaired, as such Christians still sin, albeit less and less, until their time in this world is over and they can ascend to heaven and be perfect.

I suppose one reason this confuses me is because I have some denial about the situation. I fear to admit to myself, that every person outside the influence of God is evil. Not only does it cloud my perception and gives me pride an open area of attack, it also conflicts with my personal perception of fairness, which is obviously wrong next to God’s, as well as fear for those close to me that are unsaved and me being afraid to admit that people I know as loving people to be evil and me, a wretched pile of sin and stupidity, am justified before God.
Little you said was new, I read it already in the bible and mentioned it above. But this is a rather bitter pill to swallow, both in terms of how depraved we are and alien God’s justice seems to those still suffering under the flesh :(
 
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Gottservant

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I have stumbled across the following text/post:

[...]

Now then, God did not "create atheists".

[...]

I think you nailed it right there, God did not create atheists - atheists are in the business of creating themselves.

But you said analyse it "biblically": you will remember Jesus said "either make the tree good and the fruit good or make the tree bad and the fruit bad" - this story you have presented is basically an effort to make the tree good.

But you don't want to examine it biblically on the basis of one verse alone, so remember as well, Jesus said "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" and in response to "who is my neighbour?" He said "hear the story of the good Samaritan" - what these scriptures show in relation to your story is that God welcomes good works just as is said in this story.

What I think this story says best is that good works take sowing and reaping and the right circumstance - where you are experiencing heart ache in relation to it being atheistic, I think comes down to humility: Jesus told the story of the rich man in Hell and Jesus said "God said 'all your life you had what was your desire'" the story of the atheist differs from this a little, significantly the atheist did not live for himself.

When it all boils down at the end, I think what you have going for you is that you have a God who does not stop doing good - a do-gooder atheist has no way to deny that God is worthy of the reputation for compassion that He has!
 
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