Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation

What happened?

quintessentialramble said:

Well there are a number of stories that this could reference in my life, it's a general questioning. But if you're asking what spurred the question, it was a tiff with the pastors family claiming I was barely tolerable. I sought the pastor to talk who said they care about me but people need boundaries, but his daughter blocked me on Facebook same day and is no longer speaking to me. Didn't really get an explanation. I'm just assuming I'm annoying.

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Is there a reason that you think people find you annoying?
to clarify: Is there a reason you feel that people view you that way?

quintessentialramble said:

I think Paul, who murdered Christian families, was telling those Christians to not have hatred or division in their ranks. I almost feel like those churches would have been offended by Paul's teachings, sort of like saying, "where does he get off saying that."

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The early church was not as much mad at St. Paul as they were scared to death of him. And yet, St. Paul became one who was referred to as a "beloved brother", and was highly esteemed .. e.g. Acts 9:17, 15:25; 2 Peter 3:15, not for his prior actions outside of Christ, of course, but as the "new creature" God made him in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17.

quintessentialramble said:

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says when giving your offering, if you suddenly remember your brother has something against you, go and be reconciled." Yet I have yet to see such reconciliation take place in the church.

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I'm sorry that you have not. In fact, I find it hard to believe because I have seen such love and forgiveness of one another in action many times in my 30+ years as a Christian in the churches I've been blessed to be a part of. It doesn't happen for a number of different reasons (which really boils down to continued sinful behavior on the part of one and/or both parties), and that is sad, but the fact that you have never witnessed it (or at least heard about it happening) is astounding to me.

Yours and His,
David

If I forgive you, this does not automatically mean I must trust you. I need to make sure with God about if and how He wants me to trust you. I understand that trust is not blind.

Even men who want to be trusted to take care of God's people need to be tested about if they should be trusted. So, even though they have been forgiven by Jesus, even men worthy of consideration for ordination need to be tested. 1 Timothy 3:1-10

For sharing in a Christian relationship, we have various things which the Bible says.

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

To me, this means we have mutual submission > therefore, I never push myself on a person. If she says she does not want to do something, I do not try to push her, but I encourage her to pray and make sure with God about what He has her doing. But, also, I do not let a lady steer me around, all the time.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

I am never to lord myself over a lady, to control her or use her. But be prayerful with her, all the time, and always welcome and encourage her to only do what she is satisfied to do with me or for me. So, in case she does not want to talk with me, I accept this, and I honor if she sees fit to tell me why she does not want to talk with me or does not want to do something else. She does not have to answer to me!!

Now, in case she is being selfish, I can be a good example for her. And this will connect me with other Christians who are being for real. In case someone does not want to share with me because I am being for real with God, I am not to try to pressure and force the person to share with me, but appreciate how I have good relating with others who are being for real.

According to www.guidetopsychology.com, forgiveness is simply to “stop wishing for revenge or to stop wanting to see the other person suffer in some way.” So you let go and cancel a perceived debt. This process involves only the one who has been offended. Let’s say someone owes you money but it’s been years and they have not attempted to pay you back. You decide that it’s been years, so you will no longer expect them to pay you back. You forgive what is owed to you by cancelling the debt. Now let’s say the offense is that you made racist comments about their mixed-race child. It’s not a tangible debt that they owe you, but it is no less an offense that you feel they owe you an apology for. But they never give you an apology, and so you feel the pain for a while, then you decide to let go of the debt of apology. However, you no longer want to be friends again because you do not want to set yourself up to hear those kinds of insults and so you distance yourself. That is forgiveness, but the relationship is now very damaged.

A fallacy of forgiveness is that it equates to reconciliation. It is true that forgiveness is part of the reconciliation process, though. Forgiveness takes only one. Reconciliation takes two. It is the process of restoring a right relationship. There are two components to restoring relationship: forgiveness and penance. Each component can function independently of the other, but both are required to restore a right relationship between two people.

Penance involves three steps: confession (admitting the offense), repentance (sorrow for the offense and a request for forgiveness), and penalty (accepting and paying the consequences of the offense). We need to be careful here, to not confuse the consequences of the offense for the offended person’s desired vengeance. In my previous example with an insult against a mixed-race child, the person who made the insult would come and admit the offense specifically, experience true sorrow that they made the comment, and then accept that they will have a changed relationship as a result of the comment. It might look like this “Yesterday when I made the comment about mixed races, I had forgotten that you have a mixed-race child. It’s no excuse for what I said, and when I realized how it sounded, I felt awful. I could not sleep all night because I know that must have hurt you deeply. I understand that it might take a long time to trust me again, but I really do hope that you will forgive me. I never meant to hurt you.”

Think about this. How different is it to forgive someone who does penance versus someone who doesn’t? It can be very, very hard to forgive if no true penance takes place. In fact, it is impossible to truly forgive someone until you have felt the full extent of the pain they caused you, and if there is no penance, the heart may become hardened towards you. But if there is penance, it alleviates some of that pain, and enables soft hearts all around.

Even in that verse you quote, forgiveness can still happen without reconciliation. The Bible tells us to forgive. The Bible also - separately - tells us that we need to reconcile as far as it depends on us. Boundaries are a good thing, and we can work on having healthy relationships, but if others are not willing to also have a healthy relationship with us, we are not obligated to be in relationship with them. That does not mean we shouldn't still forgive them.

As well, someone asking forgiveness does not mean they are sorrowful. Sorrow brings about a change in behaviour, but if a behaviour keeps happening, you are not obligated to subject yourself to that sinful behaviour. You leave the relationship and you walk away, and you can still forgive the perceived debt.

The site I quoted provided a well-written and concise description of forgiveness. That is also backed up by scripture. Jesus talks about it when he talks about the man who asked forgiveness of a large sum of money, but would not forgive a small debt someone owed to him.

The point of my discussion is that if you are the offender, you need to have penance, and if you are the one who needs to forgive, you need to leave your sacrifice at the altar and be reconciled as far as it depends on you. Either way, it is up to you to make attempts to fix and repair ruptured relationships. If the other party is not willing, then you know you have done all you could - as far as it depends on you.

As well, that quote you just provided needs to be taken into context of scripture as well as being practical and logical about it. It talks about sin. Actual sin. As a softy kind of culture in today's world, every time we feel offended, we assume someone sinned against us. That is not the case. Sometimes people say things that are not so nice, or do things that are not what WE want, but that does not mean they sinned. So we should not be getting in their face and calling them out every time we feel offended. Rather, we need to look at their perspective, understand what went wrong from OUR perspective (how did YOU contribute to the problem), and then decide whether the other person actually sinned, or if it's just something you didn't like. If it's something they did that is actually sin, then it is not up to us to go and call them out on it; it IS up to us to consider whether WE are the one to go and call them out on it. Maybe that is a job better left to someone who is not subjectively involved. But it IS up to us to forgive, whether it is a sin against you personally or whether it's simply something you were offended about.

And that is what boundaries are about - figuring out what you are responsible for and taking responsibility for it.

ETA - While salvation requires penance as a precursor to God's forgiveness, we have to remember that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. In other words, his intent was that we would all come to him for salvation. Our intent, then, should also be to forgive. The disciples talked about this, and Jesus said that we need to forgive 77 X 7 in a day - and he didn't say penance was a precursor. Not only that, but no one can sin that much in a day, so imo, this means that every time we replay the scenario or sin in our mind, we need to actively use our thinking brain to deliberately use the logic of forgiveness to override our hurt emotions.

He noticed how they were choosing the seats of honor. He said to them, “When you are invited by someone to a wedding, don’t take the seat of honor, for someone more highly esteemed than you may have been invited by him. Then the one who invited both of you will come to you and say, ‘Give up this seat.’ And with shame, you would proceed to take the lowest seat. But when you are invited, go and recline in the lowest seat so that when the one who invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you shall be honored in the presence of all those who are dining with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
- Luke 14:7-11

What you are experiencing is spiritual persecution (we wrestle not against the flesh and blood). As far as they know, they are doing what is right in God's sight, but because they are not hearing you (as I can hear a genuine complaint of injustice from your speech), they are demonstrating that they have exalted themselves inappropriately, as in Luke 14:7. If you endure with wisdom and patience so that you do not become corrupted by the abusiveness (Proverbs 4:23, Matthew 15:18), God will be able to make it work out for your good (Romans 8:28, Matthew 6:20, Matthew 6:1-2, Matthew 5:10).

“Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and flog you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings because of Me, as a witness to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you should say, for it shall be given to you in that hour what you should say. For it is not you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against their parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end shall be saved. Whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. Amen, I tell you, you will never finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple to become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

“So do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed and nothing hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear in your ear, proclaim from the housetops! And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
- Matthew 10:16-28

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death.
- 1 John 3:14

“And answering, the King will say to them, ‘Amen, I tell you, whatever you did to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
- Matthew 25:40

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I selected you so that you would go and produce fruit, and your fruit would remain. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in My name.

“These things I command you, so that you may love one another.”

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. But you are not of the world, since I have chosen you out of the world; therefore the world hates you.

“Remember the word I spoke to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you also. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

“But all these things they will do to you for the sake of My name, because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin.

“He who hates Me also hates My Father. If I had not done works among them that no one else did, they would have no sin. But now they have seen and have hated both Me and My Father. So is fulfilled the word written in their Scripture, ‘They hated Me for no reason.’
- John 15:16-25

.. keep in mind that we love because He first loved us, and even Phillip took a while to catch on (John 14:9-10).

Okay, so they did something unloving, but that is not necessarily sin. They have an attitude that is not necessarily loving, but that is not necessarily about sin. In fact, it tells me that they have some deep pain of their own that they feel they have to treat someone in such an unloving way. But you can't change them or their attitude, and calling them out on it and confronting it may actually escalate the problem rather than solve anything.

They can behave however they want, even in unloving ways. Remember that pastor's kids - even adult ones - are human beings, too, and being raised in a pastor's home, they likely had way higher expectations put on them than other kids in the church. Being raised in a pastor's home also does not mean they are more mature in Christian faith than other kids. If they want to go to college for biblical studies or whatever other degree they choose, that's actually a good thing because it says to me they want to pursue a deeper relationship with the Lord, and work in his ministry. It is up to the college to determine whether they are suitable candidates for ministry. It is not up to you.

The only thing that is up to you is how you are going to respond and behave with this rupture in your relationship with the pastor's family. I've read a few threads on this subject, where you have discussed your confusion over it. It has hurt you deeply because you have been friends with them and thought your relationship with them was special. And your feelings are hurt because of it. That is understandable - a significant part of your social world has just ruptured. You may not be able to repair this relationship, so you may need to grieve it and move on, and leave God to take care of it, to speak truth to those who care to listen, and to lead whoever is responsible to the sorrow that brings about repentance. That also might mean you. After all, in mutual relationships, both are responsible for rupture, to one degree or another. Your part might be that you had placed too many expectations on the relationship, or on the individuals just because they were raised in a Christian home. Your part may be that you are annoying and are struggling to figure out where you went wrong. Please do some prayer and introspection and listen to God - he will bring it to your mind and your heart, if you are honest with yourself. And when you do figure out your part, the best thing you can do is experience true penance, and then go and confess your part, request forgiveness, and accept the consequences. But... before you do, make sure you will not go there and make blame, justification, excuses, rationalization, projection, or say "I did this, but you did that." You need to be able to go and say "I did this___ and I know that the effect on you was this___. I want you to know how deeply sorry I am. I truly regret having done this___, and my best hope is that even though our relationship is now changed as a result, that you are able to eventually forgive me." Then leave it at that, and do not expect an immediate response. They may not be ready for it.

That is good boundaries - knowing what you are responsible for, taking action on that responsibility, and letting them be responsible for themselves. It's about knowing that you can't change them or control what they do. It's about accepting restrictions on the relationship, knowing where you end and they begin. It's about respect - respecting who they are as a family, especially having to live with higher expectations due to their church status, and it's also about respecting yourself enough to have integrity in how you respond.

This has been a very difficult thing for you to process, and I encourage you to spend time in prayer - even spend a day fasting so you are more clearly able to hear God when he speaks truth to you. But start your prayer with reconciliation to God, confessing your feelings, your sins, your heartache in this matter, and that you have not trusted God to work his will in it. Spend some time honoring him for his holiness, because only he is holy. No other creature in heaven or earth matches his holiness. Sit with that for a while and think about what that means. Meditate on a verse of prayer or praise for a while, so it turns your heart toward Jesus and the depth of his love for you. And then make your petition... ask him to examine your heart in the matter, and to show you what went wrong, and what you are responsible to do in order to make a move toward forgiveness and possibly towards reconciliation. And be sure to sit and listen. This may take a long time. End with expressing your gratitude for helping you in the matter and for being with you in your grief over the loss of relationship.

That is good boundaries.

ETA - I can see right now how you have not forgiven. You are looking for ways that you can get them to confess what they did, and own up to how they hurt you. You need to let go of that... you perceive that they owe you an explanation for their unloving behaviour. But you need to let that debt of explanation go. You may never get it, so don't drive yourself crazy by going through life expecting it.

OP, I believe that love and sin are mutually exclusive, so whenever there is sin manifest, it is due to the breakdown of love. Sin is the selfish thing at the expense of others, love is the selfless thing to the good of others.

Jesus said that the increase of iniquity in the last days will cause love to wax cold. These ones are lying to you and they are being unkind, that means they are walking in the darkness and not coming forward to the light that their deeds be clearly seen as wrought in God (John 3:20). That behaviour is motivated by a hatred, because it is the murderous spirit. You can see how it is trying to quicken your spirit (1 John 3:15, Luke 21:17).

Whatever has given them the idea to hate you, that I can only speculate by guessing based upon observations of past experience of the similar nature. I do know there is special temptation of ego in positions of church leadership, similar to Haman toward Mordechai and Nebuchadnezzar toward Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Yet, if you have the authentic Christian spirit, that is brotherhood (Revelation 19:10), then they will be unable to gain the worship they desire of you because you do not have that philosophy (John 4:14). As Christians (John 13:35), we serve each other in love and we have no need to be taught, because Christ in us teaches us all things (1 John 2:27).

So you see there is a spirit that is eager to take hold of those who subject themselves to the passion of teaching roles, and having discovered the exploitable weakness in them, takes them captive through their propensity to sin, and then you get pastors that shut up the kingdom of heaven just as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 23.

There was a really good article written a couple of days ago, full of wisdom and truth. Here's a link to it for you:

The Real Front Lines

quintessentialramble said:

I sought the pastor to talk who said they care about me but

Didn't really get an explanation. I'm just assuming I'm annoying.

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Maybe attend another church for a while as you sort this out?

When I've done this in the past occasionally I find a church that we enjoy much more.

M-Bob

quintessentialramble said:

So i guess I have a concern. The pastor's son, who's going to college to be involved in ministry, is the one who called me barely tolerable, but it is the daughter who felt this way. While I do forgive them for their words, and genuinely care about them, I also feel that this is a great cause for concern. I want to stress this, even if you are correct. There is a very real difference between having boundaries, and being unloving. There are certainly more healthy ways of dealing with a situation then attacking a person for their annoyance or even for their sin. I have not attacked them or demanded anything from them in response, I have simply given them space, I simply feel that there is a very real issue here. The girl who created a boundary, blocked me on facebook when I asked to talk to the pastor about what was going on, it's almost like they're saying, we don't want you at church, although they haven't actually said that (I feel it may have been implied), and when I explained what happened, the father had no idea his son said those words. This is the great concern I have. If the pastor's children are SO unloving, that they want someone out of the church, after they have told me there's no animosity, then I have a very great concern. If they are actually wanting someone to leave church just because they're annoying, then I greatly have to question their ministry entirely. The pastor said I'm still welcome to the church, so I know it's what he believes, and the other pastor said he doesn't think I've offended them, and everything just has me so confused. I know it would be super awkward for the family if I did show up at church, and I don't want to make things weird for them, but now that I'm thinking about the situation more, I'm actually more concerned if that is the attitude. But I really have no way of knowing. I guess I just feel like the kids want me gone from the church, but the pastor, being a pastor, understands you can't really do that unless there's a valid reason. idk, I'm just really confused by it all. The kids are college age and as far as I can tell are planning on being in ministry, so I guess that's why I'm concerned about it.

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There was a reason I asked you why you believe you are annoying. There are times when people carry out behaviors with the expectation of being forgiven, sometimes even before the wrong. In such instances, the person really isn't repentant but is trying to use the system as a loophole for continuing behaviors.

Are there times when people can't help sinning against someone regularly? I'm sure there are. But more times than not, the person keeps doing the behavior because that person really isn't sorry. In such cases, I can see a person forgiving and moving away from the relationship. Only you know whether or not this is the case for you.

quintessentialramble said:

I know it would be super awkward for the family if I did show up at church, and I don't want to make things weird for them,

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You need to decide who you go to church for. If you are going to church for their acceptance, you should just give up because it is clear they have no intention of giving you that. On the other hand, if you are going because you worship Jesus Christ, then go there for Him. You can make friends with other people in the church, and you can be free to sing, clap and receive His guidance through the spoken Word.

quintessentialramble said:

I've been much confused on this topic, and have become utterly confused. I have always believed that forgiveness and reconciliation go hand in hand. For one, God doesn't say He forgives you, but can't be reconciled to you. He reconciled to you the instant you asked for forgiveness. Sometimes people think forgiveness is there to help us move on, but we don't need to change. In this case I question if it is even forgiveness. Some people believe you can't be reconciled to certain people because they consistently hurt you or have hurt them in such a terrible way that you can't be reconciled. I have always thought when someone says"I forgive you, but we can no longer associate with each other," then I wonder if they've actually forgiven me. But then there are such terrible sins I can certainly understand the need to distance yourself. But I also think Paul, who murdered Christian families, was telling those Christians to not have hatred or division in their ranks. I almost feel like those churches would have been offended by Paul's teachings, sort of like saying, "where does he get off saying that." In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says when giving your offering, if you suddenly remember your brother has something against you, go and be reconciled." Yet I have yet to see such reconciliation take place in the church. If we're not being examples of love, then why are we bothering with ministry? How can we talk about God's forgiveness logically to the unsaved when we don't know how to practice forgiveness ourselves? If they come to know God's forgiveness into reconciliation with God, then why in the world do we not do it with other people?

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Messiah talked about being reconciled with "your brother" which generally means a fellow believer.

Forgiveness and reconciliation do not at all necessarily go together. Let's say you find out a friend stole something from you to support a drug habit. This person is perfectly happy to lie to you and fool you more in the future. You can forgive the theft, but you need to distance yourself from that person. Otherwise you will be an enabler, not to mention a victim.

Serving Zion said:

You need to decide who you go to church for. If you are going to church for their acceptance, you should just give up because it is clear they have no intention of giving you that. On the other hand, if you are going because you worship Jesus Christ, then go there for Him. You can make friends with other people in the church, and you can be free to sing, clap and receive His guidance through the spoken Word.

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Or another Church could be searched out. Nothing is saying anyone has to stay there and feel uncomfortable and conflicted.

LoricaLady said:

Or another Church could be searched out. Nothing is saying anyone has to stay there and feel uncomfortable and conflicted.

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That is potentially true (1 Corinthians 6:20), but who really knows? (eg. Proverbs 28:1 vs. Proverbs 27:12, ie. Proverbs 3:5-6).


The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.

Psalms 23