Open Heart

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I would be there except I take those to be individual
mandates, not for the state. The state is amoral by necessity.
I might agree with you, except that individual charity simply doesn't meet the need. Plus the model for the ideal society in the Torah makes redistribution of wealth a priority central to the law.
 
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visionary

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I might agree with you, except that individual charity simply doesn't meet the need. Plus the model for the ideal society in the Torah makes redistribution of wealth a priority central to the law.
a priority of the individuals, not the government.
 
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Open Heart

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God wanted "enforced"??
Do you think it was voluntary to leave unharvested the four corners of your field, or to redistribute the land back to the original families in the year of jubiliee? No, it was manditory. Now, who do you think enforced it?

Do you think ANY society can function if their laws are not enforced?

I'm expecting two answers now. Since you didn't answer my question the first time around, i added another question to the list.

Or let's examine it from another angle. You thought that you answered my question "Who enforced the law" with your response question, "God wanted enforced?" But it didn't answer my quetion, as I show with my own response question to your question, "Can any society function if their laws are not enforced?"
 
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visionary

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Do you think it was voluntary to leave unharvested the four corners of your field, or to redistribute the land back to the original families in the year of jubiliee? No, it was manditory. Now, who do you think enforced it?

Do you think ANY society can function if their laws are not enforced?

I'm expecting two answers now. Since you didn't answer my question the first time around, i added another question to the list.

Or let's examine it from another angle. You thought that you answered my question "Who enforced the law" with your response question, "God wanted enforced?" But it didn't answer my question, as I show with my own response question to your question, "Can any society function if their laws are not enforced?"
Not arguing that man enforces that which they think is right, just questioning whether you think God wanted it to be that way.
 
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Open Heart

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Not arguing that man enforces that which they think is right, just questioning whether you think God wanted it to be that way.
God established it that way, so His desires are pretty apparent.

You didn't answer my first question. Given that such things as the radical property/wealth redistribution during the jubilee year were societally mandatory, who do you think enforced it?
 
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visionary

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God established it that way, so His desires are pretty apparent.

You didn't answer my first question. Given that such things as the radical property/wealth redistribution during the jubilee year were societally mandatory, who do you think enforced it?
Conscientious people self imposed pleases God the most.
 
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Open Heart

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Conscientious people self imposed pleases God the most.
But in real life, people often don't do what God wants, and for any society to work, including ancient Israel, compliance must be community wide. Redistribution of wealth only works because everyone participates. So who do you think enforced it?

Here's a scenario. Judah's family has not been so smart. They are the kind that are very present oriented and waste their money on pleasures. They also made some bad business decisions. They went into debt and then couldn't pay it off. Rather than sell Judah or one of his sisters into slavery, they sold off the land to Ezra's family.

Now it is the year of Jubilee and by rights the land must return to Judah's family. But Ezra's family says, "Fat chance. We paid good money for this land. Plus, you guys are irresponsible and don't deserve it."

What do you think will happen?
 
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visionary

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But in real life, people often don't do what God wants, and for any society to work, including ancient Israel, compliance is mandatory community wide. Redistribution of wealth only works because everyone participates. So who do you think enforced it?

Here's a scenario. Judah's family has not been so smart. They are the kind that are very present oriented and waste their money on pleasures. They also made some bad business decisions. They went it debt and then couldn't pay it off. Rather than sell Judah or one of his sisters into slavery, they sold off the land to Ezra's family.

Now it is the year of Jubilee and by rights the land must return to Judah's family. But Ezra's family says, "Fat chance."

What do you think will happen?
Isn't that where the elders at the game came into play?
 
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Open Heart

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Isn't that where the elders at the game came into play?
Exactly. The elders enforced it. The elders were part of the government How exactly they did it scripture didn't say. By the second temple period they had i.e. temple guards. But we don't know exactly how it worked back in the agrarian times. We do know, however, that there were consequences for disobedience.

Now I think we are to emulate this ideal God given society.
 
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pat34lee

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The Salvation Army was marvelous -- the exception that proves the rule.

But what was TYPICAL of evangelicals and fundamentalists was what my uncle did, who ran a downtown mission. Sure he served a soup kitchen, BUT you had to attend a church service to get the food. IOW, the food was simply a manipulation device to get you to hear the gospel.

And is there anything wrong with that?

I would be playing Christian music through
the building at all times too, so they could
listen while eating and sleeping.
 
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pat34lee

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I might agree with you, except that individual charity simply doesn't meet the need. Plus the model for the ideal society in the Torah makes redistribution of wealth a priority central to the law.

I think you are not seeing something here.
There is no redistribution except in certain
circumstances. Part had to do with walled
cities vs rural land. If you lived in a city and
sold your house, you wouldn't get it back
in the Shemitah year. That was for farmers
and rural land owners, so the land would
remain in one family from father to son...

Another thing about the Shemitah which
also applies to charity. If we honor Yahweh
and do what he commands, he will make
sure there is plenty to go around.
Leviticus 25:20-22
 
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Open Heart

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I think you are not seeing something here.
There is no redistribution except in certain
circumstances. Part had to do with walled
cities vs rural land. If you lived in a city and
sold your house, you wouldn't get it back
in the Shemitah year. That was for farmers
and rural land owners, so the land would
remain in one family from father to son...

Another thing about the Shemitah which
also applies to charity. If we honor Yahweh
and do what he commands, he will make
sure there is plenty to go around.
Leviticus 25:20-22
In the days of early Israel, virtually all were farmers. Towns only had a couple hundred to several thousand people usually. But even those in towns, because they were part of families, owned land. Thus absolutely everyone in Israel had a source of income (even the Levites, although indirectly).
 
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Open Heart

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Those who don't want to hear the gospel are
the ones who need it the most. Even Christians.
No excuse. They decide for themselves. We don't live in the dark ages where stuff gets forced on people.
 
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