Why do some 'Christians' believe that Hell is not eternal?

mmksparbud · Mar 26, 2018

RayJeena said:
I also said that Scripture indicates that the day-night
cycle is, itself, temporary. Any thoughts?

Rev_21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

r4.h · Mar 26, 2018

Sanoy said:
Both annihilation and ECT (eternal conscious torment) can be debated from scripture. I think annhilation has a stronger scriptural foundation...but we already have a thread on that for debate.

To me ECT as a punishment is logically inconsistent with a loving God. It is literally the most evil thing you could do to someone for absolutely no purpose.

R C Sproul rightly shows that we dont know just how evil we are, and how very very good and holy God is, therefore eternal punishment seems so very harsh. Those in hell will not rail against God, for they will forever know their just desert.

I personally dont like hell. but we are created in Gods image and therefore eternal. God cannot annihilate us, not because He is unable, but because His attributes of wisdom and love to all beings binds Him by the very things that make Him God.
A holy and just God must make example of all rebellion, and without it heaven would not be kept in check. If Satan had seen hell before pride had entered, it is probable he might never have sinned.
But thats another topic altogether.

mmksparbud · Mar 26, 2018

r4.h said:
R C Sproul rightly shows that we dont know just how evil we are, and how very very good and holy God is, therefore eternal punishment seems so very harsh. Those in hell will not rail against God, for they will forever know their just desert.

I personally dont like hell. but we are created in Gods image and therefore eternal. God cannot annihilate us, not because He is unable, but because His attributes of wisdom and love to all beings binds Him by the very things that make Him God.
A holy and just God must make example of all rebellion, and without it heaven would not be kept in check. If Satan had seen hell before pride had entered, it is probable he might never have sinned.
But thats another topic altogether.

God alone is immortal. Immortality is something that is given to the saved. Never to the lost.

1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Eternal life is the gift of God to the saved. It is not ours by right of birth. Adam and Eve were not created immortal. They were created to be immortal if they had access to the tree of life.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

At the resurrection, we are again given access to it.

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Sanoy · Mar 26, 2018

r4.h said:
R C Sproul rightly shows that we dont know just how evil we are, and how very very good and holy God is, therefore eternal punishment seems so very harsh. Those in hell will not rail against God, for they will forever know their just desert.

I personally dont like hell. but we are created in Gods image and therefore eternal. God cannot annihilate us, not because He is unable, but because His attributes of wisdom and love to all beings binds Him by the very things that make Him God.
A holy and just God must make example of all rebellion, and without it heaven would not be kept in check. If Satan had seen hell before pride had entered, it is probable he might never have sinned.
But thats another topic altogether.

I think that image of God could contain any number of properties or concepts. There is no indication that immortality of the soul is one of those properties. In revelation death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, and that is meant to indicate that those concepts are destroyed. So it is a place of destruction. It also calls it the second death when people are cast into it. The first death being that of the body.

It's not the degree of the punishment that is the conflicting factor. It's the fact that ECT has no purpose. ECT is forever...99999999999million years from now they will still be in torment, even 100x later. For absolutely no purpose at that point. If our justice system tried to preserve a person for a thousand years for torture everyone would reject it as unjust because it's not Justice but Malice. The guy that gave all his money to the poor and never harmed anyone but just fell short is there suffering for eternity right next to the child molester. It doesn't make any sense.

Der Alte · Mar 26, 2018

DavidPT said:
My only concern is what happens to humans cast into the LOF. I couldn't care less what happens to satan when he, too, gets cast into the LOF. My point being, what happens to satan in the LOF, and what happens to humans in the LOF, it is not the same. Obviously satan is not judged at the white throne judgment. He is not also among the humans standing before God, each one being judged according to their works.
So that means there is a judgment that deals with satan's fate, and that there is a judgment that deals with man's fate.
That means Revelation 20:10 is one context, and that Revelation 20:11-15 is another context. Per the former context, point out in that context where it ever calls it the 2nd death. In the latter context, point out in that context where it ever says anyone shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You quoted my post but it does not appear that you even read it. Please explain to my how Rev 20:10 and 20:11-15 can be different contexts?

Der Alte · Mar 26, 2018

David7818 said:
I think all atheists would know to burn young people and children in the lake of fire is wrong. That's a good moral argument.

Right! Let's interpret the Bible based on what God hating atheists might think. How much more of the Bible do you want to let atheists interpret for Christians?

Papa DSNM · Mar 26, 2018

Remember now...John says Revelation was written in signs...representing something...not literal. The torment is not in a literal sense. It means something.
But if our minds are set...we are not reasonable.

Papa DSNM · Mar 26, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

So for eternity, God and the holy angels (and I assume the saved, for we will be with Him) are all sitting on in a newly remade earth, watching billions and billions of creatures being tormented. I do hope they have plenty of hot sauce for that popcorn---sounds like fun.

Are you serious? The same God that punished ancient nations for doing the same things to their children? You think God would sit and watch this for all eternity? If so, please get to know the God of the Bible. You are mistaken.

Der Alte · Mar 26, 2018

Papa DSNM said:
Remember now...John says Revelation was written in signs...representing something...not literal. The torment is not in a literal sense. It means something.
But if our minds are set...we are not reasonable.

So everybody gets to make any symbol mean what they want it to? Maybe some person who decides they alone know what all the symbols mean and gets to tell everyone else. Or we could go with the old rule "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

GUANO · Mar 26, 2018

RayJeena said:
I also said that Scripture indicates that the day-night cycle is, itself, temporary. Any thoughts?

That's symbolic. Prophecy does not concern the physical world, it's talking about the politics of the Kingdom of God... It will not need a King or Priest (Sun, Moon) or Ministers (Stars) to provide the light (spiritual awareness) because we will all be aware. God will be all in all...

GUANO · Mar 26, 2018

Der Alter said:
So everybody gets to make any symbol mean what they want it to? Maybe some person who decides they alone know what all the symbols mean and gets to tell everyone else. Or we could go with the old rule "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

It is the the other prophets who define the symbols. "In the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every word be established..."

There is a unified prophetic language in the Bible...

Isaac Newton gave a good summation...

For understanding the Prophecies, we are, in the first place, to acquaint our-selves with the figurative language of the Prophets. This language is taken from the analogy between the world natural, and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic.

Rajni · Mar 26, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Rev_21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Thank you, mmksparbud.

I was beginning to wonder with all the previous dodging whether
or not this would be addressed.

Since the day/night cycle doesn't last forever, according to
scripture-which-is-always-true, then no suffering said to go
on "day and night" could last forever, either.

Rajni · Mar 26, 2018

RayJeena said:
Since the day/night cycle doesn't last forever, according to
scripture-which-is-always-true, then no suffering said to go
on "day and night" could last forever, either.

From a post of mine back in 2011 which I think was worded
a bit better than my statement above was (I've only had one
cup of coffee so far so my apologies):

What’s intriguing about this verse is the combination of “day and night” and “forever and ever”. Evidently, this event takes place while there is still a day/night cycle in effect. However, Scripture also indicates that the day/night cycle will eventually come to an end (Isaiah 60:19, Revelation 21:23,25, Revelation 22:5), so it could be concluded that anything said to take place while that temporary cycle is established would itself be only finite in duration.

DavidPT · Mar 26, 2018

Der Alter said:
You quoted my post but it does not appear that you even read it. Please explain to my how Rev 20:10 and 20:11-15 can be different contexts?

I read your post and I was only responding to a portion of it, what I had quoted you as saying. You said the LOF is called the 2nd death. I then went on to explain and attempted to show that the judgment concerning satan, and the judgment concerning men, these are not the same judgment. In Revelation 20:11-15, first of all, that involves being resurrected from the dead. satan can't be resurrected from the dead if he has never died. satan can't have part in the 2nd death since that requires having part in the first death first. 2 entirely different contexts then, that being Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:11-15. And since the 2nd death can't apply to satan, neither can the part about being tormented day and night for ever and ever apply to humans cast into the LOF.

Based on all of that, my position is this. satan will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, just as the text indicates. Humans though, it will be the 2nd death for them. IOW they die a 2nd time after having lived twice and having already died once. The way they lived twice is like such. First they were born---first life. Then they died and will be resurrected---2nd life. The way they die twice is like such. After being born they eventually died---first death. Then they are resurrected, judged, then cast into the LOF---the 2nd death. That means they die again after having lived again. This is what Jesus meant by destroying both body and soul in hell. The 2nd death is not being raised to life again via the resurrection. The 2nd death is what happens to them after having lived again, which means they will die yet a 2nd time, but this time for forever.

DavidPT · Mar 26, 2018

RayJeena said:
Thank you, mmksparbud.

I was beginning to wonder with all the previous dodging whether
or not this would be addressed.

Since the day/night cycle doesn't last forever, according to
scripture-which-is-always-true, then no suffering said to go
on "day and night" could last forever, either.

Why do you feel the day/night cycle doesn't last forever? What Scriptures are you basing that on?

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is within eternity context. There can't be anything such as months without day/night cycles, can there?

Rajni · Mar 26, 2018

DavidPT said:
Why do you feel the day/night cycle doesn't last forever? What Scriptures are you basing that on?

One of the verses previously shared:

There will be no more night. They will not need the light
of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will
give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
(Revelation 22:5)

A cycle of day-night can't continue if half the cycle (night) has been
removed.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This verse is very intriguing.

If one accepts the traditional eschatological fare being
served up, there wouldn't be any more healing needed,
because those who are doomed-forever-in-hell (or
annihilated, take your pick) aren't going to be getting any
healing, and those in heaven aren't going to be needing
it.

Yet, here's this Tree for the healing of the nations.
Evidently, there's still something going on necessitating
such a Tree.

This strongly suggests (to me) that there's no Point of No
Return for the "doomed". I conclude that the presence of
this Healing Tree is for those still refusing God's love;
once they've each had enough of keeping their distance,
they are free to avail themselves of this Tree and finally be
restored.

dreadnought · Mar 26, 2018

jovanovic said:
There is no choice in hell and doomsday, this is not in the bible.

There are a lot of things that aren't in the Bible. Did the Lord want us to know everything? Can human beings be trusted with all knowledge?

DavidPT · Mar 26, 2018

RayJeena said:
One of the verses previously shared:

There will be no more night. They will not need the light
of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will
give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
(Revelation 22:5)

A cycle of day-night can't continue if half the cycle (night) has been
removed.

What does the text actually say though? Doesn't it say that it's in the city where there is no more night? The city isn't the entire earth is it? What about outside of the city then, where those living in the nations of the earth would be dwelling?

Plus, in order to not contradict the OT, one has to consider the following before making final determinations about Revelation 22:5.

Psalms 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

The text indicates His name shall endure as long as the sun, and that it indicates His name shall endure forever. In order for the first clause to not contradict the 2nd clause, both have to be meaning forever.

And there are other passages as well, in the OT, that teach the sun will endure forever.

mmksparbud · Mar 26, 2018

Papa DSNM said:
Are you serious? The same God that punished ancient nations for doing the same things to their children? You think God would sit and watch this for all eternity? If so, please get to know the God of the Bible. You are mistaken.

Are you serious??? Did I say that is what I believe? NO! I was being sarcastic! That is what those who believe in an eternally burning hell have God and His angels and the saved doing! The bible says in His and the angels presence and you have to throw the saved in there as well for we will be with Him. That is what they would have to believe and that would get old no matter if it is Satan himself burning. It is they who do not know the God of the bible.--- I thought my sarcasm was obvious!

mmksparbud · Mar 26, 2018

GUANO said:
That's symbolic. Prophecy does not concern the physical world, it's talking about the politics of the Kingdom of God... It will not need a King or Priest (Sun, Moon) or Ministers (Stars) to provide the light (spiritual awareness) because we will all be aware. God will be all in all...

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

That has nothing to do with the politics of the kingdom of God!! God created a real physical world, and He is remaking it, and He is addressing the real physical world here!

Why do some 'Christians' believe that Hell is not eternal?

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

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Lip service isn't really service.

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