Liberal Christians - What Do You Mean?

rjs330 · Mar 21, 2018

Chesterton said:
What I find interesting is that a lot of people don't understand what literature is, and that sometimes literature is literal and sometimes not, and that they don't trust the Apostles and ECF's to have gotten it right.

Quite true! And that's where the disconnect comes in. There are those who don't understand that there are literary methods used in the Bible and don't understand how to see them. What I see far too often from the "liberal" interpretors is they claim it's just a literary method when there is actually no indication it is. The Bible is to be taken literally unless a literary method is obvious in the text.

rjs330 · Mar 21, 2018

tulc said:
Could the problem actually be more along the lines of :

?

Do you think it might be because "the Word of God" isn't actually the book about Jesus but is in reality Jesus Himself? And again, maybe the problem isn't really "denying" all those things but more about simply not believing your understanding of them to be the only correct way to believe?
tulc(just a thought)

One could certainly "misunderstand" the scriptures. But that usually comes from several different methods.

1. Pulling scriptures out of context
2. Failing to take all scripture into account which is basically letting scripture interpret scripture or seeing what all the scripture has to say on a particular subject
3. Inserting personal bias or beliefs into scripture
4. Discounting scriptures that disagree with a personal belief
5. Not understanding that scripture is to be taken literally unless a literary contrivance is obvious such as a metaphor and such.

ViaCrucis · Mar 21, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I'm constantly surprised to see posters on here who are identified as some form of Christian and yet deny basic biblical doctrines and deny the truth of the Scriptures.

If you identify as a Christian and you know that you're "to the left" - you deny Biblical inerrancy, you deny classic orthodox doctrines, etc... - what do you mean when you say: "I'm a Christian"? Why do you identify as a Christian if you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God?

You seem to be conflating several things here:

1. Being liberal.
2. Rejecting orthodox Christian teachings.
3. Denying the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy.

These are three entirely different things.

I'm a Christian, I accept the historic teachings of the Christian faith as laid out in the historic Creeds, and confess that faith explicitly. I don't, however, subscribe to the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy; not because I doubt the credibility and reliability of Holy Scripture, I believe Scripture is credible, reliable, holy, and divinely inspired--it is the written word of God. One does not need to believe in inerrancy to believe in the inspiration and reliability of Scripture.

Further, I would also identify as "liberal", at least in the context of American national politics. I am left-of-center because I adhere to certain political positions that are usually identified as "left", these positions are positions I hold because I believe they are consistent with the ethics and teachings of Scripture and the Christian Church. I am not "liberal" in spite of being a Christian, I am "liberal" because I'm a Christian. It was Scripture and studying the teachings and theology of historic, orthodox Christianity that moved me to the left, I was raised quite conservative; but I found that I could not in good conscience be both conservative and Christian, it would have required entirely too much cognitive dissonance to do so. There are many who are Christian and conservative, and good for them, but as for me, I had to abide by conscience and the teachings of the faith--and that pushed me from right to left on many things.

What I mean when I say "I'm a Christian" is this:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was made flesh by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the Age to Come. Amen.

-CryptoLutheran

rjs330 · Mar 21, 2018

Albion said:
Yes, but it can also be said that it is interesting that fundamentalists, etc. will staunchly affirm a literal interpretation of scripture but insist that when Jesus took bread, showed it to his disciples, and said "This is my body"...he didn't mean that literally, you know, but he was only using a figure of speech or an analogy.

You make a good point, but also show the problem. Which is failing to take all scripture into account. Rather than start a different debate in this thread, I won't to talk about this particular issue here. But I will refer you to what Paul taught.

Albion said:
Yes, but it can also be said that it is interesting that fundamentalists, etc. will staunchly affirm a literal interpretation of scripture but insist that when Jesus took bread, showed it to his disciples, and said "This is my body"...he didn't mean that literally, you know, but he was only using a figure of speech or an analogy.

Rather than debate that particular idea here off topic, I would refer you to I Corinthians 10. Also take a look at all the scriptures where Christ refers to bread and life. It will give you insight to the idea of spritual vs physical.

rjs330 · Mar 21, 2018

Arcangl86 said:
I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. That's Jesus. AS for words of God, I do believe if we study the Bible we can learn what God intends for us. But the Bible was never meant to be treated as a dictation from God. And through my study of the Bible, I find too many things that seem to contradict each other. I rather believe those contradictions are the results of earnest but flawed people best trying to understood what God was telling them then they being intentional.

There are not any real contradictions in the Bible. If you read to understand the whole truth you will find the Bible is very good at clarifying itself.

Ματθαίος · Mar 21, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I'm constantly surprised to see posters on here who are identified as some form of Christian and yet deny basic biblical doctrines and deny the truth of the Scriptures.

If you identify as a Christian and you know that you're "to the left" - you deny Biblical inerrancy, you deny classic orthodox doctrines, etc... - what do you mean when you say: "I'm a Christian"? Why do you identify as a Christian if you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God?

I think, it's a futile question. Everybody has their own idea of what Christianity is.

rjs330 · Mar 21, 2018

tulc said:
And I have no problem with people who believe the way you do, but can we disagree about what "the Word of God" is and still acknowledge each other as being Christians who want to serve the Lord as much as we can? See, that's where my trouble starts: it's when people make the claim that the ONLY way to understand Scripture and who God is is the way they understand them. I find that idea tends to lead some very...unpleasant situations for a lot of people.

I get that and let me also explain: I read and cherish my Bible every day, I think it represents hundreds of years of different people trying their best to serve and follow the Lord and as such it's a very important thing to understand and read, I do not however see it as the be all and end all of our relationship with God. I don't dismiss the Bible, I simply want it to be seen for what it is: it's a map TO the something I'm seeking, it's not WHAT I'm seeking. To me, too many people settle for the map when there's so much more of the "Word of God" out there.
tulc(has a lot of fun in these sorts of conversations!)

There's some real truth to what you say. The Bible is scripture, which was written to instruct us. Jesus is the Word who lives within in us by the Holy Spirit which gives us the power to live and abide by the instructions of the written scripture.

Do we HAVE to have the scripture to have Christ? No. There have been millions of Christians who have believed without having access to scripture. Whoever, for those of us who do we should be studying it and learning from it on how God expects us to live.

Tree of Life · Mar 21, 2018

Arcangl86 said:
I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. That's Jesus. AS for words of God, I do believe if we study the Bible we can learn what God intends for us. But the Bible was never meant to be treated as a dictation from God. And through my study of the Bible, I find too many things that seem to contradict each other. I rather believe those contradictions are the results of earnest but flawed people best trying to understood what God was telling them then they being intentional.

If the Bible is not God's word then why do you think it's valuable. Plenty of earnest and well meaning people have written religious books. What's special about the Bible?

Tree of Life · Mar 21, 2018

Arcangl86 said:
I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. That's Jesus. AS for words of God, I do believe if we study the Bible we can learn what God intends for us. But the Bible was never meant to be treated as a dictation from God. And through my study of the Bible, I find too many things that seem to contradict each other. I rather believe those contradictions are the results of earnest but flawed people best trying to understood what God was telling them then they being intentional.

Also, why do you believe that Jesus is the word of God? This is an idea found in the Bible - which according to you is the word of men.

Shempster · Mar 21, 2018

rjs330 said:
One could certainly "misunderstand" the scriptures. But that usually comes from several different methods.

3. Inserting personal bias or beliefs into scripture

Virtually everyone does this.

4. Discounting scriptures that disagree with a personal belief

Or is it discount scriptures we understand to defy our personal interpretations? What if we simply misunderstand it?

Tree of Life · Mar 21, 2018

tulc said:
Do you think it might be because "the Word of God" isn't actually the book about Jesus but is in reality Jesus Himself? And again, maybe the problem isn't really "denying" all those things but more about simply not believing your understanding of them to be the only correct way to believe?
tulc(just a thought)

Why do you believe that Jesus is the word of God? This is an idea found in the Bible. How do you know anything about Jesus? Virtually all the information we have about him is found in the Bible. How do you know this information is reliable?

Tree of Life · Mar 21, 2018

Zoii said:
I certainly dont believe in the literal translation. To do that i would have to say science knows nothing whilst simultaneously posting it through my computer onto the internet whilst not recognising the irony in that.

I dont believe in the literal translations where it is exposed to contradictions - eg Thou shalt not kill - followed by countless examples of commissioning genocides and the killing of innocent women and children.

I dont hold to literal translations when I know that Mosaic laws are not accepted within our society or are simply contradicted in other parts of the bible.

I dont hold to translations that require submission of women.

lastly you seem to be saying if your christian you cannot be leftward politically. Thats an odd position - Id have thought Jesus was a great leftward thinker in a sea of conservatism.

It sounds to me like you believe in yourself. Does your Jesus ever disagree with anything you say or think? If not, could it be that you actually worship yourself rather than the living God?

Phil 1:21 · Mar 21, 2018

Arcangl86 said:
But the Bible was never meant to be treated as a dictation from God.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

Tree of Life · Mar 21, 2018

hedrick said:
Huh? I call myself a Christian because I'm a follower of Jesus. Luke tell us (Luke 1:1-3) that he acted like any historian: gathering evidence. Paul distinguishes between his own opinion and Jesus' teachings that had been handed down to him. (1 Cor 7:12). These were good guys doing their best to tell us what they knew about Jesus. But they were still human, with normal human limitations, depending upon human witnesses. I don't see any reason why that makes me a non-Christian. Our faith is in Christ, not the Bible.

How do you know what you know about Jesus? How do you know that what you know is reliable? Does following Jesus simply mean looking to him as a great moral example?

Halbhh · Mar 21, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I'm constantly surprised to see posters on here who are identified as some form of Christian and yet deny basic biblical doctrines and deny the truth of the Scriptures.

If you identify as a Christian and you know that you're "to the left" - you deny Biblical inerrancy, you deny classic orthodox doctrines, etc... - what do you mean when you say: "I'm a Christian"? Why do you identify as a Christian if you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God?

Proverbs 4:27 Do not turn to the right or the left; keep your foot from evil.

JackRT · Mar 21, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
I am not "liberal" in spite of being a Christian, I am "liberal" because I'm a Christian. It was Scripture and studying the teachings and theology of historic, orthodox Christianity that moved me to the left, I was raised quite conservative; but I found that I could not in good conscience be both conservative and Christian, it would have required entirely too much cognitive dissonance to do so.

Outstanding! Me too!

Tree of Life · Mar 21, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
You seem to be conflating several things here:

1. Being liberal.
2. Rejecting orthodox Christian teachings.
3. Denying the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy.

These are three entirely different things.

I'm a Christian, I accept the historic teachings of the Christian faith as laid out in the historic Creeds, and confess that faith explicitly. I don't, however, subscribe to the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy; not because I doubt the credibility and reliability of Holy Scripture, I believe Scripture is credible, reliable, holy, and divinely inspired--it is the written word of God. One does not need to believe in inerrancy to believe in the inspiration and reliability of Scripture.

Further, I would also identify as "liberal", at least in the context of American national politics. I am left-of-center because I adhere to certain political positions that are usually identified as "left", these positions are positions I hold because I believe they are consistent with the ethics and teachings of Scripture and the Christian Church. I am not "liberal" in spite of being a Christian, I am "liberal" because I'm a Christian. It was Scripture and studying the teachings and theology of historic, orthodox Christianity that moved me to the left, I was raised quite conservative; but I found that I could not in good conscience be both conservative and Christian, it would have required entirely too much cognitive dissonance to do so. There are many who are Christian and conservative, and good for them, but as for me, I had to abide by conscience and the teachings of the faith--and that pushed me from right to left on many things.

What I mean when I say "I'm a Christian" is this:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was made flesh by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the Age to Come. Amen.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm talking about theological liberalism, not political liberalism.

In the creed you confess that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets. But you also say that the Bible is not without error. Do you believe the Holy Spirit spoke erroneously?

hedrick · Mar 21, 2018

Tree of Life said:
If the Bible is not God's word then why do you think it's valuable. Plenty of earnest and well meaning people have written religious books. What's special about the Bible?

What's special is that it's the only primary source we have for Jesus' life and teaching. In no other area to we demand that sources of information have to be perfect to be useful. We learn things from our parents and schools; we decide who to marry; we convict people of murder. In none of these cases do we have inerrant data, just data that's good enough to make an informed decision.

Tree of Life · Mar 21, 2018

hedrick said:
What's special is that it's the only primary source we have for Jesus' life and teaching. In no other area to we demand that sources of information have to be perfect to be useful. We learn things from our parents and schools; we decide who to marry; we convict people of murder. In none of these cases do we have inerrant data, just data that's good enough to make an informed decision.

This sounds like it's approaching the "canon within the canon" problem. So you think the Bible has a lot of good stuff in it - namely the Jesus stuff. But it's also got errors in it. How do you decide what in the Bible is correct and what should be discarded?

hedrick · Mar 21, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I'm talking about theological liberalism, not political liberalism.

In the creed you confess that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets. But you also say that the Bible is not without error. Do you believe the Holy Spirit spoke erroneously?

But you're assuming that the whole Bible is alike. In fact it's not. It has not just the prophets words, but everything from love poetry to history. Sure, the prophets said they were directly inspired by God. But Paul wasn't a prophet, nor were the authors of historical material.

Furthermore, the church's judgement on authorship wasn't inerrant either. While I'm convinced that the things we need were all included, I think they erred on the side of inclusion. That's not a bad thing, but I certain don't consider the Pastoral Epistles' to have the same authority as the undisputed letters.

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