1 John 1:8

justbyfaith said:

@Jason0047, is it your contention that the Lord wipes the slate clean at our conversion but all subsequent sins are not forgiven?

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#1. Jesus forgives the sins of most all men who has ever existed provisionally in a legal sense (Sort of like me writing a check to help pay for somebody's debt).

#2. When a person receives Jesus as their Savior and believes that He has died and has risen on their behalf, they are forgiven of their past sins personally (Sort of like if they took my check and paid off their creditors or those they were in debt with).

#3. When a person walks faithfully in Jesus, they are continuing to abide in the cleansing blood of Jesus. Hence why 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. We have to obey Jesus if we desire to have the blood (or forgiveness) personally applied to our lives. If we sin, then we are placing ourselves back into debt again and need to seek out forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ again.

Only past sins can be personally forgiven within our lives. Upcoming sins cannot personally be forgiven in our lives before they happen because we have not committed them yet. We have to deal with sin in real time with our Lord Jesus Christ because we are linear beings.

For how can names be blotted out of the book of life (See Revelation 3:5) if Jesus personally applied forgiveness of all sin for every believer for all time?

Danthemailman said:

So you teach sinless perfection...

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1. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
   
2. GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).
   
3. Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).
4. We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).
   
5. Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).
6. Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
7. David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).
8. Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).
9. Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).
   
10. Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

And here are more verses within the following thread (if the above is not good enough for you):

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

justbyfaith said:

What does it say in 1 John 3:8-9 KJV?

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Why are you using John against himself?

bugkiller

justbyfaith said:

we have received the adoption (Galatians 4:5-6), which is the redemption of our body (Romans 8:23).

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Our body is never redeemed.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

Why are you using John against himself?

bugkiller

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You said, I quote,


I believe you are confusing Paul's reference to the "Law" with being "all law" when in reality he was talking about the "Old Law." This is evident if you were to see that he was condemning "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Romans 3:1, Galatians 5:2). Now, while it is true that we are not under the Old Law (as a whole or package deal), the Scriptures actually do teach that you do need to be faithful and or be obedient in order to be saved (i.e. We have to obey those commands in the New Testament as a part of the faith). How so? Well, it is written,

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

bugkiller said:

Our body is never redeemed.

bugkiller

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Well, this is the problem with believing in Eternal Security. Verses that actually do say something at face value plainly have to either mean something else or they are simply ignored.

Romans 8:23 says,
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Eternal Security proponents also disregard words in Scripture like,

Fear,
everyone,
faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone,
if you will enter into life, keep the commandments, etc.

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

justbyfaith said:

@Jason0047, is it your contention that the Lord wipes the slate clean at our conversion but all subsequent sins are not forgiven?

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When a person first comes to Christ and they ask Jesus to forgive them of their sin, they are forgiven of all their past old sin (Romans 10:13) (2 Peter 1:9). Any sins committed after they accept Christ needs to be confessed to Jesus for continual forgiveness (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

I believe that Christ bore (or hides) the majority of the world's sins upon his body and that it is His blood that cleanses only the believer who comes to Him in faith. If a person rejects Christ, then the sins that Christ retained in his body will then be applied back to them and His blood will not cleanse them. Only the church was purchased with His blood.

Jesus only takes away the sins of the world by hiding them in his body. From that point, it is up to the individual to desire to have Christ's blood cleanse them of their sin or not. This is sort of like when the sins of the Israelites were transferred to the head of a goat (See Leviticus 16:21).

#1. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus takes on the sins of the entire world by drinking of the cup (from the Father) that had all our sins in it (Luke 22:42).

#2. Isaiah 53:5 alludes to how Jesus is wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his whip marks we are healed. This is talking about how Christ enduring of suffering was a means of healing that would lead to His death, which would be our salvation (complete recovery).

#3. Jesus dies upon the cross holding the majority of all the sins of the world in his body and pays for the punishment of sin (1 Peter 2:24).

#4. Jesus raises from the dead 3 days later and ascends to the Father shortly thereafter (after telling Mary not to touch Him). Jesus then enters the temple by His blood to be our Heavenly High Priest and Mediator between God the Father and man (Hebrews 10:19) (Hebrews 9:24-28).

#5. It is only in receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior and being faithful to Him whereby His blood can cleanse a person. Hence, the phrase, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18).

justbyfaith said:

So Jesus didn't die to save us from our sins? Just so we could get off scott-free without any change of life?

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Jesus died to save us from our sins. That doesn't mean we have sinless perfection now.

John 1:8-10 just means that if we admit that we're sinners and so confess our sins, God will forgive and purify us, or justify us. He will make us righteous as He always intended us to be. If we don't admit our sins, He can't work with us.

justbyfaith said:

@Radagast, why must we wait until after we're dead? I find that there are scriptures that tell us we don't have to wait.

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I find that people who claim to be sinless now are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them, as 1 John 1:8 says.

Radagast said:

I find that people who claim to be sinless now are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them, as 1 John 1:8 says.

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Not everyone who claims to be Christian is always a Christian (regardless of what doctrine they hold to). For faith is more than just a belief alone. In fact, Jesus said narrow is the way and He said that when He returns will He find faith on the Earth? Remember, Noah and his family were the only ones spared. They were only 8 people out of the entire world. Granted, I think it will be more than that who will be saved in the end, but the point here is that it will be few who will have it right with the Lord and not many. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren not to think like the false gnostics believed in thinking they could sin and still be saved (as if sin did not exist for them when they did sin). This is exactly what OSAS proponents believe. They believe Jesus forgave all their present and future sin with His blood and yet 1 John 1:7 says we have to walk in the light of Christ in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. 1 John 1:9 says we have to confess our sins in order to be forgiven. This makes sense because Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin will have mercy. Also, if 1 John 1:8 means as you say it does (Which it doesn't), then 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:7-10 would be lying or a contradiction.

Radagast said:

I find that people who claim to be sinless now are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them, as 1 John 1:8 says.

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Also, can you stop sinning (be sinless) for like 5 minutes? How about an hour? How about one day? Could you like maybe go into a forest camping for a few days with just a Bible and focus on just reading the Word and praying to God? Sure you can. You don't have to sin. 1 John 1:8 is a warning against thinking that one who believes that sin is an illusion (like Christian Scientists believe) and or sin does not exist for them in regards to their salvation (Because Jesus forgave it all, including: present, and future sin - like the OSAS proponent believes). So if anything, 1 John 1:8 is a warning against what you believe. Unless of course you can explain 1 John 1:7, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:3-4, and 1 John 3:7-10.

Jason0047 said:

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren not to think like the false gnostics believed in thinking they could sin and still be saved

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Somehow you manage to interpret 1 John 1:8 as saying the complete opposite of what it does say.

Radagast said:

Somehow you manage to interpret 1 John 1:8 as saying the complete opposite of what it does say.

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A person can read passages in Scripture from various different perspectives (and sound correct at first glance). However, your view or perspective on the reading) of 1 John 1:8 has to ignore the context in order to make it work though, like: 1 John 1:7, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:7-10, 1 John 3:15.

Take for example 1 John 2:4. It says,

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

So a person who does not keep the Lord’s commandments and says he knows Him is a liar and the truth is not in them. So it looks likes the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is false.

What is 1 John 1:8 saying then?

I will add a commentary within the verse to help you understand.

“If we say that we have no sin [as if to say sin does not exist for us when we do happen to sin on rare occasion in our early walk with God], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

The false Gnostics thought sin did not exist for them when they did sin. Sin was an illusion to them. It did not exist for them.

1 John 1:10 is saying if we have not sinned in the past. As far as I know, no “Conditional Salvationist” or “Eternal Security Proponent” believes they have never sinned as a part of their old life. So 1 John 1:8 is taking about the false gnostic belief as a warning to the brethren. It is declaring in the present tense that a believer has no sin if they do happen to sin.

Radagast said:

I find that people who claim to be sinless now are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them, as 1 John 1:8 says.

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Also, can you be sinless or “not sin” for 5 minutes? How about an hour? How about a week? Could you not go out into a forest camping and just focus on prayer and the Bible? In other words, it is a lie to say that we will always sin or that we are constantly in sin every waking moment of every day.

John tells us to “sin not” (1 John 2:1), but apparently you think he meant something else.

1 John 3:10 says he that does not righteousness is not of God. Yet, you want me to believe otherwise based on a popular faulty interpretation on 1 John 1:8.