If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

corinth77777 said:

is that referring to me...?if So what should I edit?

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No! LOL I'm just referring to the last thing God told me to do! LOL

corinth77777 said:

If one is not convicted then it is not a sin?....since the consequence of sin would be seperation?
I believe for sin to be sin there would have to be a cause and effect relationship. If there was no effect then there was no cause.

My thoughts..but surely not a teacher...consult the word and Holy Spirit...

Peace and blessing to you!

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Right. The Holy Spirit works through your conscience where His laws are written. The goal then is to go to bed each night with a clear conscience.

And by "His laws" I am not referring to the Old Covenant, the Ten Commandments. I am referring to faith, trust, adoration and servitude to Jesus Christ, and loving your fellow man. 1 John 3:23

corinth77777 said:

If one is not convicted then it is not a sin?....since the consequence of sin would be seperation?
I believe for sin to be sin there would have to be a cause and effect relationship. If there was no effect then there was no cause.

My thoughts..but surely not a teacher...consult the word and Holy Spirit...

Peace and blessing to you!

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I agree. The whole point is that our sin is revealed to us so that we can repent it that it is not able to mature into separation from God. That finish of death that James 1:15 speaks about is diverted by repentance.

Surely our heavenly Father will not allow the child he loves to keep in ignorance toying with what can harm that child. If we see our child doing harmful things we jump quickly to warn them of the danger. Certainly our God does no less.

aiki said:

No one is ever saved by dint of their good living; no one ever comes anywhere close to earning their salvation. Redemption, reconciliation with God, is offered as a divine gift to us, entirely apart from one's good - or bad - deeds. (Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5, 6) When one accepts by faith this gift, one is justified before God (Ro. 3:20-26) and "accepted in the Beloved" who is Christ. (Eph. 1:6) Every genuine, born-again believer, then, is in Christ (Ro. 8:1; 9-14; 1 Cor. 1:2; 30; 2 Cor. 5:17-19), clothed in his perfect and unchanging righteousness, and thus made eternally acceptable to God. This is the only way we can be in relationship with our Holy God. We are, in and of ourselves, too "prone to wander," too blind to our own sin, too disposed to wickedness. If we trust in any measure in ourselves to be or to remain saved, we are trusting in a rotted rope, a poisoned cup, a traitorous ally.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 ...Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:24-27
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

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I sympathize that the use of the word, "law", is often ambiguous in the NT.

It sometimes means very specifically the written letter of law that is the Old Law Covenant. Other times it mean s God's spiritual law which is written on the tablets of our hearts so that we always have it with us to obey.

In our hearts we can obey it completely. In a written code of letters we obey it mechanically and can even obey it differently one time over another because we are not really fully appreciating it and thus interpreting slightly different each time we return to that line in the hand-written code.

justbyfaith said:

1 John 3:9 says very plainly, Whosoever is born of God (saved by grace) doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Consider the statement, "I am a sinner saved by grace" in light of the ten commandments.

You might be saying that:

1. I am unfaithful to God, and saved by grace.

2. I am an idol-maker and worshipper, and saved by grace.

3. I take the name of the LORD in vain, and am guiltless (saved by grace).

4. I violate the sabbath, and am saved by grace.

5. I dishonour my father and mother, and am saved by grace.

6. I am an adulterer, and saved by grace.

7. I am a thief, and saved by grace.

8. I am a murderer, and saved by grace.

9. I am a liar, and lie with the intent of hurting my neighbor, and am saved by grace.

10. I am covetous, and saved by grace.

Some of these things have specific statements in the New Testament that if you do such things you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15 says, This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

So if you are going to call yourself a sinner saved by grace, go the whole way and call yourself the CHIEF OF SINNERS.

And realize also that Paul was referring to his past in context (1 Timothy 1:13), though he used the word "am" in the present tense in 1 Timothy 1:15. He said that he was currently the chief of sinners because he was FORMERLY a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious. So if I call myself the chief of sinners, it should be in the same sense that an alcoholic who has been clean and sober for 35 years still calls himself an alcoholic.

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Hypocrisy is a sin too, and the chief sin of the super religious pharisees.

Buzz_B said:

Can we be saved apart from Christ? No.

Our communion with Christ is what saves us. But if we do not listen to Christ and do as he tells us to do, then do we really have communion with him? Again, no.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

1 Corinthians 10:21 "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."

Now notice the following:

1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Do you really understand what that "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified" means? If you think it only means you were dipped in Christ's blood you do not understand. The dipping in Christ's blood does the following: Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.."

From there we go through the washing described, here:

Ephesians 5:26-27 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

God is holy and what you are saying amounts to saying that he will accept us blemished by sin. He will not do that for he cannot because he is holy. And we must be holy as he is holy, else we cannot claim to be fulfilling our image of God as we were created to do.

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Maybe you missunderstand where I am coming from. I am not saying we should deliberately sin. We are to obey the word of God. The problem with saying "all my sins are past.." is just not realistic, nor is it supported by God's word. We all have sin to some degree. We will always have more that can be done spiritually speaking, and we often stumble as we move toward it. But it is communion with God that brings change.

You are not wrong with what you say, but the problem that I am trying to address is that it is incorrect doctrine to say a person is not saved purely by grace. They are. But the sloppy christian, who takes grace for granted, will probably fall away from grace with time. So we must fear, and live out our salvation with reverence. But it is still a salvation of grace, not works.

As the bible says "it is by grace so it can be SURE to all seed", grace brings assurance, works, bring fear.

FutureAndAHope said:

Maybe you missunderstand where I am coming from. I am not saying we should deliberately sin. We are to obey the word of God. The problem with saying "all my sins are past.." is just not realistic, nor is it supported by God's word. We all have sin to some degree. We will always have more that can be done spiritually speaking, and we often stumble as we move toward it. But it is communion with God that brings change.

You are not wrong with what you say, but the problem that I am trying to address is that it is incorrect doctrine to say a person is not saved purely by grace. They are. But the sloppy christian, who takes grace for granted, will probably fall away from grace with time. So we must fear, and live out our salvation with reverence. But it is still a salvation of grace, not works.

As the bible says "it is by grace so it can be SURE to all seed", grace brings assurance, works, bring fear.

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I agree that Romans 3:25 is not saying that all of our sins are past. That false interpretation of that verse is in fact what I am arguing against. For many do pervert it just as you said.

When it comes to issues like whether or not a person is or is not saved purely by grace alone, we get into ridiculous debating of perspectives which are true from their own angle of view but most of us are unwilling to let go of our own angle of view long enough to really look at it from any other angle of view.

These subject are like diamonds cut with many surfaces each of which add to the over-all sparkle of truth. Turn the diamond one way and we observe certain angles which reveal cut surfaces. Turn the diamond another way and we see that we did not see all the surfaces there was to understand about the subject, for we find other angles reveal different but complimentary surfaces.

I just finished stating this, which applies, in another thread:

"I should add that our missed understandings are the result of tiny little things we have failed to understand, the combination of which causes us to ratify other larger wrong conclusions as though they are valid when they are not. For that reason it takes a good deal of humble work at learning to see even with the help of the holy spirit.

For example, I can show many places in the Scriptures which tell us that men harden their own hearts and cause themselves to be blind. Conversely, I can show you many places which say that God hardened the hearts of a certain man or groups of men. How can both be true? They can both be true, and it takes humility on our part to learn to see how so. But we cannot exercise that humility while insisting it is all one or the other. Would we rather leave the appearance that the Bible contradicts itself untouched and laying there waiting to confuse others or would we rather find out what the answer to that seeming dilemma is? When we do look for the answer we find that the appearance of contradiction is a mere illusion caused of not having all of the details. And then we are positioned to be able to explain it for the benefit of others, a thing God wants us to do.

If we pridefully insist that we know that God says he blinds men, then that is all we are willing to see. Who then is it that is blinding us from seeing that both can be true, that men do harden and blind their own hearts and that God also does harden and blind some men. It is we that blind ourselves to seeing that through our own pride be unwilling to look past what we believe so as to broaden our understanding. It is not God's nor the Bible's fault for all the information is there for us to do so anytime we become willing to do so.

Why not loosen our grip upon having to be so right in ourselves and free ourselves to look beyond what we think we know. We have nothing to lose and much to gain by doing so."

Edit: I should have spoken more about what Romans 3:25 is really telling us. It is telling us that Christ died to give us a clean slate from our having sinned in our past through our ignorance. That clean slate gives us that "good Conscience", which despite all of this hype about grace alone saving us Peter says is what saves us.

1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.."

Interestingly, not one single verse in the Scriptures says that grace saves us and you cannot show one. It does say that faith saves us and it does say that the answer of a good conscience saves us, but nowhere does it say that grace saves us. However, we know that we would not be saved but for God's grace toward us. Grace is God's goodness as stated at Romans 2:4 and Romans 11:22.

Grace is therefore the sum total of God's loving kindness and compassion, his goodness which moves him to help us so that if we cooperate with him we may indeed be saved.

FutureAndAHope said:

Maybe you missunderstand where I am coming from. I am not saying we should deliberately sin. We are to obey the word of God. The problem with saying "all my sins are past.." is just not realistic, nor is it supported by God's word. We all have sin to some degree. We will always have more that can be done spiritually speaking, and we often stumble as we move toward it. But it is communion with God that brings change.

You are not wrong with what you say, but the problem that I am trying to address is that it is incorrect doctrine to say a person is not saved purely by grace. They are. But the sloppy christian, who takes grace for granted, will probably fall away from grace with time. So we must fear, and live out our salvation with reverence. But it is still a salvation of grace, not works.

As the bible says "it is by grace so it can be SURE to all seed", grace brings assurance, works, bring fear.

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The meaning of "grace" is the problem. It is much easier to understand the gospel when "grace" is interpreted the way the apostles meant it. If Luther had understood the true meaning of grace, he wouldn't have started the heresy of "make your sins strong, but make your faith in Christ stronger! Nor would he have said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." Luther's understanding is what Paul spoke against - "sin so unmerited favor may abound."

If grace was ever interpreted as "unmerited favor" instead of "favor" it is what happened when Christ died for our sins while we were yet sinners. However, when we repented and we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gift of grace became the power of God.

Acts 4:33 shows the Semitic style of writing of the apostles. This is an example of parallelism. Saying the same thing in two different ways. One explains the other. In this case, grace is power. "And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Now go back and re-read the scriptures you posted, and substitute power for the word grace to clarify the true meaning of the Word.

This power of God is why we are dead to sin - Romans 6:2
It is why we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit - Romans 8:9
It is why a Christian cannot commit willful sin. 1 John 3:9

We have the power of the living God residing in us.

1stcenturylady said:

The meaning of "grace" is the problem. It is much easier to understand the gospel when "grace" is interpreted the way the apostles meant it. If Luther had understood the true meaning of grace, he wouldn't have started the heresy of "make your sins strong, but make your faith in Christ stronger! Nor would he have said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." Luther's understanding is what Paul spoke against - "sin so unmerited favor may abound."

If grace was ever interpreted as "unmerited favor" instead of "favor" it is what happened when Christ died for our sins while we were yet sinners. However, when we repented and we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gift of grace became the power of God.

Acts 4:33 shows the Semitic style of writing of the apostles. This is an example of parallelism. Saying the same thing in two different ways. One explains the other. In this case, grace is power. "And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Now go back and re-read the scriptures you posted, and substitute power for the word grace to clarify the true meaning of the Word.

This power of God is why we are dead to sin - Romans 6:2
It is why we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit - Romans 8:9
It is why a Christian cannot commit willful sin. 1 John 3:9

We have the power of the living God residing in us.

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You began well.

But you sure did go south after that beautifully spoken first paragraph.

I edited something into the end of my post 147 which should help with the subject of God's grace.

Buzz_B said:

You began well.

But you sure did go south after that beautifully spoken first paragraph.

I edited something into the end of my post 147 which should help with the subject of God's grace.

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You'll have to be more specific. I read your edit, and don't disagree. So what did you see that went "south"? I want to know how to make my beliefs clearer.

justbyfaith said:

Consider Romans 5:5 and Ephesians 3:16-21 as concerning whether the infinite love of God can dwell in our hearts so that we live according to it. Then consider also Romans 8:4 and Romans 13:8-10. Then let your mind be renewed in your understanding of Matthew 5:48 and 2 Corinthians 13:9-11 and other passages on Christian perfection (such as Hebrews 10:10,14 KJV).

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However, Hebrews 10:10, 14 is one passage which many interpret to mean that all which was necessary for righteousness was for Christ to die, as if there is nothing else for them to do to have that sanctification. (The false idea that it was all accomplished on the cross, which if it were true Jesus would not have said, "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." The "it is finished", twisting which they twist as meaning nothing left to do. Well, Jesus told us plainly that there is much yet left to do.)


All it means is that the door for our sanctification was opened once for all time rather than having to make repeated animal sacrifices to appease God. That is why verse 12 says, " But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."

But that is also why, the following:

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

And the following is the result to them:

Hebrews 6:7 "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

STOP and THINK

Paul told us all that he was once alive before the Law:

Romans 7:9 “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”

DO WE NOT HAVE SENSE ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT PAUL WAS BORN UNDER THE OLD LAW COVENANT? AND THAT PAUL WAS HIMSELF NEVER ALIVE BEFORE THE LAW?

STOP and THINK

PAUL WAS QUITE OBVIOUSLY SPEAKING OF HIMSELF AS REPRESENTITIVE OF MANKIND'S START AFTER ADAM'S SIN BUT BEFORE THAT OLD LAW COVENANT.

Paul was doing just as he said he had began doing clear back at Romans 6:19a “I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: ….”

SO LET US CONSIDER WHAT HE SAID:

It was merciful of God to not force enlightenment of sin upon mankind while they were unequipped to fight the forces of evil which Adam's sin had opened the door for the devil to unleash upon mankind. Because that way God could mitigate their ignorance of what they were doing as grounds to justify showing the mercy of his grace toward us on the basis of our faith. And our works most certainly did not merit that favor nor could our works have because we were born to the ignorance caused of sin's deceiving us. Yet even then they could sin in certain ways that there was no excuse for, not even ignorance, as shown in Romans chapter 1.

We need no other explanation of why it is by grace and not by any works which we had or could have done before gaining that favor.

AND YET THIS DOES ALSO APPLY TO PAUL. HOW SO?

That is why when one is zealous with the desire to please God as Paul was from youth on up, but also ignorant as Paul was through no fault of deliberate offense, they are able to be forgiven as God forgave Paul.

BUT WHAT IF PAUL HAD CHOSEN TO DELIBERATELY ARGUE AND FIGHT AGAINST THE REVELATION OF GRACE SHOWN TOWARD HIM OF JESUS WHILE HE WAS ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS? SUDDENLY HIS IGNORANCE WOULD HAVE CHAGED TO WILLING DEFIANCE AND SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE BASIS FOR FORGIVENESS WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST TO HIM.

NOW READ AND UNSERSTAND:

Acts 17:30-31 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

justbyfaith said:

Matthew 7:21-23 tells us that iniquity in men's hearts is the reason why Jesus will say to many, Depart from me for I never knew you! In John 8:24 if we don't believe Jesus is the great I AM, we will die in our sins. If we cannot be delivered from the power of sin I may as well become a Jehovah's Witness, I will die in my sins anyway!

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That is another common falsehood born of the battles of ignorance of this subject we are discussing.

Jehovah's Witnesses by no means believe in being able to work their way to righteousness. They have gotten branded that way for saying many of the same things we ourselves have spoken in this thread. And it was primarily OSAS believers that did that branding of them.

I submit for your consideration that all these pet names are not the practicing of religion but human worldly politics.

Sadducee, Pharisee, OSAS Believer, Southern Baptist, and you name it, are all but worldly ways of dividing us away from each other that we can feel superior to others and not put up with one another in love realizing that Christ died for all.

corinth77777 said:

Therefore the famous saying: We are saved by Faith alone. Meaning, if there was a fire at the high tower and the only way to survive would be the slide. The slide is what would save alone.

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This misunderstands your condition before you were saved. The apostle Paul's description of every lost person in Ephesians 2:1-3 makes it clear that no one has the capacity to "get on the slide." A lost man who is "dead in trespasses and sins" cannot act to save himself. He is dead, a spiritual corpse, bound under the power of the devil, the world and his own fleshly impulses and thus without the ability to do anything to save himself. And so we read in Scripture that it is God who draws men to Christ (John 6:44); it is God who convicts men of their sin (John 16:8); it is God who gives men repentance (2 Timothy 2:25); and it is God who saves (Titus 3:5-6). Our salvation - and our consequent life as His children - is all God's doing.

Also, we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8; John 3:16; Romans 3:22)

corinth77777 said:

So we find that while there is no earning Faith or deliverence there still is effort and action on our part. For if we fail to get on the slide to be connected we are incapable of sliding down that we might be delivered.

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See my comments above.

corinth77777 said:

Whose faith or faithfulness are we saved by?

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God has given to every man a "measure of faith." (Romans 12:3) It is by this faith, exercised in the Saviour, Jesus Christ, by which we obtain salvation.

corinth77777 said:

And is this referring to initial salvation or experimental salvation, our journey here. What does 1 Peter 3:20,21 and so have to say?

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Scripture no where uses the phrase "initial salvation" nor is such a thing implied in it. One does not have an initial physical birth. Likewise, one does not have an initial spiritual birth, either. One is born or one is not. The term "initial" wrongly implies that there is a process to one's spiritual birth. Scripture no where supports such an idea.

Nothing I read in the passage from 1 Peter 3 that you mentioned speaks to this matter in any useful way that I can see.

Buzz_B said:

That is another common falsehood born of the battles of ignorance of this subject we are discussing.

Jehovah's Witnesses by know means believe in being able to work their way to righteousness. They have gotten branded that way for saying many of the same things we ourselves have spoken in this thread. And it was primarily OSAS believers that did that branding of them.

I submit for your consideration that all these pet names are not the practicing of religion but human worldly politics.

Sadducee, Pharisee, OSAS Believer, Southern Baptist, and you name it, are all but worldly ways of dividing us away from each other that we can feel superior to others and not put up with one another in love realizing that Christ died for all.

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You never answered my question.

1stcenturylady said:

You never answered my question.

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1stcenturylady said:

If grace was ever interpreted as "unmerited favor" instead of "favor" it is what happened when Christ died for our sins while we were yet sinners. However, when we repented and we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gift of grace became the power of God."

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That is not a bad assessment. I know the NWT translates the word for grace as "undeserved kindness." That is similar to the Lutheran view you gave. I do not see it as much wrong as I see it lacking. For it goes without saying that his grace to us is undeserved. But the evidence is that his grace is the goodness he shows toward us in many different ways, Before our profession of faith merely by allowing us to yet live and enjoy his creation while his love reached out to us. And more so after our expression of faith when he forgave us, despite the fact that we were yet sinners and His loving-kindness and compassion then moved him to supply all our needs mightily because we love him. That is all a part of his grace.

1.) At the above comment, ""while we were yet sinners", someone out there somewhere is thinking, "Oh, I suppose you are not now a sinner!" They think that we cannot be not a sinner in this life else it is their opinion that we have committed the sin expressed at 1 John 1:8. That is one extreme.

2.) Others are thinking, "But they have not listened fully to what Paul told us, here: Romans 5:8 "But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." And they interpret that to mean that now miraculously by the power of God we ceased to be sinners. That is the other extreme.

The truth is found in the middle between those two extremes.

1stcenturylady said:

Acts 4:33 shows the Semitic style of writing of the apostles. This is an example of parallelism. Saying the same thing in two different ways. One explains the other. In this case, grace is power. "And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Now go back and re-read the scriptures you posted, and substitute power for the word grace to clarify the true meaning of the Word.

This power of God is why we are dead to sin - Romans 6:2
It is why we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit - Romans 8:9
It is why a Christian cannot commit willful sin. 1 John 3:9

We have the power of the living God residing in us.

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Am I wrong that you are the second extreme?