Are professed Christians who deliberately practice sin saved?

Blood Bought 1953 · Feb 12, 2018

bugkiller said:
Thanks, I get rather tired, bored and seriously tried by such series of posts.

bugkiller

I had the same experience.

1stcenturylady · Feb 13, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said:
I had the same experience.

Men!

Blood Bought 1953 · Feb 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Men!

Haha! Made my day!

jmldn2 · Feb 13, 2018

We still have free will after salvation. To say we are sinless IMHO is to contradict free will

1stcenturylady · Feb 13, 2018

jmldn2 said:
We still have free will after salvation. To say we are sinless IMHO is to contradict free will

Yes, man has free will. We are not robots that must obey and follow Christ. But, His followers CHOOSE to from their free will that has been infused with the presence of the powerful and sinless Holy Spirit. His yoke is easy because the Holy Spirit has put to death the willful desire to sin. Sin was the reason just knowing the laws of God was not enough. Sin had to be put to death as well, making it easy to follow. The desire to willfully sin is gone. You love what God loves, and you hate what God hates. It's simple, easy and light. We are not sinless because of anything we have done, except repent which opens the door to receiving the Spirit. We become sinless of willful sin as we walk in the Spirit and obey His leading.

BTW, I'm going to a Methodist church too, brother.

Blood Bought 1953 · Feb 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Yes, man has free will. We are not robots that must obey and follow Christ. But, His followers CHOOSE to from their free will that has been infused with the presence of the powerful and sinless Holy Spirit. His yoke is easy because the Holy Spirit has put to death the willful desire to sin. Sin was the reason just knowing the laws of God was not enough. Sin had to be put to death as well, making it easy to follow. The desire to willfully sin is gone. You love what God loves, and you hate what God hates. It's simple, easy and light. We are not sinless because of anything we have done, except repent which opens the door to receiving the Spirit. We become sinless of willful sin as we walk in the Spirit and obey His leading.

BTW, I'm going to a Methodist church too, brother.

I was raised as a Methodist.The last time I attended that church I think the Wesley brothers were still alive..lol...Do your current beliefs mirror their official doctrine ? my older brother and I used to sneak out of church—— I may have missed something."..haha

1stcenturylady · Feb 13, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said:
I was raised as a Methodist.The last time I attended that church I think the Wesley brothers were still alive..lol...Do your current beliefs mirror their official doctrine ? my older brother and I used to sneak out of church—— I may have missed something."..haha

I've only been attending there a short time and don't know the Methodist official doctrine. I go there because of the love I've seen in the members. Besides which, this is a Spirit-filled Methodist church which practices the gifts of the Spirit. They don't care that my personal beliefs don't match theirs. They accommodate me. While everyone else is partaking of leavened bread for communion, they give me an unleavened Jewish cracker.

Blood Bought 1953 · Feb 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I've only been attending there a short time and don't know the Methodist official doctrine. I go there because of the love I've seen in the members. Besides which, this is a Spirit-filled Methodist church which practices the gifts of the Spirit. They don't care that my personal beliefs don't match theirs. They accommodate me. While everyone else is partaking of leavened bread for communion, they give me an unleavened Jewish cracker.

As for myself, I take Communion at home with water and a Zesta cracker. I don’t care about the elements so much, I do it in remembrance of Him.Thats the important thing.

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Yes, man has free will. We are not robots that must obey and follow Christ. But, His followers CHOOSE to from their free will that has been infused with the presence of the powerful and sinless Holy Spirit. His yoke is easy because the Holy Spirit has put to death the willful desire to sin. Sin was the reason just knowing the laws of God was not enough. Sin had to be put to death as well, making it easy to follow. The desire to willfully sin is gone. You love what God loves, and you hate what God hates. It's simple, easy and light. We are not sinless because of anything we have done, except repent which opens the door to receiving the Spirit. We become sinless of willful sin as we walk in the Spirit and obey His leading.

Do you consider what Cephas (Peter) did in Antioch as described in Galatians 2:11-14 as willfully sinning?

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? (Galatians 2:11-14)

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
B.>"deliberately PRACTICE"...VERSUS...
"fall short of the perfection of God"

John 3 (NASB)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; (crucified ?)
15 so that whoever believes will in Him HAVE eternal (spiritual) life...(spiritually changed from above)
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten (not made) Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, (be separated) but have eternal (spiritual)life.
17 For God did not send the Son into the world (kosmos) to judge the world,
but that the world might be SAVED through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not (spiritually) judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 This is the judgment,
that the Light has come into the world, and
(wicked) men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 But he who PRACTICES the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 3:10
as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

Thanks for pointing out the distinction between the two. This is an important distinction as to what the question of the thread is really about.

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

listed said:
I don't see the problem. What I've witnessed in religious circles and personally experienced as a Christian disagrees with your view. You can't say my personal experience isn't true. If you do then you accuse me of lying.

That's not my view. That's what Paul actually wrote.

People's personal experience is subjective. I am interested in what the scripture says as opposed to merely people's personal opinion. That's why I asked in the OP for participants to support their answer with the scripture.

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

listed said:
Does 1 John 3:4 comply with your definition of sin? If so does this mean some parts of the law or all of the law?

My definition of sin is whatever that is described in the scripture. 1 John 3:4 is actually the most concise definition of sin from the Bible:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3:4)

The Greek word for lawlessness is anomia:

I. the condition of without law

A. because ignorant of it
B. because of violating it

II. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

As to what law, I see it as the law of God in the fullest sense, not Moses' law, but transgression of the will of God.

1stcenturylady · Feb 13, 2018

Lily of Valleys said:
Do you consider what Cephas (Peter) did in Antioch as described in Galatians 2:11-14 as willfully sinning?

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? (Galatians 2:11-14)

No, I think he was in between a rock and a hard place. He was ministering to weak-in-the-faith Jews who were still in bondage to the law. To eat with the Gentiles, as he normally would have done feeling no guilt, would have set back his relationship with the Jews. Peter and Paul should have communicated better. Even though Paul thought Peter was a hypocrite, in the eyes of God I believe He understood Peter's heart and motives. God would have also understood Paul's heart for truth. So neither actually sinned. Paul, himself, did the same thing regarding Jews to win them to Christ. There are two sides to every story, and we only see this from Paul's point of view.

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
No, I think he was in between a rock and a hard place. He was ministering to weak-in-the-faith Jews who were still in bondage to the law. To eat with the Gentiles, as he normally would have done feeling no guilt, would have set back his relationship with the Jews. Peter and Paul should have communicated better. Even though Paul thought Peter was a hypocrite, in the eyes of God I believe He understood Peter's heart and motives. God would have also understood Paul's heart for truth. So neither actually sinned. Paul, himself, did the same thing regarding Jews to win them to Christ. There are two sides to every story, and we only see this from Paul's point of view.

What about the people at the Corinthian church where they got drunk at the Lord's supper? Do you think they were willfully sinning?

For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32)

1stcenturylady · Feb 13, 2018

Lily of Valleys said:
What about the people at the Corinthian church where they got drunk at the Lord's supper? Do you think they were willfully sinning?

For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32)

These were baby Christians, but there were also unsaved among them, like the man who was having sex with his mother. Paul demanded that he be excommunicated and turned over to Satan for the destruction of his carnal nature. In other words, so he would repent and be filled with the Spirit. Paul was telling them to be more discerning, and only have those who truly wanted to follow Christ.

That being said, it also depends on what they KNEW to be sinful and unpleasing to God. I remember when I was a young Spirit-filled Christian and God would speak to me regularly. But I was not mindful of some sins I was committing then that are known to me now and I stopped. I was not sinning in rebellion to God, and that is what matters to Him. Otherwise, He would have stopped our fellowship.

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

sdowney717 said:
There is the old man which sins, and the new man which does not sin, no one abiding in Christ sins, that which abides in Christ is the new man and indeed can not sin as it is born of God.
It is also why God will create a new earth and a new heaven, all the old sin tainted stuff is going to completely vanish, He will create all things new, for the believer we are new creations in Christ in the Spirit, but we wait for the redemption of the body at the resurrection. For now the body is dead because of sin, but the SPirit is life because of righteousness..and we are in the SPirit and not in the flesh from God's POV. Those who are in the flesh can not please God!

Ephesians 4:17-26New King James Version (NKJV)
The New Man
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Do Not Grieve the Spirit
25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath,

Another example,

2 Corinthians 5:16-18New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

Just to clarify if this is what you really meant, that those who are truly born of God cannot sin, therefore those who still sin are still the old men, not the new men, therefore are not saved?

Then what about those people at the Corinthian church that got drunk at Lord's Supper? I thought you brought it up to show that they are not to be condemned along with the world means they are saved but still could commit sin.

1stcenturylady · Feb 13, 2018

Lily of Valleys said:
Just to clarify if this is what you really meant, that those who are truly born of God cannot sin, therefore those who still sin are still the old men, not the new men, therefore are not saved?

Then what about those people at the Corinthian church that got drunk at Lord's Supper? I thought you brought it up to show that they are not to be condemned along with the world means they are saved but still could commit sin.

It has to be KNOWN sin to them to be judged.

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
These were baby Christians, but there were also unsaved among them, like the man who was having sex with his mother. Paul demanded that he be excommunicated and turned over to Satan for the destruction of his carnal nature. In other words, so he would repent and be filled with the Spirit. Paul was telling them to be more discerning, and only have those who truly wanted to follow Christ.

So it is possible for baby Christians to deliberate practice sin and still be saved? What if they stay as infant Christians forever?

1stcenturylady said:
That being said, it also depends on what they KNEW to be sinful and unpleasing to God. I remember when I was a young Spirit-filled Christian and God would speak to me regularly. But I was not mindful of some sins I was committing then that are known to me now and I stopped. I was not sinning in rebellion to God, and that is what matters to Him. Otherwise, He would have stopped our fellowship.

Would you say sinning in rebellion to God means you still sin despite knowing that they are sinful? And is that what you consider as willful sin?

1stcenturylady · Feb 13, 2018

Lily of Valleys said:
So it is possible for baby Christians to deliberate practice sin and still be saved? What if they stay as infant Christians forever?

Would you say sinning in rebellion to God means you still sin despite knowing that they are sinful? And is that what you consider as willful sin?

Deliberate as in KNOWING it is sin? No. Deliberate as in willfully doing something you don't know is sin, yes, for if the Holy Spirit resides in you, He will eventually convict you and give you the power to overcome.

Q: Would you say sinning in rebellion to God means you still sin despite knowing that they are sinful? And is that what you consider as willful sin?

yes.

Like getting an abortion even though you KNOW it is against God, and saying to yourself, "When this is over, I'll ask for forgiveness, and God will forgive me." That is called presumptuous sin and is the same as willful sin.

Lily of Valleys · Feb 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
It has to be KNOWN sin to them to be judged.

So if the people who got drunk at the Corinthians church was judged since it was a known sin to them, then it should be considered willful sinning according to your earlier post; however, the verse below seems to imply they were simply disciplined and will not be condemned along with the world...which means they were still saved despite that?

But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

Are professed Christians who deliberately practice sin saved?

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