Britain's failing Healthcare

The British problems are largely the same as Canada's health care problems. My cousin had a hole in his heart that needed surgery, but got put on a waiting list that forced him to wait several years before he could have his surgery. My brother left Canada to practice medicine in the USA, where the pay and resources as far superior.

Where American medicine suffers the most from international comparisons is in higher costs for prescription drugs. Foreign drug companies with lower drug costs should be allowed to compete with their American counterparts to drive down the cost of prescription drugs.

Deadworm said:

The British problems are largely the same as Canada's health care problems. My cousin had a hole in his heart that needed surgery, but got put on a waiting list that forced him to wait several years before he could have his surgery. My brother left Canada to practice medicine in the USA, where the pay and resources as far superior.

Where American medicine suffers the most from international comparisons is in higher costs for prescription drugs. Foreign drug companies with lower drug costs should be allowed to compete with their American counterparts to drive down the cost of prescription drugs.

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I would reiterate - all who need any medical procedure, that is neither elective nor non-life threatening, will be dealt with immediately and would never be placed on an NHS waiting list; that includes visitors to the UK from any other country, however, once the patient's health is stabilised further treatment will need to be paid for, usually by travel insurance.

Waiting lists in the UK are for elective or non-life threatening procedures - it is right that the greater need takes precedence, whether for a Brit or anyone else. I am sure you would appreciate the system if you were here and in great need of emergency medical treatment!

How people just love to read fake news and pass it round the world on these fora :-(

Heber Book List said:

I would reiterate - all who need any medical procedure, that is neither elective nor non-life threatening, will be dealt with immediately and would never be placed on an NHS waiting list; that includes visitors to the UK from any other country, however, once the patient's health is stabilised further treatment will need to be paid for, usually by travel insurance.

Waiting lists in the UK are for elective or non-life threatening procedures - it is right that the greater need takes precedence, whether for a Brit or anyone else. I am sure you would appreciate the system if you were here and in great need of emergency medical treatment!

How people just love to read fake news and pass it round the world on these fora :-(

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USA people like to point at waiting lists as a fault in foreign systems but they forget that USA people who do not have very good insurance and are not so poor that they are covered by a state or federal scheme simply have to do without medical treatment or pay for it and possibly go bankrupt because of the high medical costs. I know a USA student who had gall stones and whose income was not low enough to qualify for free treatment and whose student medical insurance did not cover gall bladder removal. He just had to put up with the excruciating pain when he had attacks and wait until his circumstances changed so he could afford treatment. It took more than two years for that to happen. He had numerous gall stone attacks, suffered terrible pain until he was finally treated after several years waiting. That's a waiting list even if nobody in the USA calls it by that name.

I also had gallstones and after the second attack the condition was diagnosed. I was hospitalised, treated, had my gall bladder removed, and the only cost I incurred was a $60 Taxi fare for getting to hospital on surgery day. From diagnoses to surgery day was two weeks and one of those weeks was spent in hospital undergoing antibiotic treatment prior to surgery and the other week was recovery from the antibiotic treatment - not painful recovery, just giving my body some needed rest and recovery time. I live in Australia. Here we have universal health cover. It is paid for by the "Medicare Levy" which is around 2% of gross income if you have a high enough income to need to pay otherwise it is either less than 2% or nothing depending on your income.

TerryWoodenpic said:

All of Europe is a Mixed economy system. and it works very well.
As far as health goes, we do not have a personal health system that runs out when the insurance cover is exhausted, no is anyone left out what ever their financial position. it is purely based on need.

Brexit is a dire mistake, that many already regret.

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You are clearly left wing from your couple of responses I have read and you clearly buy into the left wing propaganda. One of the basic political leanings of the NHS is that the Conservatives generally prioritise keeping people in work whereas Labour focus on getting people who have stopped work for health reasons to a point where they can work again. If you have a medical condition but are still working you are better off under Conservatives and if you cant work you are better off under Labour.

You also claimed that the money went on proping up the banks but that was a drop in the ocean of our national debt. Gordon Brown as Chancellor and as PM spent a fortune on public spending which built up the national debt In particular in the run up to the 2010 election they spent all of the money and more to try to buy thre way to winning the 2010 election but lost anyway.

Gordon Brown was also responsible for rushing to sell Britains gold reserves at a time when gold prices were rising quickly. If he had kept them for another 10 years or so the price had gone up so much that it would have paid off our entire national debt. This was a national disaster.

Youve got to learn to look beneath the surface, like the UK spending to the EU. Brexit said £350m a week, Remain said £180m a week. The truth is £350m is the total bill but we get a rebate of £100m so actually pay an amount of £250m. The EU pay £70m a week including regeneration grants to deprived areas like South Wales and into EU projects in the UK. Both sideds were guilty of deception and trying to mack the true figure.

Heber Book List said:

I would reiterate - all who need any medical procedure, that is neither elective nor non-life threatening, will be dealt with immediately and would never be placed on an NHS waiting list; that includes visitors to the UK from any other country, however, once the patient's health is stabilised further treatment will need to be paid for, usually by travel insurance.

Waiting lists in the UK are for elective or non-life threatening procedures - it is right that the greater need takes precedence, whether for a Brit or anyone else. I am sure you would appreciate the system if you were here and in great need of emergency medical treatment!

How people just love to read fake news and pass it round the world on these fora :-(

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Youve got mixed up. Non-elective and life-threatening treatments are not subject to waiting lists.

EDIT, just realised your triple negative confused me.

Heber Book List said:

I would reiterate - all who need any medical procedure, that is neither elective nor non-life threatening, will be dealt with immediately and would never be placed on an NHS waiting list; that includes visitors to the UK from any other country, however, once the patient's health is stabilised further treatment will need to be paid for, usually by travel insurance.

Waiting lists in the UK are for elective or non-life threatening procedures - it is right that the greater need takes precedence, whether for a Brit or anyone else. I am sure you would appreciate the system if you were here and in great need of emergency medical treatment!

How people just love to read fake news and pass it round the world on these fora :-(

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What are you trying to say exactly?

A71 said:

What are you trying to say exactly?

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I said what I said.

Normally, people who want / need elective medical procedures and those who need medical procedures for non-lifethreatening conditions go on a waiting list.

In times of extraordinary pressure on the NHS those waiting lists will get longer, simply because those with emergency needs are dealt with first. It would be ridiculous to make someone with a heart attack, or a terrorist bullet in his head, wait whilst the theatre is taken up by a man with an ingrown toe nail, to keep down the waiting list!

The UK, since before Christmas, has seen a massive, almost unprecedented, rise in the number of people needing medical care because of the flu. The very old, very young and those with respiratory medical issues are pouring into A+E units for treatment - a large number of people with no particular medical issues are also turning up at A+E because the surgeries are full of people with the same problem: flu. The sudden rise in flu cases meant that people turning up at A+E, by whatever means, were triaged on a more strict basis - the needy first, the routine second. Where wards were full people were treated in other parts of the hospitals such as corridors or ante-theatres or even still in the ambulances; it is just not possible to turn away people needing immediate treatment. The exact same process is used when a terrorist attack occurs - those on waiting lists get delayed but, surprisingly, when this happens everyone just accepts it! In order to cope with any unexpected influx, those who were on waiting lists for surgery or treatment for elective or non-lifethreatening issues may have their treatment dates been pushed back.

I worked for a number of years as a Hospital Chaplain and can guarantee to you that provision is always made, come what may. In one year, for example, there was a massive winter flu outbreak that killed a large number of people - so many, in fact that deep freeze trucks had to be employed to carefully keep bodies frozen because all mortuaries - private and public - were full over the Christmas break, and crematoria were not open. People moaned about health issues of the dead being stored in deep freeze trucks (?), delayed funerals, the cost of hiring and cleansing the trucks before using them (?), etc etc. The UK is full of moaners!

The NHS staff work wonders and I object to people who serve only the rants of the media, to boost their viewing figures, or for political popularity (as in the OP), to try to destroy the NHS in the process. Our so called Leader of the Queen's Loyal Opposition would throw money at anything and everything - have you seen the cost of his political shopping list? It was his party that brought the UK to its knees financially when last in power - but he fails to grasp the real need which is to educate the British public to understand the basic principles of the triage system: those with real life or death needs get seen first, others form an orderly queue according to the severity of their need.

People, especially the critics from other countries as in the OP, and other posts on this thread, need to understand that the term 'waiting lists' applies only to elective or non-lifethreatening procedures - ie the ingrown toe nail, or a hip replacement, non-urgent scans etc., if, however, any of those issues get significantly worse they will be treated immediately. The number on the waiting list fluctuates as seasons change or terrorism or flu or other major incident is upon us.

Maybe some of our US posters (and others) might like to follow this link to a page, dated July 2017 (but if you look at #11 on the page, you may not like to read it - you have been warned!).

NHS ranked 'number one' health system

Thanks to the poster who shared the link with me, who could not post on here as a non-Christian

Be thankful you do not live in Eire (Ireland):

Record 530,000-plus patients on hospital waiting lists

Or read this account (you need to read the whole article) to see how the US has blinkered eyes, or skewed figures, so that the NHS looks worse than their care; definitions are everything!:

What the NHS 'A&E crisis' looks like in comparison to America's private healthcare

The UK is just very dysfunctional Heber. It is nothing to do with moaners.
My friend drove to Spain in January, and there was a freak snowstorm. The roads were overflowing with ploughs and gritters. In the UK where we are of course much more prone to bad weather, our small country generally grinds to a standstill when there is bad weather for lack of adequate ploughs and gritters.

This type of ineptitude is across the board. None of the civil services I have dealt with in the last 20 years works properly. Everything is run by accountants and puffed up mandarins without a clue. We had a terrible reputation for middle management in the 70's and it is now a lot worse.

Regarding our health services. The GP system has become almost non-functional. I used to have to wait 3 weeks in 2015 for a GP appointment. Then the GP is allotted 8 minutes to see you. I gave up using them after that. They serve no purpose.And this is one of the main reasons people now go direct to A & E. Our system is very basic, and antiquated. 50 years a GP would come out at weekends if you were ill. Loooooool. Now we have simply totally dysfunctional GP surgeries, or Hospital. (Most regional hospitals have been closed down over the last 50 years as well). So I mean a Hospital in a big city 40 or 50 miles away sometimes.

Recently I have had though to apply for my medical records from the NHS. I applied August 7 2017. Still waiting. I am seriously ill. I can die and they wouldn't know or care.

Hospital chaplains. Oh, one came up unexpectedly when my mother was dying. He had me in floods of tears, asking all sorts of crazy questions. Then, even though my mother was terminally ill with a couple of weeks to live, he prayed with me and told me my mother would definitely recover. I am sure he earns a nice government stipendiary.

I have lost count of the number of UK citizens fleeing this wretched country. And yes it is a Socialist system, but of the worst kind. They take all your money to cover care costs, and I mean ALL, hundreds and hundreds of thousands, (why wait to implement death duties?), and then give an appalling service. At least in proper socialist countries like Scandinavia you get something for your money.

The health systems in Germany and Spain, which I am somewhat familiar with, are light years ahead of the UK. For instance in Spain, which is as a landmass 4 times larger than the UK, you are rarely more than 5 miles from a health centre, which is open 7 days a week to treat emergencies.

I could go on and on.
I would like to bless the sceptred isle, but with the vast majority of Brits preferring booze and violence, either on the local streets or in some poor unfortunate holiday destination, to Church, I cannot.

Heber Book List said:

It is interesting that people who are not UK residents speak about what they hear, or what they have read, whereas those of us who live here speak about what we live - there exists a chasm between the reality and hype of media, in both the UK and other countries, largely run by Sky who dig out every doom and gloom merchant that wants their few minutes on tv, and they ignore those who live in the real world, ergo some of the posts above.

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This is exactly what I say about the multitudes--and I mean many, many many--foreigners that seem very comfortable talking about American issues at length. Reading about America is not like living here; it's just not.

America belongs to everyone in the world, just ask them. And yet, America does not even belong to Americans. We stole it from the Native Americans and should even now hand it to Mexico.

These are the daily contradictions we are asked to live with.

A71 said:

The UK is just very dysfunctional Heber. It is nothing to do with moaners.
My friend drove to Spain in January, and there was a freak snowstorm. The roads were overflowing with ploughs and gritters. In the UK where we are of course much more prone to bad weather, our small country generally grinds to a standstill when there is bad weather for lack of adequate ploughs and gritters.

This type of ineptitude is across the board. None of the civil services I have dealt with in the last 20 years woks properly. Everything is run by accountants and puffed up mandarins without a clue. We had a terrible reputation for middle management in the 70's and it is now a lot worse.

Regarding our health services. The GP system has become almost non-functional. I used to have to wait 3 weeks in 2015 for a GP appointment. Then the GP is allotted 8 minutes to see you. I gave up using them after that. They serve no purpose.

Recently I have had though to apply for my medical records from the NHS. I applied August 7 2017. Still waiting. I am seriously ill. I can die and they wouldn't know or care.

Hospital chaplains. Oh, one came up unexpectedly when my mother was dying. He had me in floods of tears, asking all sorts of crazy questions. Then, even though my mother was terminally ill with a couple of weeks to live, he prayed with me and told me my mother would definitely recover. I am sure he earns a nice government stipendiary.

I have lost count of the number of UK citizens fleeing this wretched country. And yes it is a Socialist system, but of the worst kind. They take all your money to cover care costs, and I mean ALL, hundreds and hundreds of thousands, and then give an appalling service. At least in proper socialist countries like Scandinavia you get something for your money.

The health systems in Germany and Spain, which I am somewhat familiar with, are light years ahead of the UK. I could go on and on.
I would like to bless the sceptred isle, but with the vast majority of Brits preferring booze and violence, either on the local streets or in some poor unfortunate holiday destination, I cannot.

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To keep within the OP I will only address the health issues you raise. I have never had to wait more than 7 days for a doctor appointment, and I know no one, personally, who has had to wait more than that, except where someone wants a particular doctor, who may be on holiday or off sick.

Hospital Chaplains do not get a stipend, they are paid a wage by the NHS and only work under the normal NHS guidelines (that is a very important distinction in terms). Did you complain to the hospital or to the denomination that Ordained him. Was he an official NHS Chaplain - it has been a problem in the NHS that non-licensed 'ministers' pretend to be Chaplains in hospitals, doing a lousy job because they have not been trained. I had to undergo training to do the job - training that included the pastoral care of all patients and their immediate relatives when they were visiting.

I do not understand why you need your NHS records - is this under a Court Order or a Freedom of Information request? If not, have you complained to the Health Ombudsman or the Chairman of the Hospital Trust?

PS I live in a very rural part of the UK.

Maybe you live in some special corner of the UK. Sussex or somewhere where retired MPs live. 2.5 to 3 weeks is the norm in the West.

No, I did not complain, but the hospital did several things which were very wrong. I was going to complain, but I couldn't be bothered. In the UK it can become a full-time job. When my mother died, I left. As I say to other people, 'if you don't like it, leave', I simply followed my own advice.

A71 said:

Maybe you live in some special corner of the UK. Sussex or somewhere where retired MPs live. 2.5 to 3 weeks is the norm in the West.

No, I did not complain, but the hospital did several things which were very wrong. I was going to complain, but I couldn't be bothered. In the UK it can become a full-time job. When my mother died, I left. As I say to other people, 'if you don't like it, leave', I simply followed my own advice.

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As you will see, I have just edited my post to say that I live in a very rural part of the UK. We have the highest county unemployment, mostly seasonal work, and exceptionally urgent hospital cases have to be taken by helicopter to another hospital if the local hospital cannot deal with the situation.

Mountainmanbob said:

The Left has a penchant for constantly citing Britain's National Health Service (NHS) to support their clamors for socialized medicine. However, the NHS is failing; a new report states that the NHS has reached its "breaking point":
“Pressure on all services is rising and care is increasingly being rationed. Waiting lists should not be rising, and yet they are,” said Mark Porter, council chair of the British Medical Association (BMA).
“Doctors always want to deliver the best possible care for our patients, but we can’t continuously plug gaps by penny pinching and poaching from elsewhere in an overstretched NHS.”
Therein lies the Achilles heel of socialized medicine: without a profit motive, there is less incentive to enter the field of medicine, resulting in a dwindling supply of doctors and nurses as demand from patients increases, resulting in shortages and rationing.


7 Things You Need To Know About Britain's Failing Nationalized Health System

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I think it's time for Britain to vote for Jeremy Corbyn and his party.

Derek Meyer said:

I think it's time for Britain to vote for Jeremy Corbyn and his party.

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Happy Birthday!

The United States is the only developed nation without universal healthcare. After World War II, many countries understood the need to provide coverage for their citizens. Technology and medicine advanced to the point that people could not pay out of pocket. Before that time, there wasn't much a doctor could do. Now they can operate on your brain, perform thousands of test, and offer all kinds of medicines. They can also be sued.

After the war, the US had a labor shortage. Desperate for workers, companies offered health insurance, when it was cheap. Before long, employers everywhere offered it. It became a fact of life. Healthcare became more advanced and expensive and it is has spiraled out of control. Insurance companies wanted business deals. Hospitals overcharged for services to give "deals" to insurance companies. They are also required to treat anyone in need, regardless of money or insurance. Thus, an aspirin costs $1000. A broken arm is $30,000 and then negotiated down.

Healthcare is big business in the United States. It is all controlled now by insurance companies. They do nothing but push around papers and pay their shareholders. They are a mafia. They do nothing and take a cut for themselves. They spend more money "lobbying", that is, bribing, the US government that any other "business"... but they aren't a business, just a mob racket.

Good Christian Americans like the scheme thinking that they won't have to pay for the treatment of other people. They enjoy the idea that someone, even a child, will be denied healthcare. I don't want no universal healthcare, I don't want to pay for other people. But, they already do. People go to hospitals and cost all of us huge amounts of money with what could have prevented earlier. The hospital bills our insurance for the loss.

The US loses a massive amount of money needlessly pushing papers and paying out profits to shareholders for useless paper pushing industries. Insurance companies know this and spend a lot of money to maintain their mafia racket. Imagine if all roads in the US were privatized. Instead of paying the government to maintain roads, we now paid companies to do that. Every road is a toll road. Every vehicle is accounted for and pays for its usage. Can you imagine how many people would need to be involved? Imagine the cost.. and then the fact they have to pay shareholders?

I support universal healthcare on a rational basis more than anything. Medicare, medicaid, billing, interest, paying shareholders, overpriced services... one family cheats to get medicaid, the other pays through the nose being honest. We don't benefit from sick people. We all lose.

A71 said:

Hospital chaplains. Oh, one came up unexpectedly when my mother was dying. He had me in floods of tears, asking all sorts of crazy questions. Then, even though my mother was terminally ill with a couple of weeks to live, he prayed with me and told me my mother would definitely recover. I am sure he earns a nice government stipendiary.

.

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Hospital chaplains come from many denominations and religions including Muslims, and other faiths.
Prior to 2012 the Church of England took the principal role in advising on the appointment of Chaplains.....
Since then this is no longer the case.
Many Ministers Volunteer as part time assistant chaplains.

The Health service is required by statute to provide a chaplaincy provision, that is sufficient to cover individual patient needs. This is funded to the tune of 3.75 hours per week, per 35 patients, with posts matched by religion or belief. It also covers staff at the rate of 3.75 hours per 500 staff.

On top of this provision, Priests, from Churches like my own, will visit patients from our own parish as part of their normal duties. I suspect other religions would do the same.

Mountainmanbob said:

From over here looking across the pond Britain truly does not look the same.


M-Bob

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Well no one sent an engraved invitation from India or Zimbabwe or the native people of the United States and Canada when the British took over their countries. If Britian gives the people of these countries the right to immigrate to Britain, I see it as just. Even if Britain truly does not look the same.

Mountainmanbob said:

The Left has a penchant for constantly citing Britain's National Health Service (NHS) to support their clamors for socialized medicine. However, the NHS is failing; a new report states that the NHS has reached its "breaking point":
“Pressure on all services is rising and care is increasingly being rationed. Waiting lists should not be rising, and yet they are,” said Mark Porter, council chair of the British Medical Association (BMA).
“Doctors always want to deliver the best possible care for our patients, but we can’t continuously plug gaps by penny pinching and poaching from elsewhere in an overstretched NHS.”
Therein lies the Achilles heel of socialized medicine: without a profit motive, there is less incentive to enter the field of medicine, resulting in a dwindling supply of doctors and nurses as demand from patients increases, resulting in shortages and rationing.


7 Things You Need To Know About Britain's Failing Nationalized Health System

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I am British and i love the NHS.

Having read your post you seem to have a very little understanding of its problems.

The Major issue is the last few right wing conservative governments have failed to fund it properly. Another problem is their constant tax cuts for the wealthy which means their is now less money coming from taxation to fund it.

The conservative Party have never liked the NHS and have always wanted to privatize it but if they did that it would be political suicide so what they are doing is letting it fail so they can roll out privatize.

The trouble with private healthcare is its okay if you can afford it, if you can't then you can't get healthcare.

Not having free healthcare just costs the state more money in the end.

I could not afford private health care which means no access to the medicine i need and without it long term i would not be able to work and then i become a burden to the state by living off welfare.

Having free health care means i can stay healthy and work and contribute to the state through taxes.