LDS For Not Following Joseph Smith?
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The Bible says that God is with us and the Holy Spirit does not withdraw but remains with the Christians forever.
I've read what your leaders taught:
As a personage of spirit, the Holy Ghost can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.2
The Holy Ghost Testifies of Truth - ensign
What Christ never said:
President Spencer W. Kimball taught that the Holy Ghost “comes a little at a time as you merit it. And as your life is in harmony, you gradually receive the Holy Ghost in a great measure” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 114).
The blessings available through the gift of the Holy Ghost are conditioned upon worthiness. “The Spirit of the Lord doth not dwell in unholy temples” (Hel. 4:24; see also Mosiah 2:36–37; 1 Cor. 3:16–17). Even though we have a right to his constant companionship, the Spirit of the Lord will dwell only with us when we keep the commandments. He will withdraw when we offend him by profanity, uncleanliness, disobedience, rebellion, or other serious sins.
“Always Have His Spirit” - ensign
____________________________________________________________
J. Golden Kimball
Kimball served as a general authority for forty-six years. During the time, it was customary for church leaders to frequently travel to Mormon communities in the western territories and states. Kimball gave hundreds of sermons, sparkling with humor and wit. A tall lean man, his voice was described as high and rasping. He was well known for swearing good naturedly from the pulpit, sprinkling "damns" and "hells" into his speeches. Although the habit was of concern to other church leaders, and subjected him to counsel from church president Heber J. Grant on many occasions, this common touch made Kimball one of the most beloved leaders in the church's history.[citation needed] Asked how he could get away with the way he spoke, Kimball is said to have replied: Hell, they can't excommunicate me. I repent too damned fast.[citation needed]
J. Golden Kimball - Wikipedia
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In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.
He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)
LDS Leaders Define Their Concept of JESUS CHRIST
As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins” (2 Ne. 25:26).
We Look to Christ - Gordon B. Hinckley
Joseph Smith taught:
“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476)
Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith --- History 1
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Joseph Smith—History 1
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Randy777
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While the orthodox version of the trinity is not offensive to me as I have and do pray with Jesus,(who is All that the Father is), in mind and He has on occasion answered back but I do feel there is error in part to that theological creed. I use Pauls and there is a distinction being made between God and Lord that is not captured by orthodox trinity statements. No mention of the Fathers Spirit in that statement.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
I do feel Jesus has always been Gods Son that is at some point in history before the world began God formed Jesus's spirit then was pleased to have all His Fullness dwell in His Firstborn. God is Spirit as Jesus told the lady at the well and there can only be One Divine Spirit as there is only one true God and according to Jesus the one true God is His God and Father.
Jesus calls the Father the one true God if Jesus always was and always was God how then does one believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my Spirit"?
AS I stated before in regard to the HS the Father states "My Spirit" so how then can that spirit shown to be a separate distinct person from the "Father". God being God can send His Spirit into the world and in us as well as Jesus. It may seem a separate person but it isn't -not from the Father. But is from the Son as Jesus has His own mind and will and spirit as a Son should.
The Father in regard to Jesus=>
The writer of Matthew quoted Isaiah and attributed it about Jesus.
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. (with light comes accountability-justice to the nations)
I believe the HS is the Fathers Spirit and there is only ONE Spirit that is divine. The Fathers or Gods.
Its clear to me the Son who was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. And that the Father was still in Him.
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Peter1000
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You mean the HS is going to stand by a wicked bishop that tortures, and rapes, and murders people just because they don't believe in Jesus the same way he does. You think the HS will uphold this man because he is a Christian bishop??????????
I would say the HS would flee from this wicked man and this man would be left to manage by himself, with his own intellect. Do you think the HS would remain and uphold this wicked man?????
That is why the scripture says that Jesus must leave in order for the HS to come. The HS and when the HS is on the earth, he can not be in heaven. It only makes sense if God sends the HS to earth, he would no longer be with God in heaven. Right???????????
Hence Kimball is right, at least according to the scriptures.
We are all united in and under Jesus Christ. Even if we view him differently, we can still be united in and under him.
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I too think that God, will only dwell within a person who has surrender himself to the Almighty. But, having said that, Jesus came to save sinners! Jesus surrounded himself with sinners!
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Peter1000
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Yes, you are right, but Jesus was sinless and remained sinless. If you are in an attitude of trying to do what is right, the HS will be with you in your endeavore. Especially as you repent of your sins and never return to them, the HS will be by your side to give you comfort and reassurance that you are doing the right things.
May the Lord Jesus be with all of us as we continue to love him and keep his commandments and invite the HS to be with us always.
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mmksparbud
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Jesus had no beginning. Firstborn means, the head of not just the first thing born. It is Jesus that created everything--including the angels and Lucifer.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
That is why this whole thing about Lucifer and Jesus being brothers is a bunch of hooey--Jesus created him.
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mmksparbud
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That would be clue #1 that this is not of God. Jesus set up the church to begin with. If there is anything wrong, He would want to correct it, not do away with what He created---the church represents Him---He is the head of it. He is not going to do away with it and replace it with some man. He found plenty of wrong with the 7 churches in Revelation---He pointed out what was wrong, He did not set up John as the new head of a new church. He did away with the priesthood because He is the Highpriest now and none other needed, He did not set up a new church and get rid of the old---He cleaned up the old way of doing things that were no longer needed, or were wrong. JS was either mislead, or he is indeed the brother to Satan.
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Well, if the Holy Spirit leaves people, Jesus was a liar. And if you think you know who is Christian and who isn't, you're claiming to be omniscient.
Omnipresence doesn't mean everyone on earth is given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a Guide. Most people are still in the flesh walking in darkness.
Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Galatians 1 KJV
Paul's Greeting to the Galatians
1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
No Other Gospel
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Acts 17 KJV
Paul and Silas at Berea
10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thitherwent into the synagogue of the Jews. 11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. 13But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people. 14And then immediately the brethren sent away Paul to go as it were to the sea: but Silas and Timotheus abode there still. 15And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.
Jeremiah 23 KJV
Lying Prophets
16Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
Joseph Smith:
"...I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . "
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409
Doctrine and Covenants 130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
Romans 9 KJV
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Mormonism
“This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth…” (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pp. 164-165).
NO SALVATION WITHOUT ACCEPTING JOSEPH SMITH. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth when he said that he stood in the presence of angels sent from the Lord, and obtained keys of authority, and the commandment to organize the Church of Jesus Christ once again on the earth, then this knowledge is of the most vital importance to the entire world. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God. It is, therefore, the duty of every man to investigate that he may weigh this matter carefully and know the truth.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 189-190
I carefully copied that quote from the book. The online version requires a lot of scrolling down.
There is a copy of this book here
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Randy777
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Jesus is before all things except the Father, his God. Jesus was before the world began. The creation was made though Him and Jesus is all that the Father is so John 1:1 is cohesive with what I believe about the "Son"
Jesus calls the Father the one and only true God. if Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross"Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"
What you should see is that the Father has glorified His Firstborn above all His other children. Angels or mankind. For In Jesus ALL the fullness of the Godhead (Father) was pleased to dwell. Jesus's spirit is not that fullness. The Spirit of the Father in Him is that fullness. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge and all the power of God.
Jesus is the exact Image of the wisdom and power of God. Yet he received that from His God and our God His Father and our Father.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is All that the Father is
No, He has always been the Son
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Randy777
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I think you are correct in this there are 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem and they are named after the 12 Apostles of the Lord. The NT was given through Jesus and His 12. The NT was and is a complete testimony. If anyone sought understanding from the Lord the understanding would be given from that testimony not new Revelations.
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mmksparbud
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Where did you get that I believe Jesus Godhood started at the cross??? Never even implied such a thing and the post you quoted says so. He always was one with God. What I said that you never responded to is that Jesus not only always was---but He is the creator of all things---including Lucifer. Nothing that was created was done without Him--Jesus never was a brother to Lucifer---He created him. JS was wrong and a false prophet.
Sorry---just woke up---I kept thinking I was responding to one of the Mormons!!
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Randy777
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I agree JS is a false prophet and I am sure at this time he regrets what he did.
Jesus had in a hand in the creation, Genesis, and nothing was set place in heaven without Him. Except the Father. The Spirit over the waters in the beginning is the Fathers and it was by that spirit that the creation was made and by that spirit that Jesus performed the miracles. Hence "God" created through the Son.
The Fathers Spirit forms other spirits - hence heavenly Father
Jesus has his own spirit and if His spirit was divine then you have two Gods. hello?
The spirit of God is the Fathers Spirit. "Fathers Promise"
Jesus has a beginning but no end. At some point in history before the world began.
Jesus has no end because He lives by the FATHER.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
There is only One Divine Spirit as there is only One true God. The One Jesus calls His God.
And firstborn can mean the plain meaning as firstborn child of a parent. However Did forming JESUS'S spirit has nothing to do with a male and female union to produce a offspring. Not that You believed that.
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
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Peter1000
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Read this scripture to see if the bible was completely complete:
1 Corinthians 3:2King James Version (KJV)
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Paul had given his followers the 'milk' of the gospel, and he wanted to give them the 'meat' of the gospel. But he did not because if he had given them the 'meat' of the gospel they would not have received it, IOW they would have rebelled against a higher level of Christian living. So he was not able to give it.
So I suggest that the bible is not a complete work of what God expects from you. The bible only gives you the 'milk' of religion, but not the 'meat'. The 'milk' is good and you need to have that well in hand before you tackle the 'meat' of the gospel, but if you don't reach out for the 'meat' you will not be happy for all eternity.
Paul did instruct in parts, the 'meat' of the gospel, but never in its fullness.
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Randy777
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There is a depth and width of theology in the NT it is a complete and finished testimony and a gospel message that was first preached in a world with many false Gods and different customs. The message didn’t change in the 1800 hundreds. JS is a false prophet who had other motives in mind. As in personal gain for himself. Those who follow his considereable additions are outside of the faith.
Gods Holy Spirit testifies to our Spirit that we are His children and that spirit is received by faith in Jesus. Test yourselves to see if your in the faith. You can’t lie to yourselves.
Gods Holy Spirit testifies to our Spirit that we are His children and that spirit is received by faith in Jesus. Test yourselves to see if your in the faith. You can’t lie to yourselves.
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mmksparbud
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I agree with except for one thing---we can, and quite often do, lie to ourselves! We can talk ourselves into believing anything. Like that crazy man that you're married to really does love you even though he beats you up once a week, and you really can stop drinking anytime you want, you will start that diet tomorrow, there is not that all much fat and calories in a double whopper cheeseburger with fries and a milkshake----JS did, too, see an angel-----list is endless. We can even block out the Holy Spirit and grieve Him away.
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