Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

LostMarbels · Dec 11, 2017

NothingIsImpossible said:
1 John 2:
Some of the verses quoted are just that.... verses. Its the biggest thing I learned in bible studies. That often christians will repeat a single verse and claim it to mean something. But they ignore that one verse can be used out of context. You need the verses before and after. The paragraph maybe, to see what the verse is applying too. Hence its called cherry picking to use a single verse (in many cases).

A good example of this is "judging". Probably one of the most common verse people will use is "Do not judge" (..etc). And alone that verse sounds like no one can judge. THerefor it fits their need so that they feel no one can judge them. But they often leave out the fact the bible talks more about this subject and in fact actually says we can use correction and reproof on each other (only to a certain degree, then we leave it up to God). So to say "God says not to judge!" is false doctrine. We do not technically judge each other, but we can teach each other.

I agree with this. Good point.

NothingIsImpossible said:
One other thing I would mention is some talk of a verse 1 John 2:19 (They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us) out of context. Especially when it comes to the issue of sin. Many people will say you cannot belong to God if you sin. Because you sin willingly. But is that the truth? Well I don't believe it's 100% accurate. Because sometimes you sin on accident. Maybe a moment of weakness. Let's say a driver cuts you off on the freeway and you swerve and end up slamming into a wall and scream a swear word. Did you do so on purpose? No.

It does not matter your intention. God said thou shalt not. You will be without excuse.

2Sa 6:6-7 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

God had given Moses and Aaron specific instructions about the Tent of Meeting and the movement of the Ark of the Covenant:

"After Aaron and his sons have finished covering the holy furnishings and all the holy articles, and when the camp is ready to move, the Kohathites are to come to do the carrying. But they must not touch the holy things or they will die. The Kohathites are to carry those things that are in the Tent of Meeting” Numbers 4:15.

No matter how innocently it was done, and even tho it was done to protect the ark; touching the ark was in direct violation of God’s law and was to result in death. It ought never to have been put upon a cart, old or new. It was to be borne upon men's shoulders, and carried by Levites only, and those of the family of Kohath Exodus 25:12-14; Numbers 7:9, using the poles prescribed.The penalty of sin is death. Period.

Do not give yourself that excuse because God will not give it to you at the great white throne of judgement.

(Jas 4:17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

NothingIsImpossible said:
Me? I have no problem admitting trying to live like Jesus is hard.

No, it is not hard. It is impossible. You cannot do it because you already failed. Even if you live perfect and completely sinless from here on out you have still sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

JOYFUL-ONE · Dec 11, 2017

NothingIsImpossible said:
The only accurate view on OSAS is that its false. For example lets say Hitler was a christian. Then did what he did. Would he still go to heaven? No. Proof enough you can lose it. The only counter argument people try to make is "Well that person wasn't saved to begin with!". Which doesn't make much sense. So lets say someone really well known like Billy Graham decided one day to go on a shoot spree killing children. Would this mean he was never saved to begin with? Of course not. All it means is he now lost his salvation.

You can turn your back on God to the point in which there is no longer a "grey line". And at this point you lose your salvation. However.... if you come back to God, its still there to be had.

SeraTaru · Dec 11, 2017

On one side there is the position that you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do, and on the other side there is the view that you need to repent every moment because if you have unconfessed sin when you die then you may not get the ticket into paradise that you expect.

Somewhere between these two extremes there lies truth.

I spent years as a new believer in the first camp, I spent years as a believer in the second camp. Each position I could defend with scripture.

My feelings are now that it's my job to "keep myself in the love of God", and God will make sure nothing separates me from his love.

So I'm not 100% certain.

I do know however that I fear hell, and I don't take salvation for granted. I believe the scriptures teach that we need run the race, fight the good fight and strive for holiness without which "no one, NO ONE will see the Lord".

It is a comfort to me that over the times I've fallen away and sinned willfully - when I look back - I can see that Jesus was still there, and still had his hand on me. HE never left ME even though I left HIM.

If I was forced to take a position I would err on the side that I cannot be unsaved as it were. Even a number of years ago when I deliberately walked away from God as a result of a divorce and became involved in witchcraft and Satanism, drink and drugs....looking back....HE NEVER LEFT. His Spirit always was there...that still small voice that never would leave.

Without going into the gory details, on one occasion when I was in the middle of a satanic ritual - God spoke to me audibly and said clearly "I haven't gone away". At the exact same moment a bible which I had on my altar for desecration purposes flew across the altar - about 3 feet - and knocked a statue of the Baphomet to the ground and broke off it's head, wings and arms.

This is a great comfort to me - the faithfulness and love of the Saviour. No matter how far I ran, his faithful hounds of love always ran faster and further.

What a wonderful God we serve.

JoeP222w · Dec 11, 2017

God is the one who justifies, sanctifies and glorifies the individual believer. God is the one who perseveres and preserves the believer. If you can lose your salvation, that means your salvation is not of God and is not salvation. God does not fail in what He does.

That does not mean that the Christian never sins. Nor does it mean that if a Christian sins just once after be saved that he or she is condemned or has lost their salvation. It also does not mean that the Christian has no accountability to God, for even the Christian will answer to God, but they will not be condemned. If they were, they Christ was of no accord and God is unjust because He would be punishing the same sin twice.

So often it is put forth that you can lose your salvation. This clearly indicates that the person believes that their salvation is performance or works based. Christ died all of the believers sins, past, present and future.

And if someone is in Christ, they will not exhibit a habitual, lifelong practice of sin. You shall known them by their fruit.

Romans 5 and 6 have much to say on this.

SeventyOne · Dec 11, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I think Matthew 7 has already been quoted in this thread. These people had the Holy Spirit. They were casting out demons, they had gifts of the Spirit as they were prophesying in Jesus name, and signs and wonders were following them. But because of their continuing in sin, Jesus said, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness.

So, will Jesus be in error when He tells them He never knew them?

aiki · Dec 11, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
But because of their continuing in sin, Jesus said, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness.

"I never knew you..." In other words, "At no point have I known you as one of my own." This doesn't sound at all like Jesus is speaking of people who were once saved and then not. And this makes perfect sense in light of the fact that Jesus was speaking of "false prophets" who move among the "flock of God" clothed as sheep but inwardly are "ravening wolves." (Matt. 7:15)

How did these "ravening wolves" prophesy and perform miracles and cast out demons? Not in the power of the indwelling Spirit of God, but in the power of Jesus' name. Even when spoken by unregenerate men, the name of Christ has supernatural power.

SeraTaru · Dec 11, 2017

aiki said:
"I never knew you..." In other words, "At no point have I known you as one of my own." This doesn't sound at all like Jesus is speaking of people who were once saved and then not. And this makes perfect sense in light of the fact that Jesus was speaking of "false prophets" who move among the "flock of God" clothed as sheep but inwardly are "ravening wolves." (Matt. 7:15)

How did these "ravening wolves" prophesy and perform miracles and cast out demons? Not in the power of the indwelling Spirit of God, but in the power of Jesus' name. Even when spoken by unregenerate men, the name of Christ has supernatural power.

That's a very thought provoking point of view and one I've not come across before. Like it.

Linktogunner · Dec 11, 2017

aiki said:
"I never knew you..." In other words, "At no point have I known you as one of my own." This doesn't sound at all like Jesus is speaking of people who were once saved and then not. And this makes perfect sense in light of the fact that Jesus was speaking of "false prophets" who move among the "flock of God" clothed as sheep but inwardly are "ravening wolves." (Matt. 7:15)

How did these "ravening wolves" prophesy and perform miracles and cast out demons? Not in the power of the indwelling Spirit of God, but in the power of Jesus' name. Even when spoken by unregenerate men, the name of Christ has supernatural power.

To touch on matt 7 24... I read it from the ESV and it stuck out to me that they SAID they casted out demons. They SAID they prophesied, they SAID they did many mighty works... it never implied they actually did. I could be wrong.

SBC · Dec 11, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Once Saved Always Saved - is simply a short quip that is expressly highlighting

ONCE - or otherwise at such time the Lord
HAS Saved a mans soul FROM destruction...
HAS Saved a mans soul UNTO Himself.........
THAT soul IS always and forever Saved.

To believe that is not so would make the Lord a liar.

It is men of the earth who are liars.
It is such men who can;
Call on the Lords Name and Confess Belief;

With the thoughts of their MIND and anyday change their MIND!
Their soul is not Saved, regardless if witnesses saw and heard his confession or a
Church dunks him in water or a church permits him membership.
Such man was not Once saved, but did specifically Call on the Lords Name and Lie to Him.

OR
Call on the Lords Name and Confess Belief;
With the thoughts of their HEART and EVEN
THEN the Lord searches their Confession that it be TRUE;

IF - yes IF the mans Confession BE TRUE -
THEN - YES - ONCE and FOREVER the mans soul IS SAVED.

Who knows what is in a mans Heart but the Lord and the man himself ?

Any man can be seen going to an alter call or hear a man claim he is Saved...and?

Any other man can Believe such man is Saved.

But how does another Know for sure IF a man IS Saved? They don't!

However a man can tell BY other things IF a man is NOT Saved.

By such man speaking against the Lord.
By such man speaking against the Word of God.
By such man claiming he used to be Saved.
By such man openly rejecting God.
Etc.

The Lord is not fooled by a mans antics.

Once the Lord saves a mans soul, it is forever the mans soul is Saved unto the Lord.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC · Dec 11, 2017

aiki said:
"I never knew you..." In other words, "At no point have I known you as one of my own." This doesn't sound at all like Jesus is speaking of people who were once saved and then not. And this makes perfect sense in light of the fact that Jesus was speaking of "false prophets" who move among the "flock of God" clothed as sheep but inwardly are "ravening wolves." (Matt. 7:15)

How did these "ravening wolves" prophesy and perform miracles and cast out demons? Not in the power of the indwelling Spirit of God, but in the power of Jesus' name. Even when spoken by unregenerate men, the name of Christ has supernatural power.

Precisely.

God Bless,
SBC

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 11, 2017

LostMarbels said:
And yet... David was a man after God's own heart.

Yes he was (is?)

..... Did David SIN WILLFULLY every day, day after day ? as a man after God's own heart, or was he repentant and stopped committing adultery ? Remember no adulterers are in heaven - no one with an impure heart is in heaven, according to Scripture.

dqhall · Dec 11, 2017

NothingIsImpossible said:
Me? I have no problem admitting trying to live like Jesus is hard. Growing up in a house with a angry, rage filled mom I learned bad habits. Its taken time and Gods strength and help to change my life back around so much. But I am not perfect. There are times when I am on my knees in despair over how I let God down because I did something or gave into something I knew I shouldn't have. Do I believe I am saved? Yes. I also believe if I went back to my lifestyle from a decade ago, I'd maybe lose that salvation again. I don't want that.

In 1949 there was an outpouring of a Spirit of Holiness in Lewis, Scotland. Hundreds of people were filled with a desire to be seeking God while Duncan Campbell was preaching in the Parish of Barvas. A hundred young people at a dance left the dance hall to go listen to him. The local pub closed and had not reopened for decades. Some of the young people listening to the preaching went on to become pastors themselves.

As one becomes saved, there may be a noticeable change in behavior, character, works and speech. Whether or not this continues to eternal life is often too early to tell.

Luke 13: 22 (WEB) He went on his way through cities and villages, teaching, and traveling on to Jerusalem. 23 One said to him, "Lord, are they few who are saved?" He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen up, and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside, and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' then he will answer and tell you, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' 26 Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' 27 He will say, 'I tell you, I don't know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.'

Arthur B Via · Dec 11, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

It is always best to refer to God's Word friend. In the Gospel of John 6:35-40 Jesus concludes the matter of eternal security through His finished Work at the Cross. Read...

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 11, 2017

If only He hadn't also said, he who endures to the end .....

Halbhh · Dec 11, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

If a person has real faith (not only verbal saying), then they will want to do what Christ said to do.

But....all the time, the normal temptations of the world -- lusts, greed, worldly indulgence, ignoring the needs of our brothers and sisters in Christ, gossip, and on and on -- will be around, and if one's habit is to do those then it's possible to fall back into them.

This is why Christ told His disciples, the apostles:

38 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

And in the Lord's Prayer we are to pray that He gave us in Matthew chapter 6:

13... "And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one."

And in Luke also:
"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

Now, many Christians do not pray this prayer He said to pray, or we all even fail to do it often enough.

Guess what will happen.

Yes, we will fall into temptations.

When we do, it's not the end, but it is a danger.

We then have to follow the pull of the Spirit on our conscience -- the feeling of guilt over those wrongs we've done (and there is a false doctrine from the enemy preached some here and there to help confuse people about their guilt over real sins, so that they would ignore their guilt in their conscience and not repent) -- and then we confess/ repent.

If we do confess/repent, we are forgiven, immediately. (1 John chapter 1)

We can refuse, and that leads to increasing alienation from God. We will get more chances. But unless a person has enough faith to pray or to repent, how will they make it?

Again, we see how crucial Matthew 7:24-27 is, because storms will come onto each and all.

JacksBratt · Dec 11, 2017

CodyFaith said:
It's the truth.

Jesus says he who believes in him has passed from death unto life and will not come into condemnation. Jesus said whoever believes has eternal life. You can't have eternal life at one point and then lose it, it's not an object collected, it's eternal life. In 1 John towards the end it makes it very clear the believer has eternal life.
" and this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." 1 John 5:12
And the following verse says "These things I have written unto you that you that believe on the name of the Son od God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God"

It's even in the O.T. Read the Psalms. I'll give the common Psalm 23 as an example. "Surely goodness will follow me all of my days and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever" - that was a psalm for the righteous and a gurantee towards them. If it wasn't a gurantee for the righteous it wouldn't be in there, along with all the others Psalms that say the same things.

Scripture is clear. All saints have eternal life.

Believe in Jesus and be adopted into the family of God by Christ's blood. That is all God requires for salvation and that is the gospel.

I agree, God's plan is for eternal life. He makes you a new creature. He says that nobody will snatch you from my hand.

It is the pride of men, influenced by the deception of Satan, that promote a possibility of losing ones salvation.

Who are we to judge a mans heart. Who are we to say "he must not have been saved" or "they were never saved" or "that sin has cost them their salvation"?

Who are we to know the demons people face in the trials of this life on earth? Who are we to say that any other persons actions were not what we would have done in the same situation?

It is plain arrogance that people claim that they, somehow, know that someone has lost their salvation.

Once saved..... you are a child of God... Once saved, you are a new creature. Once saved, there is therefore, now, no condemnation.....

I realize that I am posting on a thread dominated by those that think that OSAS is not correct...

I, on the other hand believe in Christ and rely on the OSAS principal as a HOPE of my salvation.

Others will say they are totally capable of never sinning again. Some say that you must repent of every sin or else be hell bound by any unforgiving sins.

I say that we worship a loving God. He loves you more than you love your kids. What one of you would disown a child for screwing up? They will always be your child. Why would God be any different.

SBC · Dec 11, 2017

He who endures until the end of what?

Every one that is born alive and of the earth is everyone who has his own life which is his own Blood in his body.

Everyone who endures to the end IS everyone Who believes in their heart until their own life's ending, which all born out of the earth, are already sentenced that their blood life SHALL end.

An individual mans enduring to his end IS a man believing until his Blood life ends.

David was disobedient to the law.

David was never with Belief And Then without belief in God.

David endured to his end of his own Blood life.

Yes David was a man after Gods own heart which is to say;
David thirsted to know Gods Word, Truth an Understanding- an excellent example that all should be after the same.

God Bless,
SBC

Halbhh · Dec 11, 2017

JacksBratt said:
I agree, God's plan is for eternal life. He makes you a new creature. He says that nobody will snatch you from my hand.

That's right. If a person really does believe (not only saying one does and getting baptized because it is expected, etc.) -- has true, real faith --- then they will do the commandments Christ said to us to do.

It's like James said: if you have faith, show me your works. Because that 'faith' without works is actually dead -- not real.

There are very many that pretended to believe, got baptized, but never were actually believing, we'd expect.

They didn't believe to begin with -- for instance, some might have not believed He rose, just one kind of not-believing.

But....there is still time, and they could turn, and repent, and come to Christ, for the first time, in their hearts.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 11, 2017

Notice that the proponents of osas all believe they have no free will left to leave Jesus.

Naturally no one in the Shepherd's Care 'ought' to want to leave Him,

but His Word repeatedly gives warning about this very thing.

So even just one warning about the penalty of leaving Him, one believer who tasted of the heavenlies, leaving Him, disproves osas hands down.

Something so simple, mankind has complicated beyond recognition of the truth, to deceive others further or to placate their own selves, or some other reason..... (maybe just being deceived is enough?) ...

Gregory Thompson · Dec 11, 2017

God cannot die, the life we are given by God when we are born again is His quality of life.
.
Is another way of phrasing it. It's more trust oriented. The OSAS I commonly hear sounds like using the bible as a litigation tool to prove salvation.

Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

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