Are collections of 'tithes and offerings' what Yeshua really taught?

Lulav said:

the woman was pregnant and he had lost his job and they didn't have money for fuel oil and it was the winter time. The Congregation refused to give them any help

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That's more than merely bad -- ignoring brothers and sisters visibly in need is soul endangering. --Matthew 25:31-45

Lulav said:

I am all about giving, anyone that knows me knows anything the need or I ever perceive they need, I'll give to them but it just struck me as wrong these 'collections' especially when I found out about a need of a couple in our congregation, the woman was pregnant and he had lost his job and they didn't have money for fuel oil and it was the winter time. The Congregation refused to give them any help! I was appalled and that started my journey of research on this subject.

Click to expand...

I agree with halbhh on this one.

Matthew 25:40
The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

Galatians 6:10
So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

James 2:16
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

Lulav said:

NOTE: This is the Messianic Judaism forum and all posts are subject to our SOP, please read it if you haven't already, Thank You.


During Yeshua's time on earth we read that tithing was mentioned quite a few times.

It was later ignored and two short verses, one in the book of Acts and another to one congregation of Pauls have been misinterpreted and used to support Sunday worship and tithes and offering giving.

I've seen many Messianic congregations that seem to have fallen into this same error.

The Churches use these verses to substantiate the Sunday service with collections of money and the Messianic congregations have fallen suit.

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Since Paul was ready to leave the next day, he talked to them and kept on speaking until midnight. 8 Now there were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered.…​

They have seemed to miss many cultural points hinted at here.

1. The first day of the week starts at sundown following Shabbat
2. The next day would have been the 'day', same day as the first of the week just the sunlite part. It would be like saying that 'Paul was going to leave the next morning he talked to them until midnight.
3. They came together to share a meal, not the 'Lord's Supper '
4. The following verse speaks to a time following Shabbat when the sun goes down it is now permissible to light many oil lamps and that is what they did. Today we have a custom very similar called Havdalah and it marks the ending of the Shabbat and also allows us to linger a bit longer in it's wake.

Also keeping with the havdalah traditions there is another called Melaveh Malka, meaning to Acoompany the Queen (of Shabbat).

This is a 'meal' of mostly challah bread or other bread which fits perfectly with what we read about in Acts 20:7-8.

It is also of interest to find that this Melaveh Malka is dedicated to King David, Elijah the Prophet as well as Moschiach himself!

Now getting back to the topic, the other verse used is this one

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you should set aside a portion of his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will be needed. ​

This was not a 'tithe' nor an offering as seen in Torah. This was a collection Paul was taking up for the 'poor' in Jerusalem.

He speaks of this in his appeal to Felix in Acts 24:17

"After several years away, I returned to Jerusalem with money to aid my people and to offer sacrifices to God.​

or

"Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings."​

Now if the Churches were actually doing as Paul says, they would be making collections for the Jewish people, not themselves.

So what did Yeshua have to say about giving?

In Luke we read

"Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”​

This is nothing more than another variation of the Golden Rule.

We all know the story of the 'Widows mite' and how she gave all she had in her poverty.

There are others like,

Matt 5: Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.​

Matt 19:“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”​

From Luke 6: But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.​

Then there's this one, which is very important to this topic. Most churches, pass the collection plate. Those to the left and right of you see what you put in there unless you've used an envelope and written a check. The Messianic congregations follow suit or have a collection at the front of the room with a 'Pushkie'.

1 Take heed (make sure) that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

​

And before the collection plate is passed many have a prayer before which usually includes some version of the verse above from Luke with a verse from the 'Old Testament' Malachi 3, which many say is not for them (and really it is addressing the Aaronic priesthood, not the laity). Of course it is used out of context and only the highlighted part spoken of.

"From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of hosts. "But you say, 'How shall we return?' 8"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!…
​

This to me is spiritual blackmail making those in the pews think if they don't give so much they are robbing G-d, it is shameful.

My husband and I were having a discussion about this years ago when it seemed at odds to me what our congregation was doing and how it was in opposition to what Yeshua said.

I am all about giving, anyone that knows me knows anything the need or I ever perceive they need, I'll give to them but it just struck me as wrong these 'collections' especially when I found out about a need of a couple in our congregation, the woman was pregnant and he had lost his job and they didn't have money for fuel oil and it was the winter time. The Congregation refused to give them any help! I was appalled and that started my journey of research on this subject.

My husband was still on the fence about this which I didn't know at the time. We were attending the Messiah conference in Pennsylvania at the time and while in the Market place a woman came up to my husband ( I wasn't with him at the time) and had chatted a bit about something on one of the tables there, then she walked away but within a minute she returned and said to him,

''I think the L-RD has something he wants me to tell you''​

He said that she didn't seem sure if she should tell him or not so it didn't seem like one of those that always has a 'Thus saith the L_RD to you' thing to say to anyone that will listen.

She said: "He wants me to tell you 'Luke 3:11' "​

Now my husband is not good at memorizing verses and the woman proclaimed she wasn't sure what that one was either. When my husband and I met up awhile later he told me about this, said he wrote it down so he didn't forget.

I got out my bible and looked it up as I wasn't sure either..................

Luke 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

"The person who has two coats must share with the one who doesn't have any, and the person who has food must do the same."​

I was startled when I read it for more than one reason.

Yes, we had been having discussions about the tithes in congregation, but I was even more surprised that these were not the words of Yeshua, but of John, his cousin. The one who was preparing the way for him.

How many follow the words of JOHN? He had many followers, even after his death and Yeshua's. Surely these followers were in line with what Moshiach taught, right? Yeshua said he was the Elijah to come.

What are your feelings on tithes and offerings?

Are they still for today?
Are they to be collected only on Sunday?
Are you obligated to put money not towards helping others but to say keep a building standing which is only used for one day a week?
Should your 'tithes' go directly to the poor and in need?

Click to expand...

There has been a shift in the Priesthood since John and Yeshua (the Messenger of the Covenant) Came and Preached, for all those who are able to Comprehend, Believe, and take hold of the Covenant they are now Both Priests and Sovereign (royalty) to whom both Tithes and Taxes belong.

In essence, tithing is only legitimized by the Disbelief of those who remain anti-christ/non-anointed individuals, and the same is true for taxation.

Keeping in mind, the non-annointed paid tithes to the Levi, and Levi in turn paid Tithes (from their received tithes) unto Aaroni, Levi being the Third born yet standing in the stead of the First born, the (firstborn) Aaroni priesthood thus signifys, those (Levi) who stand in the stead of another are rank wise subservient to the other.

Lulav said:

NOTE: This is the Messianic Judaism forum and all posts are subject to our SOP, please read it if you haven't already, Thank You.


During Yeshua's time on earth we read that tithing was mentioned quite a few times.

It was later ignored and two short verses, one in the book of Acts and another to one congregation of Pauls have been misinterpreted and used to support Sunday worship and tithes and offering giving.

I've seen many Messianic congregations that seem to have fallen into this same error.

The Churches use these verses to substantiate the Sunday service with collections of money and the Messianic congregations have fallen suit.

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Since Paul was ready to leave the next day, he talked to them and kept on speaking until midnight. 8 Now there were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered.…​

They have seemed to miss many cultural points hinted at here.

1. The first day of the week starts at sundown following Shabbat
2. The next day would have been the 'day', same day as the first of the week just the sunlite part. It would be like saying that 'Paul was going to leave the next morning he talked to them until midnight.
3. They came together to share a meal, not the 'Lord's Supper '
4. The following verse speaks to a time following Shabbat when the sun goes down it is now permissible to light many oil lamps and that is what they did. Today we have a custom very similar called Havdalah and it marks the ending of the Shabbat and also allows us to linger a bit longer in it's wake.

Also keeping with the havdalah traditions there is another called Melaveh Malka, meaning to Acoompany the Queen (of Shabbat).

This is a 'meal' of mostly challah bread or other bread which fits perfectly with what we read about in Acts 20:7-8.

It is also of interest to find that this Melaveh Malka is dedicated to King David, Elijah the Prophet as well as Moschiach himself!

Now getting back to the topic, the other verse used is this one

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you should set aside a portion of his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will be needed. ​

This was not a 'tithe' nor an offering as seen in Torah. This was a collection Paul was taking up for the 'poor' in Jerusalem.

He speaks of this in his appeal to Felix in Acts 24:17

"After several years away, I returned to Jerusalem with money to aid my people and to offer sacrifices to God.​

or

"Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings."​

Now if the Churches were actually doing as Paul says, they would be making collections for the Jewish people, not themselves.

So what did Yeshua have to say about giving?

In Luke we read

"Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”​

This is nothing more than another variation of the Golden Rule.

We all know the story of the 'Widows mite' and how she gave all she had in her poverty.

There are others like,

Matt 5: Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.​

Matt 19:“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”​

From Luke 6: But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.​

Then there's this one, which is very important to this topic. Most churches, pass the collection plate. Those to the left and right of you see what you put in there unless you've used an envelope and written a check. The Messianic congregations follow suit or have a collection at the front of the room with a 'Pushkie'.

1 Take heed (make sure) that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

​

And before the collection plate is passed many have a prayer before which usually includes some version of the verse above from Luke with a verse from the 'Old Testament' Malachi 3, which many say is not for them (and really it is addressing the Aaronic priesthood, not the laity). Of course it is used out of context and only the highlighted part spoken of.

"From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of hosts. "But you say, 'How shall we return?' 8"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!…
​

This to me is spiritual blackmail making those in the pews think if they don't give so much they are robbing G-d, it is shameful.

My husband and I were having a discussion about this years ago when it seemed at odds to me what our congregation was doing and how it was in opposition to what Yeshua said.

I am all about giving, anyone that knows me knows anything the need or I ever perceive they need, I'll give to them but it just struck me as wrong these 'collections' especially when I found out about a need of a couple in our congregation, the woman was pregnant and he had lost his job and they didn't have money for fuel oil and it was the winter time. The Congregation refused to give them any help! I was appalled and that started my journey of research on this subject.

My husband was still on the fence about this which I didn't know at the time. We were attending the Messiah conference in Pennsylvania at the time and while in the Market place a woman came up to my husband ( I wasn't with him at the time) and had chatted a bit about something on one of the tables there, then she walked away but within a minute she returned and said to him,

''I think the L-RD has something he wants me to tell you''​

He said that she didn't seem sure if she should tell him or not so it didn't seem like one of those that always has a 'Thus saith the L_RD to you' thing to say to anyone that will listen.

She said: "He wants me to tell you 'Luke 3:11' "​

Now my husband is not good at memorizing verses and the woman proclaimed she wasn't sure what that one was either. When my husband and I met up awhile later he told me about this, said he wrote it down so he didn't forget.

I got out my bible and looked it up as I wasn't sure either..................

Luke 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

"The person who has two coats must share with the one who doesn't have any, and the person who has food must do the same."​

I was startled when I read it for more than one reason.

Yes, we had been having discussions about the tithes in congregation, but I was even more surprised that these were not the words of Yeshua, but of John, his cousin. The one who was preparing the way for him.

How many follow the words of JOHN? He had many followers, even after his death and Yeshua's. Surely these followers were in line with what Moshiach taught, right? Yeshua said he was the Elijah to come.

What are your feelings on tithes and offerings?

Are they still for today?
Are they to be collected only on Sunday?
Are you obligated to put money not towards helping others but to say keep a building standing which is only used for one day a week?
Should your 'tithes' go directly to the poor and in need?

Click to expand...

The 10% tithe doesn't reflect the culture of the church that the apostles established (Acts 4:32), but it has come about later, most likely originating from the false teachers (eg: 2 Peter 2:1-3).

The way churches operate these days is most like a worldy institution, where it is seen as an enterprise that needs to be profitable. If their pews are filling up the room, they will get a mortgage to expand, and then they will come under financial pressures as they are being forced to meet the obligations to the bank.

All the while there is another church a few streets over that is almost forced to sell it's freehold title because it's parishioners have fallen below the threshold to meet basic costs (taxes, maintenance etc).

When a church is considering this expansion, they need to have a reliable income as a foundation to budget. Seeing as this enterprise mindset has been widespread in churches for so long, it is assumed without question that they have the right to expect a 10% tithe on God's authority. So they take the path of following the majority, essentially because that is the path that seems to meet their needs. They have an objective, and they have found scriptural support. It's just an example of the innate human weakness (2 Peter 3:16), but by doing so, they also set themselves up for judgement where the scriptures condemn them (eg: Proverbs 22:16).

Whereas what Jesus teaches is to be not worried about tomorrow - what you will wear, eat, etc. Give to whomever asks of you. If someone takes from you, do not insist on getting it back. The offshoot of this, is that Adonai, who see's all that is done in public and in secret, He will repay (Proverbs 19:17) and clothe us in splendour (Luke 12:27, Luke 12:24, Psalms 37:25).

It's also good to bring in the issue of Mammon and how it is an opposition to God's created order. Nobody can eat money, nor can money keep us dry while we sleep. These things are found in the tangible creation that God has made - food, shelter, warmth, love. Psalms 24:1 states that the whole earth belongs to Adonai, and all who dwell in it - yet, Jesus gave formal recognition that Caesar had the right to ownership over the currency. As we think about how He spoke in Matthew 22, just after demanding that the Pharisee's give the fruits of The Kingdom to God, He said "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God".

People don't need money at all. They need food, shelter and warmth. These are things that grow in our back yard, that people exchange for money. St. John writes "If somebody has material things and seeing his brother in need, closes his heart against him - how does the love of God remain in him?". This actualisation of freedom, salvation (having the life of Christ dwelling in us) - it doesn't come by tithing. It only comes by upholding the Torah - that is, to love God and neighbour.

In most cases when a church member pays a tithe, it is given for the purpose to appease some sense of obligation, in order to avoid a condemnation by their conscience (they would have learned this by experience!). It is driven by fear, it is an enslavement to fear, and it is installed by the spirit of Mammon, not the spirit of Christ. It should not be surprising to hear this, because any person who is motivated by sin instead of love, is not yielding himself to be an instrument for The Holy Spirit. St. John writes "He who stays in love stays in God, and God in him". So when a church pastor has managed to get his enterprise stuck in a financial conundrum, through anxiety he is preaching from greed for the purpose of serving the bank - not from The Holy Spirit for the purpose of giving spiritual food to the flock who is trusting him. Worst of all, at least 92% of that revenue will be going toward the bank's interest, with only the remainder going toward the principle - after he has taken out his salary and paid the contractors etc. If he's going to say that those tithes are doing Kingdom Work, he's also having to lie from the pulpit in the name of Jesus.

In fact, money is thought of as a thing, whereas it did not begin that way. There was a time before money became an instrument, where all exchange was of tangible goods and services. Money was introduced to represent a ledger of trade, and it has now become a currency - a basal system of survival. The proper way to regard money is a representation of trade in progress - where the goods/services that we once had have already been given, and the goods/services in exchange have not yet been acquired. Think on that! Money really is no different to barter, because it is only the ledger - the record of trade - the representation of what has been relinquished verses what has been acquired.

.. As for how the tithes should be used .. well, I believe that the apostles would look at congregations today and see that there is a lot of idle hands, and that cash is a valuable thing (because it is universal). Get those idle hands growing fruit and vegetables on the church's land, using that to feed the poor in the community. Some of those in the community will reward the kindness - maybe with a leftover half bucket of paint in their shed. Get some of those idle hands up on the ladder with a paint brush to maintain the church building, keeping the thousands of cash you would have paid to the contractor.

The cash is good for paying taxes with and for acquiring the goods/services from those who will only respond to cash, while making full use of the non-cash resources already available to free the church from being committed to, and enslaved to the money system.

I think that if the whole congregation tithe, then the recipient body (the local Church or the Denomination, or both), should also tithe ALL income, from any source - that tithe going to the poor and needy.

Those who don't have good employment, they might have time and skills. They might find they are giving a greater service to The Lord by offering a half day volunteer work (10% of a 40 hour week), something that a church group could coordinate to serve God's needs in the community (painting widow's houses, picking up litter and chatting to passers-by etc). This would relieve them of an increased financial burden to their family that is already burdensome, and as I mentioned, the church itself doesn't need all that much cash anyway - it only needs cash to pay tax, really.

Lulav said:

3. They came together to share a meal, not the 'Lord's Supper '

Click to expand...

breaking bread is another way of saying the Lord's Supper

Yeshua taught the Torah, including those laws regarding taking care of the poor. That included, in part, the tithe (which went both the the Levites and the poor) not harvesting the corners of your field, leaving what you drop for the poor to glean, allowing anyone who wants to enter your vineyard or orchard and eat as much as they want, loaning money without interest, and every fifty years, the land would go back to whoever originally owned it (radical redistribution of wealth).

The believers in Acts took this even farther, putting all their wealth into one pot and distributing it as necessary to whomever needed it. Paul received collections from the outlying churches that went into this one kitty at Jerusalem, from which such charitable donations were made.

Biblical Tithing was radical,"social justice." It puts us to shame.

Years ago, when I was at Cambridge, I was attached to a Church in one of the outlying areas where I was made an Honorary Elder for the duration of my Ordination training. The Church taught tithing and, at the end of each year, whatever was in its 'day to day' bank account it gave away to charity, except for £1000 needed to pay bills at the start of the year; the amount given away could run into several 1000's of £s. It provided for its building maintenance (a legal Trust requirement) with a monthly standing order from its general account. It did not raise funds, by raffles and coffee mornings etc., etc., and was never in need. The Minister was paid with no problem every month. It can be done with a mixed income congregation that is willing to fully tithe their income (whether before or after tax).

Heber Book List said:

that tithe going to the poor and needy.

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Except the tithe was to support the Levites and priests. Other offerings went to help the poor.

Open Heart said:

The believers in Acts took this even farther, putting all their wealth into one pot and distributing it as necessary to whomever needed it.

Click to expand...

That was a holy spirit inspired way of avoiding having all their property taken away (which happened in chapter 8).

And then Paul had to take up offerings to help the poor believers in Jerusalem.

Dave-W said:

Except the tithe was to support the Levites and priests. Other offerings went to help the poor.

Click to expand...

The Minister(s) would be funded directly from the same income Nowadays, if everyone tithed and that money was solely for the Minister(s), they would be paid far too much and way above the average congregant. If I applied that rule to my last appointment I would have received in excess of £52,000 a year, with my housing cost on top of that!

Heber Book List said:

if everyone tithed and that money was solely for the Minister(s), they would be paid far too much and way above the average congregant.

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Not really. You could afford a full time pastor for every 10 families that fully tithed. Their salary would be the average salary of the congregation.

Dave-W said:

Not really. You could afford a full time pastor for every 10 families that fully tithed. Their salary would be the average salary of the congregation.

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It is normally one Minister for about 100 to 150 Members. A ratio of 1:10 would not carry anywhere near enough work for each Minister to do.

Heber Book List said:

It is normally one Minister for about 100 to 150 Members. A ratio of 1:10 would not carry anywhere near enough work for each Minister to do.

Click to expand...

1:10 is for households. Figuring an average of 4 people (dad, mom, 2 kids) per house, that would allow for 2-3 pastors. 150 would give you 3-4, assuming all were full time employed.

How many people can a pastor ACTUALLY pastor? (be involved in the congregants' day to day lives)

Dave-W said:

1:10 is for households. Figuring an average of 4 people (dad, mom, 2 kids) per house, that would allow for 2-3 pastors. 150 would give you 3-4, assuming all were full time employed.

How many people can a pastor ACTUALLY pastor? (be involved in the congregants' day to day lives)

Click to expand...

100 - 120 is a normal average size of a single pastorate regardless of whether they are families or not. Having said that some are much larger and some much smaller, with a single Minister; it depends on whether it is part of a denomination or group of congregations, the topology of the area to be covered, the money available to pay a Minister (incl. maybe a house, too), whether several smaller congregations can share one Minister etc., etc. The possible variations are almost endless, including a non-Stipendiary Minister - one who has a full time job outside of Church life - in which case the time available will be very limited compared to a full time Minister, and so pastoral care will suffer.

Dave-W said:

That was a holy spirit inspired way of avoiding having all their property taken away (which happened in chapter 8).

Click to expand...

It was a holy spirit inspired way of caring for their poor so that none wanted. It says in the very next verse, " They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need."

Heber Book List said:

It did not raise funds, by raffles and coffee mornings etc., etc., and was never in need.

Click to expand...

My parish does fundraising events because, quite frankly, parishioners don't tithe.