Who Was Moses?

Open Heart said:

You keep saying that, this idea that to become Israel you have but to believe in Yeshua and keep the commandments, but have not proven it.

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I already have in the countless verses I've shared. From Romans 11, to Jesus saying Himself that all those that believe on Him are one people, to verses in the OT.

Galatians 3:28King James Version (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 - Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Jesus was the first fruit of Israel. He is the root of Israel. He is that which faith was to be placed on, from the beginning. This is why He says the early scriptures tell of Him. The Torah. Not the Tanakh, but the Torah.

Even back in the Torah, all a stranger had to do, was to follow after the customs of the land, and he would be as one born in the land. It's the same as back then...

Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49 - "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Then He shows how you're to treat a stranger in the land.

Leviticus 19:33-34 - 33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

As one born among you. That's all the proof you need. No one is in the land that God Himself gave to anyone. There are people residing in the land that God once gave. But, God didn't give it to anyone, they were taken, and so were we. Israel as it stands today (the country) is in opposition to the Torah. What's my point? Because, how one joined Israel back in the day, was following the customs that are lain out in the Torah. Therefore, since nothing changed, aside from the Priesthood (going from Levites being the only priests, to Yeshua being the only Priest), we still can join exactly as it says in Torah.

All we have to do, is follow the customs. We can't partake of the Passover without being circumcised physically, which I was at birth, so, I can do that as well, but I digress. Just because Judah decided to make it "convert to Judaism or no cigar", doesn't mean anything. I can say that the only way to be saved is to give me a tax, and then get 10 million people all around the world to agree to that. Cool. Doesn't mean anything, because the Torah doesn't say that. If something opposes Torah, it opposes truth, and therefore isn't truth. We don't have to convert to Judaism to be counted as Israel, because that was never what the Torah said. It said that one that wishes to be counted as Israel, should walk as God tells Israel to walk, and it will be done for that one. Well, that's what we're doing, and it's been done for us. Despite anyone giving us the "authority" to do so. It's above all of us, it's what the Father condones, and what He says, goes.

Why do you think Peter had that vision in Acts 10? Because, the rabbinic law that was passed around (called the Talmud today) banned Jews from befriending Gentiles. God never once said anything of that sort in the Torah. Never. There were certain people groups that were lost, and He wanted destroyed, but as far as strangers, anyone from anywhere, so long as they had it in their heart, could join and be a part of Israel, as one born in the land, so long as they would only walk as He told Israel to walk. That was what was made known to Peter in that vision.

This is why I said we would probably have to agree to disagree. No, I may not be able to convince you of this truth, but it is what it is. I can't blame you, you've been raised up to think (I'm assuming since you're Jewish from my understanding) that the only way to Israel, was through Judaism. I was once a victim to traditions of man as well, so again I can't blame you if we never agree on this, it is what it is.

Open Heart said:

Romans 11 is the one chapter that I am MOST familiar with and it certainly does NOT back you up. It makes a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. It talks about Gentiles being grafted onto the Olive Tree that is the Oracle of God. A graft does NOT change the species of the tree. If I graft a peach tree onto a plum root, it is still a peach tree. Wild olive grafted onto a regular olive root is still wild olive.

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Well, the "Oracle of God" literally just means the word of God, and it's used also once or twice to also talk about a part of the temple. It isn't a person nor a people.

But, even if it just meant the word of God, and the gentiles were grafted into the word of God, with Judah, wouldn't that mean the gentiles would then change according to His word? Or would those grafted into His word, then go and do the opposite of His word?

Let me submit to you that if someone was grafted into God's word, that they would live by that word. Otherwise, what would be the point of the grafting if they'd just ignore it anyway?

The good olive tree, is Israel. They aren't changing plant types, it's going from wild (out of covenant, and godless), to cultivated (Israel, The chosen, sheep, the elect, etc). From unkempt to cared for.

That's the whole point of Joseph's coat of many colors. Many colors, many nations, many people. The curse of Ephraim, the prophecy about the joining of Judah back to Ephraim. It's starting to happen right now.

If you do the math of the days of their disobedience, God says he'll punish them one year for each day of disobedience times seven. From the time He said that, if you do the math on it, it would've ended in 2008, and around that time people have started seeing this. Whether all on their own or with help. This is nearing the last of days, the curse is being lifted.

Open Heart said:

No,it's a different species that looks like an olive.

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An olive tree, is a olive tree. The only difference is as pat said.

The olive tree reference isn't some random thing Paul made up, It is from the scriptures. Specifically the scriptures I linked you about strangers becoming Israel.

Why would strangers be allowed to become Israel in the Torah (how יהוה originally intended things to be), but now after Yahushua, they aren't? It makes no sense. You're ignoring all of Torah by implying that.

Yahushua is the word, and faith in the word results in obedience to the word, just a those in the Torah discovered. A lack of faith in the word, is a lack of faith in God.

Open Heart said:

Israel is the branches that were cut off.

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No, Israel is represented by the entire tree.

Yahushua is the Priest. He is the root. Without Him, no one is able to come before the Father, just as it was with the old priesthood, so it is with Him. The only difference is that He makes atonement for our sins with the Father in heaven, as opposed to priests doing it here with animals.

He was the first fruit of the Father, a child of God. The children of God are Israel. Literally the only things that changed about the old covenant and it's renewal was the priesthood.

Open Heart said:

Israel is the branches that were cut off.

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Romans 11:1
[1]I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

This shows that Paul is part of Israel, yet he's not been grafted out. How do we know this? Because of how he describes those that were grafted out:

Romans 11:7-10
[7]What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8](According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[9]And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
[10]Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

This represents that of Israel who were grafted out. Unable to see. Blinded, deafened to the truth.

Not all of Israel was blinded, otherwise Paul wouldn't have written this - therefore Israel isn't represented entirely in the grafted out. Only a portion.

Romans 11:16-17
[16]For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

God only ever told Israel to be holy. The first fruit wss (Yahushua), and the lump and root were (Yahushua), and since the branches are only in because of faith, and were grafted out because of a lack of faith, the branches are Israel.

It's why Jesus says be perfect. He doesn't mean actual perfection, but like Abraham, because he kept the law of God and was justified by faith he was considered perfect.

Open Heart said:

There are still Gentiles that become part of Israel. But the point is, it is not NECESSARY.

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If the elect are Israel. If God's people (Israel) is the only group to ever be called sheep. If Israel is the only group called the children of God, chosen, and the only group ever called to be holy, then yes it matters. Especially since there are only 12 inheritances, and 12 gates - one for each tribe of Israel.