--- Need help proofreading my website that discusses the Christian Trinity. Please assist ---

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

Hi all,

I created a website called "study of the trinity" (words all together) that uses the Scriptures to show that Jesus is not his Father YHWH/Yahweh/God/Jehovah or a any part of a Trinity.

That while Jesus is God's only begotten son and the savior of mankind, the Trinity is a man made invention that can historically be traced back to starting centuries after Jesus and the apostles time.

I would like some help in proof reading my website for spelling and grammatical errors as well as some clarification if anything is confusing so I can reword it.

I could use your help!

Please PM if interested.

Thank you.

Sea Horse · Aug 30, 2017

Study open

Matthew 28:19
Genesis 1:1

study closed.

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

Hi Sea horse, I do talk about Matthew 28:19 on the website.

tstor · Aug 30, 2017

Sea Horse said:
Study open

Matthew 28:19
Genesis 1:1

study closed.

What?

cloudyday2 · Aug 30, 2017

I am not qualified to proofread your website, but here is an idea for something to include if you haven't: what are the practical implications of believing or disbelieving in the Trinity? For example, should people pray to Jesus ever? What is the role of Jesus? etc. (People are always debating the Trinity, but I wonder why anybody should care.)

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

That is a great questions cloudy!

Knowing the role of Jesus and who he was helps us to have a better relationship with his (and our God and Father).

Many (if not most) mainstream Christians pray to Jesus. To answer your question about who we should pray too, Jesus is the ultimate example for us and being this example who did he pray too? Who did Jesus direct all prayer and worship too?

The answer is, Jesus directed all worship, honor, praise and prayer to his heavenly Father (YHWH/Yahweh/God/Jehovah), so we should do the same.

Knowing that the Trinity is a man made concept helps us better direct prayer where it rightfully belongs. To YHWH, not too Jesus.

Jesus intercedes for us and because of his ransom we are able to have prayer with God but we do not direct prayer to Jesus but like Jesus, we direct our prayer to Jesus's God and Father (YHWH).

This among other things is covered on my website with Scriptures to back it up. You are free to visit the website and please do not feel obligated to proofread. Just be advised that it needs work and a second/third (or more) pair of eyes so that it is grammatically correct and is easy to read.

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

Truth Seeker81 said:
Hi all,

I created a website called "study of the trinity" (words all together) that uses the Scriptures to show that Jesus is not his Father [...]

The doctrine of the Trinity doesn't teach that Jesus is His own Father; in fact this is considered heretical by us as this is the doctrine of Sabellianism. Sabellianism, named after Sabellius (also known as Modalistic Monarchianism or simply Modalism) is the teaching that God is a single Hypostasis who manifests Himself in different ways or "modes", that is, God puts on different masks (prosopa) depending on circumstance; it thus teaches that the Father became incarnate as Jesus, and that the Father suffered on the cross (hence its other name, Patripassionism). On the contrary, the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Hypostases of one Substance. The Son is homoousios (of the same Substance or Being) with the Father, and is therefore "true God of true God"; but the Son is not the Father because the Son is the Son, "begotten of the Father before all ages".

If on your website your argument includes a refutation of Jesus as His own Father as a refutation or critique of Trinitarianism, then you aren't refuting or critiquing Trinitarianism, but instead confusing Trinitarianism with Sabellianism.

If you want to understand the doctrine of the Trinity, then you should look at historic, more official sources, such as the Ecumenical Creeds (e.g. the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed) and the writings of the ancient fathers (especially Athanasius, Augustine, Hillary of Poitiers, and the Capadocians). Or at the very least look at how it is confessed in traditional Christian churches or even an objective secular source like Wikipedia is sufficient to provide a starting point.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

Truth Seeker81 said:
That is a great questions cloudy!

Knowing the role of Jesus and who he was helps us to have a better relationship with his (and our God and Father).

Many (if not most) mainstream Christians pray to Jesus. To answer your question about who we should pray too, Jesus is the ultimate example for us and being this example who did he pray too? Who did Jesus direct all prayer and worship too?

St. Stephen the Protomartyr at his martyrom prayed directly to the Lord Jesus,

"As they stoned him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'" (Acts 7:59)

The answer is, Jesus directed all worship, honor, praise and prayer to his heavenly Father (YHWH/Yahweh/God/Jehovah), so we should do the same.

But He did not reject it when He Himself received it, and it has always been the historic practice of the Church to worship Christ our God.

Knowing that the Trinity is a man made concept helps us better direct prayer where it rightfully belongs. To YHWH, not too Jesus.

The confession that Christ is Himself divine is expressed quite consistently throughout the New Testament, ranging from the prologue of St. John's Gospel where it declares the Logos was in the beginning with God and is God, to Christ's assertion that He is one with the Father, to St. Paul's statements that in Christ is the fullness of deity, and also in the Pastorals where He is specifically called "God"--which is retained in the writings of the most ancient of the fathers, St. Ignatius calls Christ God, as does Polycarp, Justin, and others.

Within the first couple centuries the chief Christological debates weren't on whether Christ was divine or not--this wasn't under dispute. Rather the debates centered on what it meant to call Christ God, to which there were Sabellians who as I mentioned before taught that Christ was the Father, and there were Adoptionists who taught that Christ was made divine, then in the 4th century we have Arius who taught that Christ was God but another God altogether, the secondary Divine. These were the debates, not whether Christ was God, but how Christ was God. The result of these debates is the Symbol put forward at Nicea in 325, ultimately received and confirmed in 381 with the amendment concerning the Holy Spirit in response to the Pneumatomachi.

To suggest that the Trinity was simply "made up" ignores the complex Christological (and to lesser extent Pneumatological) debates and conversations going on in the early centuries of the Christian Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is a theological affirmation and articulation of a complex internal Christian conversation over Christ's precise relationship to, with, and in God; which begins in the earliest years of the apostolic era with an already rather high Christology that establishes Christ as having identity with Israel's God (see Philippians ch. 2 and compare with Isaiah 45, the language of the Apostle is rather unmistakably taken from Isaiah, this is more clear in the Greek of both).

Jesus intercedes for us and because of his ransom we are able to have prayer with God but we do not direct prayer to Jesus but like Jesus, we direct our prayer to Jesus's God and Father (YHWH).

This among other things is covered on my website with Scriptures to back it up. You are free to visit the website and please do not feel obligated to proofread. Just be advised that it needs work and a second/third (or more) pair of eyes so that it is grammatically correct and is easy to read.

I would, again, direct your attention to read more sources and expend your knowledge on these topics.

-CryptoLutheran

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

Via,

Thank you for your reply. You did a drive by assault there with a wall of text in multiple replies.

There is a lot of assumptions both in your answer (that Jesus is God) and in my knowledge on the matter. I could break down and answer your reply piece by piece but then I to would be creating a wall of text.

A lot of what you talked about is discussed on the website. For the sake of repeating myself, did you get a chance to review my website in its entirety?

cloudyday2 · Aug 30, 2017

Here is something that just came to me.

If the type "god" is distinct from the type "human" then there must be some features in one that are absent in the other.
How can one instance of the type "human" also be of the type "god" but not for all instances of the type "human"?
The problem of course is that Jesus is considered both "human" and "god" - and there is only one "god".

I'm sure the Christian apologists have addressed this. It seems to be an abuse of language to claim this. I'm curious how they addressed it.

I'm thinking back to my time programming C++ and I recall multiple inheritance. Maybe that is a good analogy IDK. Of course the type that is created from multiple inheritance from two other types is neither of the parent types. Jesus would be neither "human" nor "god". Jesus would have the features of both and might be described as more capable than either of the parents.

cloudyday2 · Aug 30, 2017

This also gives me an idea: all theologians and philosophers should be required to write a compiler to turn their grammar into some kind of executable simulation. This would help to find flaws in their ideas.

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

Truth Seeker81 said:
Via,

Thank you for your reply. You did a drive by assault there with a wall of text in multiple replies.

There is a lot of assumptions both in your answer (that Jesus is God) and in my knowledge on the matter. I could break down and answer your reply piece by piece but then I to would be creating a wall of text.

A lot of what you talked about is discussed on the website. For the sake of repeating myself, did you get a chance to review my website in its entirety?

No drive by assault. I corrected a misconception that you seemed to have, that Trinitarianism says Jesus is the Father--something, as I stated already, is regarded as heretical by orthodox Christians.

Further, I addressed some of your claims which you yourself made. It wasn't a wall of text, it is a series of responses to your own statements. While I did not go into any depth into a defense of the deity of Jesus I did highlight a number of things and made reference to biblical material, patristic material, and the theological climate of the early Christian period--it was a rejection of your claim that the doctrine of the Trinity was simply "made up", the doctrine of the Trinity is an articulation and affirmation of apostolic and patristic teaching borne principally out of Christological debate.

I'll be more than happy to check out your website, but since you are posting on a discussion forum you should expect that the things you say will end up being discussed and challenged.

-CryptoLutheran

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

Via,

I don’t see anyone on this thread that made the statement that Jesus is the Father. In fact, quite the opposite. Jesus is separate from his Father and Jesus is his Father’s “only begotten” subordinate son, whom he (YHWH) is well pleased in. Jesus is separate from YHWH and is subordinate to him. This is evidenced all throughout the Greek Scriptures.

I was Trinitarian and I know that Trinitarians believe that Jesus is co-eternal and that he is co-equal with God. That Jesus is both co-equal and co-eternal with God because Jesus is God. But yet, while they are both God they are both separate. While Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, they believe Jesus is the Almighty God. That both YHWH (the Father) is the “Almighty” God and that Jesus (the son) is the “Almighty” God. None of these assertions are supported by scripture. In fact the Scriptures, when read as cannon contradict this assertion. What about the so called “Trinity texts”? Many of these things is what I have pointed out in my website through various scriptures.

The doctrine of the Trinity most certainly was made up by various men and teachings and it was made up well after Jesus and his apostles time. You stated it in a round about way “the doctrine of the Trinity is an articulation and affirmation of apostolic and patristic teaching borne principally out of Christological debate.”

What is your quoted statement saying?

Your statement is saying that the doctrine/teaching of the Trinity came to fruition through debate and through various teachings. This historically is accurate. Historically, the teaching of the doctrine of the Trinity (which got its start from the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds) and did not come from the apostles, started well after Jesus and his apostle’s time and did not come about until after various debates and various teachings from various men, some who were philosophers and some where not even Christian at all. The Trinity doctrine and the consequent teaching that Jesus is God, The Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God but yet there are not three Gods but one, came about centuries later, well after Jesus and his apostles time. This can be researched and verified through multiple reputable sources such as Encyclopedias and the like. Trinity bias on certain Hebrew and Greek texts has also crept into various translations. All of these things are things I have covered extensively on my website.

The point of this thread was not to debate the topic of the Trinity but to elicit help in proofreading my website (and answer someone’s question of why I created the website and why to distinguish both YHWH and his only begotten son Jesus). I have debated this topic numerous times. If someone disagrees with what I presented, that is ok and I am open to discuss it with them. Please PM me or start another thread. As far as this thread is concerned, I just want help checking my website for spelling and other errors as well as to reword pages if confusing.

This offer still stands. Please assist me. The website does cover a lot of information so it may take some time but I could use assistance.

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

Truth Seeker81 said:
Via,

I don’t see anyone on this thread that made the statement that Jesus is the Father. In fact, quite the opposite. Jesus is separate from his Father and Jesus is his Father’s “only begotten” subordinate son, whom he (YHWH) is well pleased in. Jesus is separate from YHWH and is subordinate to him. This is evidenced all throughout the Greek Scriptures.

This was the comment I am referring to, see what I've put in bold:

"I created a website called "study of the trinity" (words all together) that uses the Scriptures to show that Jesus is not his Father YHWH/Yahweh/God/Jehovah or a any part of a Trinity."

The implication I got from this was that "Jesus is His Father" is a Trinitarian belief--which it isn't.

I was Trinitarian and I know that Trinitarians believe that Jesus is eternal and that he is co-equal with God. That Jesus is both co-equal and co-eternal with God because Jesus is God. But yet, while they are both God they are both separate. While Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, they believe Jesus is the Almighty God. That both YHWH is the “Almighty” God and that Jesus is the “Almighty” God. None of these assertions are supported by scripture. In fact the Scriptures, when read as cannon contradict this assertion. What about the so called “Trinity texts”? Many of these things is what I have pointed out in my website through various scriptures.

Another important correction: Trinitarianism does not state that the Son is separate from the Father. The Hypostases are distinct, but not separate. That may seem like a very minor quibble over semantics--but it's quite important.

The doctrine of the Trinity most certainly was made up and it was made up well after Jesus and his apostles time. You stated it in a round about way “the doctrine of the Trinity is an articulation and affirmation of apostolic and patristic teaching borne principally out of Christological debate.”

What is your quoted statement saying?

That what we know as the doctrine of the Trinity is the theological formulation of the teaching which began with the Apostles and continued into and through the early patristic period.

Your statement is saying that the doctrine/teaching of the Trinity came to fruition through debate and through various teachings. This historically is accurate. Historically, the teaching of the doctrine of the Trinity (which got its start from the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds) and did not come from the apostles started well after Jesus and his apostle’s time and did not come about until after various debates and various teachings from various men, some who were philosophers and some where not even Christian at all. The Trinity doctrine and the consequent teaching that Jesus is God, The Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God but yet there are not three Gods but one, came about centuries later, well after Jesus and his apostles time. This can be researched and verified through multiple reputable sources such as Encyclopedias and the like. This is something I have covered extensively.

The doctrine of the Trinity did not get its start from the Nicene or Athanasian Creeds; that's my point. It gets its start with the apostolic witness; that St. Paul never articulates what is finally formulated at Nicea, Constantinople, et al isn't the problem you think it is; because what is formulated at Nicea, Constantinople, et all is the result of what St. Paul did teach. It is St. Paul who says that in Christ is the fullness of Deity in bodily form, it is St. Paul (or at least someone speaking in his name) who declares Christ to be God (Titus 2:3), who says that Christ "though being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God...". These Christological statements are present, and this same language is used as time continued, with St. Ignatius (for example) saying "Our God Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Ephesians, 18:2), "God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life" (ibid. 19:3); or St. Justin, "Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God" (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 128). There is a continuum of faith and confession which is birthed in the experience of those who knew Christ, was preached by them, received by those to whom they preached, and who continued in their teaching--it is precisely this continuum and apostolic tradition that we see in the patristic writings and which, ultimately, is formulated in the Creeds and taught at length in the later fathers.

The point of this thread was not to debate the topic of the Trinity but to elicit help in proofreading my website (and answer someone’s question of why I created the website). I have debated this topic numerous times. If someone disagrees with what I presented, that is ok and I am open to discuss it with them. Please PM me or start another thread. As far as this thread is concerned, I just want help checking my website for spelling and other errors as well as to reword pages if confusing.

I must say, it seems strange that you came to a discussion forum not to discuss, but simply have people perform a spellcheck on your website.

-CryptoLutheran

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
That what we know as the doctrine of the Trinity is the theological formulation of the teaching which began with the Apostles and continued into and through the early patristic period.

This is a very assumptive statement that you made and according to sources such as Encyclopedia Britanica, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The New Catholic Encyclopedia, New Bible Dictionary 1982 and multiple other reputable sources, it is an incorrect one.

It is specifically stated that the Trinity was not a doctrine that was taught or implied by Jesus or his Apostles. Here is just one excerpt from multiple sources:

The New Encyclopedia Britannica – Micropedia – 15th Edition – Vol 11 – p. 928

“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.

This is just one of multiple reputable sources listed on my website.

ViaCrucis said:
The doctrine of the Trinity did not get its start from the Nicene or Athanasian Creeds; that's my point. It gets its start with the apostolic witness; that St. Paul never articulates what is finally formulated at Nicea, Constantinople, et al isn't the problem you think it is; because what is formulated at Nicea, Constantinople, et all is the result of what St. Paul did teach. It is St. Paul who says that in Christ is the fullness of Deity in bodily form, it is St. Paul (or at least someone speaking in his name) who declares Christ to be God (Titus 2:3), who says that Christ "though being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God...". These Christological statements are present, and this same language is used as time continued, with St. Ignatius (for example) saying "Our God Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Ephesians, 18:2), "God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life" (ibid. 19:3); or St. Justin, "Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God" (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 128). There is a continuum of faith and confession which is birthed in the experience of those who knew Christ, was preached by them, received by those to whom they preached, and who continued in their teaching--it is precisely this continuum and apostolic tradition that we see in the patristic writings and which, ultimately, is formulated in the Creeds and taught at length in the later fathers.

Contradictory to your statement, the Trinity did get its start from the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds according to reputable sources. I listed one source above, there are many more sources verifying this.

Here is another one:

New Bible Dictionary 1982

“The word Trinity is not found in the Bible…” “… it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.” “… it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formation of it can be found in the Bible…” “Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the Trinity,…”
”

or

"
New Catholic Encyclopedia

“The word Trinity is not found in the Bible… It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.” (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not… directly and immediately [the] word of God."

Regarding the scriptures you brought out:
You listed Titus 2:3 but this scripture is talking about the conduct of older women. Perhaps you meant Philippians 2:6.

Philippians 2:6 is what is commonly called a "Trinity text". This scripture was talked about on my website. Upon reviewing the interlinear of this scripture and multiple translations one will see Trinity bias in translation in multiple mainstream translations of this scripture. This is one of the scriptures I pointed out under the section called "Trinity texts study".

There is not an Ephesians 18:2 or ibid 19:3 in the 66 books of the Christian Scriptures Bible
There is also no St Justin or dialog with the Trypho chapter 128

Perhaps you are talking about the "deuterocanonical/"apocryphal" books" of Catholicism or some other books. These apocryphal books are highly debatable whether they should be included with the current 66 books of the Bible or not. This is a highly debatable topic.

What is certain is right now, those things you quoted are not in the 66 books of the Christian Bible and their is a reason for this.

ViaCrucis said:
I must say, it seems strange that you came to a discussion forum not to discuss, but simply have people perform a spellcheck on your website.

-CryptoLutheran

Strange or not is debatable and relative. The truth is, getting assistance in getting my website proof read for errors and for ease of use is the exact thing I am searching for from multiple people. I wouldn't have asked for this if this wasn't the main point.

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

Truth Seeker81 said:
This is a very assumptive statement that you made and according to sources such as Encyclopedia Britanica, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The New Catholic Encyclopedia, New Bible Dictionary 1982 and multiple other reputable sources, it is an incorrect one.

And I've been around the block long enough to know that you probably read quotes mined from all those sources in official Watchtower literature, and that is likely your primary source here.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

Truth Seeker81 said:
You listed Titus 2:3 but this scripture is talking about the conduct of older women. Perhaps you meant Philippians 2:6.

Typo. Titus 2:13.

-CryptoLutheran

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
And I've been around the block long enough to know that you probably read quotes mined from all those sources in official Watchtower literature, and that is likely your primary source here.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, I am one of YHWH's/Jehovah's Witnesses.
Psalms 83:18 King James Version
Isaiah 43:10

As with multiple other assertions you have made on this thread, you are also incorrect on the quoted assertion.

These are things anyone can research at their local large public library. I say large because some of these Encyclopedias and other authoritative sources are older and will have to be dug up from "the vault". At least with me they have to be. These are things I have researched myself and learned myself.

I made it a point on my website to tell people to search these things out for themselves. Don't trust me, don't trust your local church and your local preacher/priest just because I or they say something or because we sound authoritative or smart. I am neither. I do say though, trust God and the Scriptures. He will lead you to the right path if you earnestly ask this of him. I am confident of this. God/YHWH cares for you and so does his son (and our Messiah) Jesus. He is reaching out for you. Please listen. Time is soon approaching when we will all have to make an account for our lives. Pray about this extensively and research the Scriptures extensively. Compare the original Hebrew and Greek texts to how it is translated now. I talked about this extensively on the "introduction page" and throughout my site.

There are many tools out there now to translate the original Hebrew and Greek texts even if one can not speak Hebrew and Greek. "Google Translate" and other free "online translators", Hebrew and Greek speaking forums, interlinear Bibles, Bible concordances, the "Codex Sinaiticus". The list goes on. Please use all these tools and more to get to the bottom of this topic. I have used all of these tools. Please use them too so you can get to the truth. It may take a long time but maybe not. It took me years. Trust me when I tell you knowing the truth and seeing it for yourself, it is worth it.

The early church and their aligned governments used to kill people who did what I am doing now and what you can chose to do if you decide so; contradicting mainstream church teachings by reading various scriptures for myself and translating them from the Hebrew and Greek texts. What I am doing now would be considered heretical. How dare someone say Jesus is not God but his only begotten son?! How dare I say that the Trinity is a man made doctrine?! These are things people got burned at the stake for. I am sure many of us have heard of the Spanish Inquisition of the early Catholic church. If not, there is a good documentary on PBS about it I recommend checking out.

One may make the argument that their particular church is small, non affiliated and non denominational so these things do not apply to them. No matter the size of one's church, whether it only consists of a few members, or millions of members (and everything in between) and no matter whether denominational or non denominational, if the church teaches the Trinity, then that church is Trinitarian. All Trinitarian churches whether started recently or not have their roots in the Catholic/Orthodox church and its teachings regarding the Trinity.

As was discussed on this thread and on my website, the Trinity doctrine is an invention of man that came about well after Jesus and his apostles time. Centuries later. It came about for various reasons. The reasons can be discovered by doing your own research. Please do your own research and get to the bottom of this.

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Sea Horse · Aug 31, 2017

tstor said:
What?

What ? 1 John 5:7
:satisfied:

just noticed that this wicked bible on this site has this verse wrong

KJV 1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

awitch · Aug 31, 2017

As long as we're on the topic, what's the significance of the nature of the Trinity exactly? Are there any real world implications?

I ask because we have trinity deities here in Pagan land and sometimes they are presented as three distinct entities, and other times they are presented as three aspects of the same deity, but either way, it's not really that big a deal.

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