LDS High-ranking Mormon leader excommunicated

BigDaddy4 · Aug 22, 2017

Peter1000 said:
One of the excommunication events in the bible is the death of Ananias and Sapphira. Hope I'm not excommunicated that way.

The bible does talk about repentence, but it does not go through an excommunication process in detail as far as I know.

So LDS rely on current revelation from Jesus Christ and we follow the instructions that he reveals to our prophets. Current instructions for current events is more helpful than instructions given for 2,000 year old events. Although in most cases, the instructions are similar, but not always the same.

That is the problem that the Jews got into. Always looking back and hedging up the Word of God given to them 1400 years before, and therefore not able to bear the current Word of God and changes that needed to be made from the OT to the NT. Jews could not make that jump because it did not match up with their past scriptures. They are basically a dead religion today because they are so stuck in the past and the traditions are so deeply intrenched, it does not allow them to hear the Word of God today.

The church did not "excommunicate" Ananias and Sapphira; the Holy Spirit killed them. There was no excommunication process because there was (and still is) no church membership requirement in the Bible. The lds cannot "restore" something that was never there. Therefore, they must be following "sinful men" instead of the Holy Spirit, especially when dealing with members who leave their church, as in the OP.

Peter1000 · Aug 22, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
The church did not "excommunicate" Ananias and Sapphira; the Holy Spirit killed them. There was no excommunication process because there was (and still is) no church membership requirement in the Bible. The lds cannot "restore" something that was never there. Therefore, they must be following "sinful men" instead of the Holy Spirit, especially when dealing with members who leave their church, as in the OP.

In a way, they were excommunicated since they left the church, suddenly. You could say in a way, the HS excommunicated them.

Lets look at Acts 2 and see what it takes to get added to the church.

Acts 2:38-47King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The men were pricked in their hearts as Peter testified about Jesus. The men then asked Peter what should they do. Peter gives them a list of what they do next. Repent, be baptized, and receive the HS.

The scripture then says they gladly received his word, were baptized and were added to the church. So there seems to be some requirements for entry into the Church of Jesus Christ.
1) you certainly need to believe in Jesus because of a witness from the HS
2) repent
3) be baptized for the remission of sins
4) recieve the constant companionship of the HS
5) be willing to sell all that you have and give to all men as every man had need

Ananias and Sapphira didn't buy completely into #5 above, and their membership was cancelled immediately.

Rescued One · Aug 22, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
Is the lds excommunication process Biblical? Or is it man made?

I haven't found the verse that says, "Confess your sins to the bishop."

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 4
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

God hears me when I talk to Him, and He always sees my heart.

Jane_Doe · Aug 22, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
I haven't found the verse that says, "Confess your sins to the bishop."

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 4
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

God hears me when I talk to Him, and He always sees my heart.

Did you remove the Book of James from your Bible?

Rescued One · Aug 22, 2017

James 5:16
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

If a person's fault is a sin he can ask God for forgiveness and be forgiven. If that person wants a Christian brother or sister to pray for him to overcome a bad habit, he can do that. There is no mention of needing to confess sins to a bishop.

Jane_Doe · Aug 22, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
James 5:16
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

If a person's fault is a sin he can ask God for forgiveness and be forgiven. If that person wants a Christian brother or sister to pray for him to overcome a bad habit, he can do that. There is no mention of needing to confess sins to a bishop.

You skipped verse 15.

A person is not supposed to go and face off with the devil alone. We, as a church, are supposed to help each other. Even Evangelicals believe that.

ViaCrucis · Aug 23, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
It wasn't for apostasy but a personal problem for which he needs to repent. Excommunication is the Lord's formal breaking of the covenant a person interned into on their baptism day. It allows the person to start over. He will go through the process of repenting, more than likely he went in and confessed his sin himself and sometime soon he will be re-baptized.

Rebaptized?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Aug 23, 2017

Excommunication, in traditional Christianity, is a pretty specific thing, and what it means can be seen in the word itself. Excommunication refers to barring a person from receiving the Holy Eucharist, and it's generally a very temporary thing. In Eastern Orthodox practice the individual excommunicates him or herself in order to address personal issues that need to be addressed (I suspect that this follows from Jesus' command that if we have an issue with our brother to resolve that issue before coming to the altar).

Because the Eucharist is understood as the central emblem of the Church--it's where the Church is truly the Church, because here is Christ's body and blood given for us where we are also Christ's own body--to be cut off from the Eucharist is not insignificant.

The purpose of all excommunication, whether one does it themselves or if their priest, bishop, etc does it as a point of discipline serves ultimately to call a person to repentance.

The word has often come to mean something like "kicked out of a/the church", that sort of disciplinary action however is generally only used for the most extreme cases, for example someone publicly and openly preaching and teaching heresy--it is still done with the hope that the excommunicated will repent and return to the Church, though it is also possible to use it as a political or power tool (and that's dangerous). Excommunication should never be used as a punishment, and it should never be used to manipulate. And discipline should be always understood as a very different thing than punishment; discipline builds up, punishment punches down.

-CryptoLutheran

Rescued One · Aug 23, 2017

ViaCruci s said:
Rebaptized?

-CryptoLutheran

When members need to have certain blessings withheld, the Lord’s object is to teach as well as to discipline. So probation, disfellowshipment, and excommunication, when they become necessary, are ideally accompanied by eventual reinstatement and restoration of blessings...

I’ve known a few rebellious people who disregard the commandments and are influenced by the evil one or by other rebellious people to transgress God’s laws. I’ve seen their distress and pain. I’ve also seen their joy when, humbled and fully repentant, they have returned to the Church and have had all their blessings restored...

The First Presidency has instructed that disciplinary councils must be held in cases of murder, incest, or apostasy. A disciplinary council must also be held when a prominent Church leader commits a serious transgression, when the transgressor is a predator who may be a threat to other persons, when the person shows a pattern of repeated serious transgressions, when a serious transgression is widely known, and when the transgressor is guilty of serious deceptive practices and false representations or other terms of fraud or dishonesty in business transactions.

Disciplinary councils may also be convened to consider a member’s standing in the Church following serious transgression such as abortion, transsexual operation, attempted murder, rape, forcible sexual abuse, intentionally inflicting serious physical injuries on others, adultery, fornication, homosexual relations, child abuse (sexual or physical), spouse abuse, deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities, robbery, burglary, embezzlement, theft, sale of illegal drugs, fraud, perjury, or false swearing.

Excommunication is the most severe judgment a Church disciplinary council can take. Excommunicated persons are no longer members of the Church. Therefore, they are denied the privileges of Church membership, including the wearing of temple garments and the payment of tithes and offerings. They may attend public Church meetings, but, like disfellowshipped persons, their participation in such meetings is limited. Excommunicated persons are encouraged to repent and so live as to qualify for eventual baptism.

(Note: they are speaking of re-baptism.)
A Chance to Start Over: Church Disciplinary Councils and the Restoration of Blessings - Ensign Sept. 1990 - ensign

Rescued One · Aug 23, 2017

For Mormons who want to make accusations against my posts, I believe the Bible is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit is my teacher and guide, and Mormon interpretations of said verses do not sway me.

Jane_Doe · Aug 23, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Rebaptized?

-CryptoLutheran

For LDS, baptism is a covenant a believer makes with the the Lord. It is not something done to you or scar- it's a promise you choose to make with Him. Under normal circumstances (aka not excommunication), a person can dishonor this covenant, such as when we sin. We also renew this covenant when we partake of the Lord's Supper.

Excommunication is something done only under extreme circumstances- such a unrepentant major sin (for example continuing adultery), and only after other options have been thoroughly investigated. When a person is excommunicated, they are released from covenants they made with the Lord. Hopefully eventually they will repent of their sins and return to the Lord. At this time they will once again make that baptismal covenant with the Lord (aka be re-baptized).

Jane_Doe · Aug 23, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
For Mormons who want to make accusations against my posts, I believe the Bible is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit is my teacher and guide, and Mormon interpretations of said verses do not sway me.

If you are uninterested in hearing Mormon responses, would it not be logical to not post (or create) Mormon specific threads?

BigDaddy4 · Aug 23, 2017

Peter1000 said:
In a way, they were excommunicated since they left the church, suddenly. You could say in a way, the HS excommunicated them.

Lets look at Acts 2 and see what it takes to get added to the church.

Acts 2:38-47King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The men were pricked in their hearts as Peter testified about Jesus. The men then asked Peter what should they do. Peter gives them a list of what they do next. Repent, be baptized, and receive the HS.

The scripture then says they gladly received his word, were baptized and were added to the church. So there seems to be some requirements for entry into the Church of Jesus Christ.
1) you certainly need to believe in Jesus because of a witness from the HS
2) repent
3) be baptized for the remission of sins
4) recieve the constant companionship of the HS
5) be willing to sell all that you have and give to all men as every man had need

Ananias and Sapphira didn't buy completely into #5 above, and their membership was cancelled immediately.

I guess YOU could say that, but then you would be incorrect. Again.

Of the 3,000 that were added, where did they worship? Where was their physical church that they supposedly became members of? The "membership" was into the collective body of Christ, not a physical church or location.

5) is a misuse of Scripture. There is no such requirement. Those that did, did so freely. Even so, verse 45 only states they sold goods and possessions. Does not say ALL their goods or possessions.

withwonderingawe · Aug 23, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Excommunication, in traditional Christianity, is a pretty specific thing, and what it means can be seen in the word itself. Excommunication refers to barring a person from receiving the Holy Eucharist, and it's generally a very temporary thing. In Eastern Orthodox practice the individual excommunicates him or herself in order to address personal issues that need to be addressed (I suspect that this follows from Jesus' command that if we have an issue with our brother to resolve that issue before coming to the altar).

Because the Eucharist is understood as the central emblem of the Church--it's where the Church is truly the Church, because here is Christ's body and blood given for us where we are also Christ's own body--to be cut off from the Eucharist is not insignificant.

The purpose of all excommunication, whether one does it themselves or if their priest, bishop, etc does it as a point of discipline serves ultimately to call a person to repentance.

The word has often come to mean something like "kicked out of a/the church", that sort of disciplinary action however is generally only used for the most extreme cases, for example someone publicly and openly preaching and teaching heresy--it is still done with the hope that the excommunicated will repent and return to the Church, though it is also possible to use it as a political or power tool (and that's dangerous). Excommunication should never be used as a punishment, and it should never be used to manipulate. And discipline should be always understood as a very different thing than punishment; discipline builds up, punishment punches down.

-CryptoLutheran

The word discipline and disciple come from the same root. The discipline court is to help the disciple get his life back in line with Christ. There are several layers here. Most of discipline is done completely privately. Most end up with the person agreeing not to partake of the sacrament for a period of time and to visit with the Stake president or Bishop once a week or so. Excommunication is severe and comes usually for on going adultery or putting your hand in the till. There was a Bishop who was caught stealing the tithing money, he was excommunicated and a year later he was re-baptized. About 10 years later he was called once again to be a Bishop in the very same Ward. It was a complete repentance and forgiveness. There was a woman in my mother's ward who was excommunicated for adultery, a year later she was re-baptized and a few years later she was Stake Relief Society Compassionate leader. If anyone had compassion she did.

BigDaddy4 · Aug 23, 2017

Jane_Doe said:
You skipped verse 15.

A person is not supposed to go and face off with the devil alone. We, as a church, are supposed to help each other. Even Evangelicals believe that.

the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

There's verse 15. Where is the mention of confessing sins to a bishop??

Peter1000 · Aug 23, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
I guess YOU could say that, but then you would be incorrect. Again.

Of the 3,000 that were added, where did they worship? Where was their physical church that they supposedly became members of? The "membership" was into the collective body of Christ, not a physical church or location.

5) is a misuse of Scripture. There is no such requirement. Those that did, did so freely. Even so, verse 45 only states they sold goods and possessions. Does not say ALL their goods or possessions.

You are correct, at that time the church did not have cathedrals, but the members met in their homes, and other places to worship. It does say that the Lord added daily to the church. Church meaning the collective body of Christ.

5) was not a requirement, but if you were unwilling to participate in this communal event, you may not have become a new person in Christ, who revealed to the apostles that this is the way to elliminate poverty. So if you did not have enough faith to follow the apostles, it would indicate you really were not willing to follow Jesus. Not a requirement for membership, but an indication of ones faith. That is why I said a willingness to follow the apostles.

Peter1000 · Aug 23, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

There's verse 15. Where is the mention of confessing sins to a bishop??

There is a little more detail to this process found in this same chapter.
James 5:14-16
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

First - James tells us that if there is any that are sick, let them call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

Do you know any church that follows this instruction from James?

Second - the members of the church are told to confess their faults one to another, and pray one for another.

In the first century church, Jesus gave the apostles the keys of the KOH. That whatsoever they bind or whatsoever they loose on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven. IOW, the apostles had the authority to forgive sins on earth and heaven would recognize that forgiveness. The apostles, as they set up churches in the world, gave that authority to the bishop of the different churches. If someone had a fault, James said they were to confess their sins to one another (including the bishop who had the keys to forgive your fault).

I have always believed that for certain faults, I can go directly to the Lord and confess to him and repent and not do them again, I am clean. But I also believe there are certain faults which are more heinous than others that need to be taken before the Lord, and before the bishop, and others for disciplinary measures necessary to be forgiven of this fault. That is the way Jesus set up the forgiving process for his church.

What do you think James means for us to confess our faults to one another?

BigDaddy4 · Aug 23, 2017

Peter1000 said:
You are correct, at that time the church did not have cathedrals, but the members met in their homes, and other places to worship. It does say that the Lord added daily to the church. Church meaning the collective body of Christ.

5) was not a requirement, but if you were unwilling to participate in this communal event, you may not have become a new person in Christ, who revealed to the apostles that this is the way to elliminate poverty. So if you did not have enough faith to follow the apostles, it would indicate you really were not willing to follow Jesus. Not a requirement for membership, but an indication of ones faith. That is why I said a willingness to follow the apostles.

You still miss the mark and clearly do not understand Scripture. Christ never revealed a way to eliminate poverty. Instead, he said we will always have the poor (Mark 14:7, Matthew 26:11). In fact, in Mark 14:7, Jesus goes a step further and says "and you can help them if you want".

BigDaddy4 · Aug 23, 2017

Peter1000 said:
There is a little more detail to this process found in this same chapter.
James 5:14-16
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

First - James tells us that if there is any that are sick, let them call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

Do you know any church that follows this instruction from James?

Second - the members of the church are told to confess their faults one to another, and pray one for another.

In the first century church, Jesus gave the apostles the keys of the KOH. That whatsoever they bind or whatsoever they loose on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven. IOW, the apostles had the authority to forgive sins on earth and heaven would recognize that forgiveness. The apostles, as they set up churches in the world, gave that authority to the bishop of the different churches. If someone had a fault, James said they were to confess their sins to one another (including the bishop who had the keys to forgive your fault).

I have always believed that for certain faults, I can go directly to the Lord and confess to him and repent and not do them again, I am clean. But I also believe there are certain faults which are more heinous than others that need to be taken before the Lord, and before the bishop, and others for disciplinary measures necessary to be forgiven of this fault. That is the way Jesus set up the forgiving process for his church.

What do you think James means for us to confess our faults to one another?

Still does not answer the question regarding a Biblical requirement to confess your sins to your bishop. Clearly a man made requirement. No Biblical support can be found.

dzheremi · Aug 23, 2017

Huh. In the more traditional/hierarchical churches (Orthodox, Catholic), laypeople do not confess to bishops. They confess to the priest(s) of their parish, since these are the leaders of the local community, who actually know them by virtue of seeing them so often. The frequency and exact form of confession may vary greatly (e.g., Orthodox confession, which is face to face with the priest, where you are both before the Lord vs. Roman Catholic confession, which is usually in a confessional box behind a screen, to preserve your anonmity so as to hopefully prompt you to be more honest and forthright), but I am unaware of any where bishops are alerted to hear confessions of laypersons. Maybe there are some extraordinary cases that I am unaware of, but those would be highly unusual. I think I met my bishop, HG Bishop Youssef, when I was in the Southwest twice during the 4 years I was there. (And I confessed a lot more frequently than twice in that entire period.)

(Although I feel compelled to say here that in the case of the Armenians the situation is a bit more complicated, as it almost always is...which is interesting, given the extreme antiquity of both Armenian Christianity in general and the national Church of that people in particular; as the world's oldest national Church, it's kind of a window on the past that should put to rest some of the more fantastic claims about what the early Church apparently did, according to Mormons who make self-interested claims about the practice of the early Church. Notice there's still no confession to a bishop there. Huh.)

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