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Mormons haven't given us a verse that says taking the sacrament grants anyone forgiveness of sins. There is no such verse.
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LDS Mormon view: the strait and narrow way
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Yes he was always sinless but not always perfect he said himself "and the third day I shall be perfected." Luke 13:32
By the pain and sorrow which He was willing to suffer for us He earned the right to be called Savior, Redeemer and Judge.
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It's like the Jews in Mal 1 and their offering of polluted bread.
1 Cor 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
In remembrance of his blood and body which was broken for us, to pay for our sins. Each time we partake of this symbols we are taking upon us again the name of Christ and he is once again forgiving us of our sins.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
We need to examine our life since we last partook and repent of our sins so we can take it worthily.
1 Cor 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
In remembrance of his blood and body which was broken for us, to pay for our sins. Each time we partake of this symbols we are taking upon us again the name of Christ and he is once again forgiving us of our sins.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
We need to examine our life since we last partook and repent of our sins so we can take it worthily.
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BigDaddy4
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Once again, you take things out of context to fit your religion. The actual usage of "perfected" means to complete or accomplish a goal. On the third day, his earthly mission to live, die, and be resurrected was to be completed. To say that Jesus was not always perfect is an incorrect usage of the term and leads to bad theology. If Jesus was ever NOT perfect, then his sacrifice meant nothing. Only a perfect sacrifice would accomplish God's plan of redemption, and only one person could accomplish that - Jesus.
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God doesn't have to earn anything! The Creator has the right to do as He pleases. KJV uses the word perfected which in Greek is a synonym for completed, accomplished. On the third day the Atonement was accomplished according to plan.
Luke 13 ESV
32 And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.'
Luke 13 NIV
32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'
Strong's Concordance
teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Short Definition: I complete, accomplish, make perfect
Definition: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.
May you find joy in these words.
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And that is the point which I think Phoebe miss understands. His righteousness was always perfect or complete, it was always 'thy will be done'. But, He had his agency not to go to the cross, he could have said no way and refused to go. If he had rebelled then he would not have the right to be called Savior and we would all be eternally lost. His resurrection made him perfectly complete, he now had an immortal body which would never die again.
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Okay this is a major theological question, Could God save us without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord?
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No,
Heb 11
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The Law of sacrifice was looking forward to the atonement but it was a dead law, it could not save. Until Christ atone for their sins they were unsaved. Once that was done then; Matt 27: 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection,...
They were forgiven and they were part of the first resurrection
Heb 11
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The Law of sacrifice was looking forward to the atonement but it was a dead law, it could not save. Until Christ atone for their sins they were unsaved. Once that was done then; Matt 27: 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection,...
They were forgiven and they were part of the first resurrection
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BigDaddy4
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You are correct that the law could not save. However, you are incorrect that salvation came through Christ per your reference of Matt 27:52. That is talking about resurrection, not salvation.
OT salvation is the same as NT salvation - by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The OT pointed to God and the coming Messiah (Jesus). It was that faith in God's promise that saved them. The NT is the Messiah who came, and our faith in Jesus is what saves us.
Abraham, who lived before the Law was given, was saved by faith in God. See Romans 4:3 where Paul confirms this - “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness”. Same with David as Paul writes a few verses later (Romans 4:6-8). Paul ties the OT salvation and NT salvation together in Romans 4:23-24.
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I take it then that you believe God could have saved us without any atoning sacrifice? So he could have just skipped the whole bitter cup and crucifixion thing? He didn't need to have Christ suffer so much, but just did it anyways?
Do you see how skewed this idea you are endorsing sounds?
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He couldn't say No, because His nature is, was, and always will be holy. He loves His sheep. He's called the Good Shepherd.
John 15
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
And Christ shared these words before His crucifixion:
John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Isaiah 43
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
May you see the truth in these words.
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Phoebe: do you believe that Christ was stripped of the ability to choose, like a programmed robot?
Or do you believe that Christ always choose righteousness?
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So taking the sacrament isn't the reason your sins are forgiven, nor does it guarantee forgiveness to everyone who takes it.
1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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Oh one hand I agree with you, the Father would never had chosen him if there was the slightest chance he would falter however he wasn't forced to go, he had his free will to choose to go to the cross.
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He wasn't a spirit child of heavenly parents. He was fully God forever (even from everlasting). He wasn't chosen from a plethora of children. God can't be forced. He is the Omnipotent Ruler.
No one could take His life from Him; he laid it down for His sheep.
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So: do you believe that Christ was stripped of the ability to choose, like a programmed robot?
Or do you believe that Christ always choose righteousness?
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