well some scriptures use "God" to describe an angel or agent of God would take that into consideration also.Genesis 32:22-32
It's not like I have never read this passage before. But for some reason, it may just be that I'm tired, but I can't wrap my head around why this is significant.
My first question may be naive but was that actually God in human form? I am just confused because God sent Jesus down in the New Testament in human form and that's the only time God has ever claimed to come down to Earth.
My second question is what does it mean? My interpretation of it is this, but I'm not quite sure. God fought Jacob for a long time because maybe Jacob was angry with Him. It's a meaningless effort for us to try to fight Him because God doesn't ever let up. But this theory was debunked when God actually dislocated his hip, Genesis 32:25
I just seem to be confused on this for some reason, it's bothering me because I cannot seem to grasp the significance of it. Any ideas?
Genesis 32:22-32
My second question is what does it mean? My interpretation of it is this, but I'm not quite sure. God fought Jacob for a long time because maybe Jacob was angry with Him. It's a meaningless effort for us to try to fight Him because God doesn't ever let up. But this theory was debunked when God actually dislocated his hip, Genesis 32:25
I just seem to be confused on this for some reason, it's bothering me because I cannot seem to grasp the significance of it. Any ideas?
What are you talking about? He wrenched his hip, last time I checked He did nothing to his pelvis or testiclesThe angel gave Jacob a hernia. He was not able to have more sons after this. It was common to touch someone ball's in that time to close an agreement or a vow etc (see Genesis 24:2-3). After the angel yanked on them Jacob said you now have to make some deal with me.
that's what I was thinking tbhWhat are you talking about? He wrenched his hip, last time I checked He did nothing to his pelvis or testicles
Jacob refused to let go of the man before the man had blessed Jacob.
Now in scripture one who is greater blesses the one who is lesser.
As did Melchizedek King of Salem bless Abraham, And Christ was called after the order of Melchizedek
Joshua 23, v8, tells us to hold fast to the Lord your God.
Jacob also held God close not desiring to let go of Him.
Mary also clung to Christ when she saw Him in the garden.
So we see a spiritual principle at play here in the wrestling of Jacob with God.
Jacob was to meet Esau and wrestled with God refusing to let go until he received the blessing. If you read further, Jacob had his concerns over meeting Esau.
6 Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left, 7 and lest you go among these nations, these who remain among you. You shall not make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause anyone to swear by them; you shall not serve them nor bow down to them, 8 but you shall hold fast to the Lord your God, as you have done to this day.
There's the birthright and the blessing...We could presume this,if Jacob had not already received the blessing from God.
Here we find Isaac giving his blessing and instructions to Jacob:
Genesis: 28. 1. And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2. Arise, go to Padan-aram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3. And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4. And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
Here we find God Blessing Jacob,and Jacob making a covenant of tithing to the Lord,this would be synonymous with Abraham and Melchizedek:
Genesis: 28. 11. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 12. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. 17. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. 18. And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19. And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21. So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
We have the completion of the blessing from God in ch. 28
Jacob already had the Blessing ,why would he need wrestle with God to recieve it again?
There is no mention of God or a Angel meeting Jacob that night,all Gods Word states is that a man met Jacob.
What are you talking about? He wrenched his hip, last time I checked He did nothing to his pelvis or testicles
We could presume this,if Jacob had not already received the blessing from God.
Here we find Isaac giving his blessing and instructions to Jacob:
Genesis: 28. 1. And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2. Arise, go to Padan-aram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3. And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4. And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
Here we find God Blessing Jacob,and Jacob making a covenant of tithing to the Lord,this would be synonymous with Abraham and Melchizedek:
Genesis: 28. 11. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. 12. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. 17. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. 18. And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19. And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21. So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
We have the completion of the blessing from God in ch. 28
Jacob already had the Blessing ,why would he need wrestle with God to recieve it again?
There is no mention of God or a Angel meeting Jacob that night,all Gods Word states is that a man met Jacob.
I suppose all you want is one blessing from God?
There's the birthright and the blessing...
God Bless!
Ok, the question is a presupposition that has no foundation of truth relating to the topic.
I could ask, was your conclusion derived from other events in the Bible in other Books ,with different people and circumstances?
I do not want a debate to go on and on,I do not want to debate at all.
So I will answer your rhetorical question.
The Blessing for God is not a one time event.
We find Jacob after receiving the Blessing at Bethel ,having a abundance of blessings in Children ,Cattle ,Wives and over all wealth.
All anyone ever needs is God's Blessing.
If we look at salvation and the Grace given to us though Christ ,we understand God's Blessing is limitless.
God told Jacob this in chapter 27
Genesis: 28. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Does this statement only mean one Blessing?
Genesis: 28. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
This was God's promise to all Israel does this look like a singular Blessing?
Jacob in chapter 32 was afraid of Esau ,that he would hold a grudge over His birthright.
Genesis: 32. 7. Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands; 8. And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.
This is what God's Word says ,if anyone wants to wonder all across text ,move forward 500 years to validate a presumption it's fine by me.
Genesis: 32. 24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
I would expect God or a Angel to know His name.
It had been years since Esau had seen Jacob and they were at night wrestling.
It's logic plain and simple God does not ask illogical questions ,such as what is your name,after Blessing him in chapter 27.
Thanks for the discussion, I am done debating this though.
True, but why didn't He say it was Jesus on Earth at that time?And God includes the Person of Jesus His Son. But He was not here in human form in a human body.
YHWH walked around in the garden with Adam and Eve.Genesis 32:22-32
It's not like I have never read this passage before. But for some reason, it may just be that I'm tired, but I can't wrap my head around why this is significant.
My first question may be naive but was that actually God in human form? I am just confused because God sent Jesus down in the New Testament in human form and that's the only time God has ever claimed to come down to Earth.
God appears in multiple forms to men and women in the Old Testament.My second question is what does it mean? My interpretation of it is this, but I'm not quite sure. God fought Jacob for a long time because maybe Jacob was angry with Him. It's a meaningless effort for us to try to fight Him because God doesn't ever let up. But this theory was debunked when God actually dislocated his hip, Genesis 32:25
I just seem to be confused on this for some reason, it's bothering me because I cannot seem to grasp the significance of it. Any ideas?
Ok, but for the sake of others I will post a response. Following your logic about this only being a man, who was the man who met Joshua? Certainly it says a man, but this was not an ordinary man.
Christ is also the Son of Man.
Joshua 5
13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?”
15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.
Some have entertained angels unawares, their eyes would behold a man.
This is just how the scripture text is written, but for Jacob and Joshua, these described as 'men' in scripture, revealed their nature as not being men, yet they looked like a man.
Ok my Brother,the no foul between Christians.
I cannot reconcile a connection between Jacob and Joshua.
I do not deny Angels appear as men and Christ was man himself during his time here.
The event in Joshua was a form of syntax, that was for a completely different circumstance.
We know Joshua was about to engage in battle,future tense.
We also know Jacob was blessed at Bethel,past tense.
The two Books are separated by Rhetorical modes,and the events are hundreds of years apart.
Our points of view are different yet we can celebrate the efforts we both put into this.
GOD Bless.
The text actually uses two terms to describe that fourth person in the fire (Daniel 3:24-28), both as a man and as an angel. Both descriptions (man or angel) seem to contradict one another, this contradiction in the description of the fourth person results from a poor translation. The Hebrew word used to derive, 'angel', in the English language is the word, 'malak', which means a messenger, especially the messenger of a leader or king. I would not use the English word, 'angel', but the word 'messenger' in the translation.There is only thing that I notice you said here that confuses me. In scripture there it says the fourth is like a son of the gods. Therefore, there seems to be some doubt who this fourth man is.
The Word becomes flesh at Bethlehem (John 1:14) and is then called Jesus at that moment, before the incarnation at Bethlehem the Word is not called Jesus.If you are referring to Jesus, which is what it seems, He was the Son of the God. Not a son of the gods. I agree that He has sent angels down as a form of Him, but here it states that it was actually God. What I meant was that never in the Bible have I seen it talked about that He has ever come in the form of a human except in the New Testament as Jesus.
Genesis 32:22-32
It's not like I have never read this passage before. But for some reason, it may just be that I'm tired, but I can't wrap my head around why this is significant.
My first question may be naive but was that actually God in human form? ...