"Ask Jesus Into Your Heart"???

thesunisout said:

As far as what I understand, through grace God gives us faith to believe the gospel. Once we have saving faith, God credits it to us as righteousness and seals us for eternity through the Holy Spirit. It is through the Spirit that we are baptized into the body of Christ. According to that scripture I quoted Jesus dwells in our hearts through faith. It is our faith which makes us right with God, that is why Jesus can dwell in our hearts.

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I think we ought to be careful; the righteousness which we have through faith is the righteousness of Jesus Himself. It's not ours, nor do we earn it by faith; it is given to us through faith. Christ alone is Righteous; for this reason when Scripture says, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" (Romans 6:3) and "As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." (Galatians 3:27), the baptized has put on Christ, been clothed with Christ, has died with Christ to be made alive in Christ: "But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him." (Romans 6:8) and "So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!" (2 Corinthians 5:17). The Apostle likewise says, " For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:19-20).

This righteousness is alien, not our own, it is Christ's for Christ is the Just One, He who though being God became man, emptied Himself, and was obedient event to the point of death on the cross (Philippians 2:6-8); by grace, through faith God unites us to Christ and what Christ has done, thereby we have Christ's own righteousness and we are therefore just on Christ's account. It is all Christ's and from Christ, such that we are now sons and daughters (Romans 8:17, Galatians 4:7), having adopted us (Ephesians 1:5), and all other things Scripture says, even that we have been seated in heavenly places with Christ (Ephesians 2:6). Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) and we in Christ; for we belong to Him (1 Corinthians 1:23).

-CryptoLutheran

Symph said:

And to take it a step further, God makes it clear he is a personal God who wants to be involved in this, he practically screams it at us. The idea that he's too sovereign to decide something based on what we ask or say or do is... our God tries to make it clear he's a person like us who wants to be involved, that means not IGNORED. He says he stands at the door and knocks, he doesn't say he barges in, he's waiting for you to ask him to come in. It's not because he's weak, it's the opposite, it's because he's strong enough to respect the will of lowly beings such as us. Of course he wants us to ask, and not just for Him but for everything that furthers his will in our lives.

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Well, the reason I didn't quote that verse is because it was directed to the Laodician church. That is an exhortation to lukewarm Christians to let the Lord back into their hearts. The reason we know they are Christians is because Jesus threatened to eject them from His body.

I agree with what you're saying in general but there are some specific verses which deal with Gods sovereignty which aren't exactly making it all cut and dry, at least from my understanding. It is something which has been debated for centuries. I don't take a definitive position on it but I lean much more towards Gods sovereignty than I do the free will of His creatures.

We do know though that Adam and Eve had a real choice because God told them not to do it, and He didn't take away their opportunity to do it. However, He didn't coerce them to do it either. It is clear that He didn't want them to do it but because they freely chose to do it He punished them by cursing the Earth and a few other judgments. How this all fits into what you're saying I am not sure..

thesunisout said:

Well, the reason I didn't quote that verse is because it was directed to the Laodician church. That is an exhortation to lukewarm Christians to let the Lord back into their hearts. The reason we know they are Christians is because Jesus threatened to eject them from His body.

I agree with what you're saying in general but there are some specific verses which deal with Gods sovereignty which aren't exactly making it all cut and dry, at least from my understanding. It is something which has been debated for centuries. I don't take a definitive position on it but I lean much more towards Gods sovereignty than I do the free will of His creatures.

We do know though that Adam and Eve had a real choice because God told them not to do it, and He didn't take away their opportunity to do it. However, He didn't coerce them to do it either. It is clear that He didn't want them to do it but because they freely chose to do it He punished them by cursing the Earth and a few other judgments. How this all fits into what you're saying I am not sure..

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Oh I get lost in these kinds of discussions all the time, no problem, and your post made sense. And yeah I mean, I only kind of understand the debate, that apathea stuff was... hard to grasp. But I just... I don't put much stalk in the scholarly opinions or the fact that things have always been controversial or unsettled. I feel it's plenty obvious where the heart problems lie with most situations, even ones people THINK are hard to settle. Not in this thread because it'd be too off topic, (wait, I'm used to forums caring about that stuff, do you guys care about that stuff?) but yeah I'd be curious to go through these verses, see the context and see what it's plainly saying. The bible is a plain book written in spiritual language, a spiritual heart can discern it and a faithful heart can explain it.

Dear jimmyjimmy. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 45 we are told: on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. These two Commandments are of great truth. God made us in His image and God is Love. Jesus died for us, that we might live. What could be more important? The Bible tells us: Give up our selfishness and love for being unfriendly and unhelpful. What does God want from us?? Love and Joy , and Compassion.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told; ask and you shall receive. We ask for love and joy, and compassion, then we thank God and share all love, joy and compassion, with our neighbour. (all we know and all we meet.) God sees our love for each other, and god will know our hearts: we love God and we wish to live for His Glory. Love is very catching, let us try to love and care for all around us, and show God our love and thankfulness. I say this with love, jimmyjimy. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you," (2 Corinthians 6:17).

Jesus says we can abide in Him,

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,
ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." (John 15:7).

So this whole notion that Jesus cannot live inside us is bogus and wrong.

1 John 5:12 says,
"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."


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jimmyjimmy said:

I'm glad that the disciples didn't follow your advice. There would no Christianity today if they had. . .

The gospel is news - good news; therefore, it must be proclaimed. News is spoken, not lived. My life, interesting or not, is not the gospel. Christ's life and death is both the content and the attraction. It's not about me. It's about Him.

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You do not understand that the intended goal or purpose of the gospel or what it was set out to accomplish.

Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14 say that Jesus gave (crucified) Himself so that Christ might sanctify the church with the Holy Scriptures so as to make the church holy, and without blemish, spot, redeem them from all iniquity (sin), and so that they may be zealous of good works (Also compare with 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

"...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

This is the meat of the Word that you cannot accept. So you will stick with only the milk (i.e. the gospel message that you initially heard). See 1 Corinthians 2-3.

But James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17).
The author of Hebrews says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
John says, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).
John says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).


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Jason0047 said:

No. That is not the point James was making. James was making a point about how if one's faith is all belief alone with no works, their faith is dead. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). This would include the Eternal Security Proponent's belief that they are trusting in the finished work of Christ (and yet not bringing forth any fruit from such a trust in Christ).

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That is the point that James was making in James 2:19. The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31). Their trust and reliance is in satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

You said, "this would include the Eternal Security Proponent's belief that they are trusting in the finished work of Christ (and yet not bringing forth any fruit from such a trust in Christ)." Is that what this is about? Attacking the Eternal Security of the believer? We know that faith without works is dead. Genuine faith produces works (and dead faith produces no works) but that does not mean that we are saved by works, as I will explain below.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

*James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Light of the East said:

Because this says nothing about "accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in the Evangelical understanding." Paul is giving assurance to the believers who were already baptized but who were being told by the Jewish members of the Circumcision Party that they weren't really Christians because they were not circumcised. This was a lifelong battle Paul fought with these Jews, and the whole book of Galatians is about this one thing.

Lily of Valleys said:

How are you able to read into the text with Bible verses such as this?

no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

And what else could apostle Paul mean when he said what he said if you read this passage in context?

But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say?

“The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”

(that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

(Romans 10:6-13)

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The theme of the book of Romans is about the gift of the righteousness of God as our justification which is received through faith in Christ. I haven't quoted anything from the book of Galatians.

Danthemailman said:

That is the point that James was making in James 2:19. The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31). Their trust and reliance is in satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

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While one MUST have a belief (trust) on Jesus as their Savior to be initially and ultimately saved, James point was not about this. Read back up at the beginning of James 2, my friend. He was talking about not having respect of persons. The problem is that the church he was writing to was regarding the rich or financially well brethren, but they did not regard the poor brethren. Then James mentions the "Royal Law" under the New Testament to love your neighbor in regards to respect of persons. He says if they break this "Royal Law", then they are guilty of breaking all of God's good laws today. Then James moves into talking about how faith without works is a dead kind of faith. Not loving the brethren is James whole argument or basis (foundation) for a faith without works is dead and or a demon belief type faith. The whole argument leads to a faith without works. It is not about a faith without trusting in the finished work of Christ. This is talking about works in a believer's life as being necessary for "faith" (trust in Jesus) to be true.

You said:

You said, "this would include the Eternal Security Proponent's belief that they are trusting in the finished work of Christ (and yet not bringing forth any fruit from such a trust in Christ)." Is that what this is about? Attacking the Eternal Security of the believer? We know that faith without works is dead. Genuine faith produces works (and dead faith produces no works) but that does not mean that we are saved by works, as I will explain below.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

*James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

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Yes, so works save a person because you cannot be saved without works is what you are saying. For a true faith will always have works. For it is a part of the salvation process. For why would God say, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness"? Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.

For example: You can say that "gas" is not what moves your car and it is the engine of your car that moves your vehicle. But without gas in a gas car, it is not going anywhere on a flat surface. So while gas may not be in and of itself alone so as to move your car without an engine, one still needs gas in a gas car engine to move along a flat service. Yes, we are not saved by works alone, but works play an important part of the salvation process after one is saved by God's grace. For a true faith will always be followed by works and holiness. That is why works do a play a part in our salvation. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is saying how we are initially or ultimately saved.

Now, it is true, a person cannot save themselves by their own work alone.
It is the works of Jesus done through the believer that saves. It is receiving His grace and it is abiding in Christ (and the natural fruit that follows) that saves.


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Light of the East said:

Did the male babies have to wait until they could "make a decision for Jehovah" before they underwent circumcision? This is a principle of the covenant which began with circumcision and was changed in Colossians 2:11-13.

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You have missed one very important word in the Bible verses you quoted: faith

You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:12)

Light of the East said:

Where does it say that everything you are to believe must be found word for word expressed in the Bible?

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I was simply pointing out the irony and double standard I saw:

Light of the East said:

Funny, I don't find asking people to "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" anywhere in the Bible.

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Light of the East said:

Nope. It is nowhere found in the Bible or in the history of the Christian faith. This strange and unbiblical idea

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I'm really digging this forum man.. I woke up to Jimmy Jimmy's quote, started to respond to him, then see that most anything I would have said, has already been covered hahaha cool place.

ubicaritas said:

I see it as potentially introducing religious vanity that glorifies the human will. If salvation is ultimately down to our choice, then the human will is the real god of our lives, and "sinners prayers" can be misleading in that respect.

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Here is a quick list of verses that defends the Sinner's Prayer in the Bible.


The Bible says that John the Baptist preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins.

What was this "baptism of repentance"?

Well, when John baptized people, they also confessed their sins.

Mark 1:4-5
4 "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

As for your strange idea that we believers cannot be sorrowful:

Jesus says,
"Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh." (Luke 6:21).


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“For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in lovingkindness to all who call upon You.” (Psalms 86:5) (NASB).

“For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.” (Psalms 86:5) (KJV).


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Lily of Valleys said:

The theme of the book of Romans is about the gift of the righteousness of God as our justification which is received through faith in Christ. I haven't quoted anything from the book of Galatians.

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Paul was fighting the same Judaism in his epistle to the Romans. The Jews thought that they alone were headed to heaven. Women and Gentiles were not believed to have a soul. Paul is striving to tell them that all have sinned, all are affected by sin. It is the same problem as Paul had in Galatians, that of Jewish supremacy.

Lily of Valleys said:

You have missed one very important word in the Bible verses you quoted: faith

You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:12)

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There are five principles which make up a covenant. One of these is that of hierarchy. In this principle, the head of the covenant group acts on behalf of all those who are under his covenant headship, bringing them either blessing or curse. This is why the nation of Israel went into bondage so often - the leaders of Israel acted in idolatry and other sins and brought curse upon the whole nation, both the wicked and the righteous.

The same principle is what destroyed Israel and took them out of being the covenant people unto God. When the high priest condemned Jesus to death, the whole nation acted through his actions.

Likewise, when parents bring their child to the baptismal font to be baptized, the faith of the parents suffices for the child until he/she is old enough to make a public declaration of their belief in God and their intention to follow Him all the days of his/her life.

So there is faith - it is simply had by those who are covenantally head over the child.

Light of the East said:

Paul was fighting the same Judaism in his epistle to the Romans. The Jews thought that they alone were headed to heaven. Women and Gentiles were not believed to have a soul. Paul is striving to tell them that all have sinned, all are affected by sin. It is the same problem as Paul had in Galatians, that of Jewish supremacy.

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Wow! Where did you come up with this?

"Women and Gentiles were not believed to have a soul."

bbbbbbb said:

Wow! Where did you come up with this?

"Women and Gentiles were not believed to have a soul."

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Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Light of the East said:

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

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Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Yeah.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Light of the East said:

Likewise, when parents bring their child to the baptismal font to be baptized, the faith of the parents suffices for the child until he/she is old enough to make a public declaration of their belief in God and their intention to follow Him all the days of his/her life.

So there is faith - it is simply had by those who are covenantally head over the child.

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The fact that there is not even one mention of the practice of infant baptism in the scripture tells us that infant baptism is unnecessary and doesn't really do anything to the salvation of the child. The order has always been to believe first then baptized.

He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:15-16)