Can you be a Christian Wiccan?

awitch · Jul 27, 2017

Ronald said:
Well it sounds far fetched... .

Yes, it does.

MehGuy · Jul 27, 2017

Ronald said:
Yeah, Darwin is down there waiting for you, give a big hug and thank him for deceiving you.

Maybe he and his pals are doing a great escape plot. With Bertrand Russell always getting into trouble with the demon guards for being sassy and having to go to the hole where he spends his time continuously chucking a baseball at his cell door and catching it with his baseball glove.

Zoness · Jul 27, 2017

MehGuy said:
Maybe he and his pals are doing a great escape plot. With Bertrand Russell always getting into trouble with the demon guards for being sassy and having to go to the hole where he spends his time continuously chucking a baseball at his cell door and catching it with his baseball glove.

I would watch this on TV unironically.

Ronald · Jul 27, 2017

Zoness said:
If Darwin is in hell I can only imagine what other great minds are also there. Boy oh boy do I want to meet Carl Sagan. Maybe we can have a dinner party. With sushi. Lots of sushi. And Indian food. Two of my greatest weaknesses in life (and maybe afterlife!).

But the horned god doesn't seem the hellfire type. He's much too chill for that. Could we possibly re-locate this get-together to the summerlands?

Oh see now that sounds nice. Maybe I can take a day trip down to the lake. I don't do amazing with heat. Too sweaty and what not. In my other comment I proposed a cosmological relocation, I'm open to planes and realms with a bit cooler weather too!

Darwin, Sagan, Dawkins, Hawking,

Silmarien said:
The rate of miscarriage for fertilized eggs is 30-40%, usually due to chromosomal abnormalities before you even know you're pregnant. So if God is actively involved in that particular process, I really do have to question his supposed omnipotence. I see no reason to assume we're not on cruise control as far as actual life processes go. Which makes sense biblical--God says "let there be life" and Creation obliges. He doesn't form each blade of grass individually.

"True science" is a matter of trial and error. It has to be, since the original conditions are always missing. But I think you're conflating evolution as a scientific theory, which should be metaphysically neutral, and naturalistic explanations for it. To be fair, atheists do this too, but it makes it difficult to discuss the subject when people mean different things by the word "evolution."

Beyond that... you specifically went after the Big Bang also, not just evolution. Which is really just cutting off your nose to spite your face, considering where it originally came from.

You guys have all the fun, lol.

Questioning God's omnipotence? Either He is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent or He is not God. Being in control also means He allows evil for a purpose. Sin enters into the world and distorts everything from chromosomes, DNA, genetic codes, cells, to every organ and system. The defects we see and abnormalities are all because of this sin. Sin destroys and so it is not a perfect world because of sin. So God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. He knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and they ate of its fruit. What happened? Sin and evil entered into their reality. So why would God put a temptation in Paradise AND allow the Devil in there to tempt them? That doesn't seem like a perfect environment to me. No, He did it for a purpose. That purpose was so that we would know what good is, that we would know mercy, forgiveness, love, peace, joy, patience, kindness. You can't really appreciate those attributes of God, and know God's love unless you've been without them, unless you've experienced sin and evil. When we are down, depressed, without hope and someone comes along with a lifeline and our life changes, they care for us, love us and then we know what the light is because we experienced darkness. We would not appreciate God. but He had a plan from the start ... to send a Savior, Who would die for our sins, demonstrate the greatest sacrifice and act of love. So that's the story and to some ... a myth. Believe it or not.

dlamberth · Jul 27, 2017

Ronald said:
Well it sounds far fetched ...

Pretty much!

Zoness · Jul 27, 2017

Ronald said:
He knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and they ate of its fruit. What happened? Sin and evil entered into their reality. So why would God put a temptation in Paradise AND allow the Devil in there to tempt them? That doesn't seem like a perfect environment to me. No, He did it for a purpose. That purpose was so that we would know what good is, that we would know mercy, forgiveness, love, peace, joy, patience, kindness. You can't really appreciate those attributes of God, and know God's love unless you've been without them, unless you've experienced sin and evil. When we are down, depressed, without hope and someone comes along with a lifeline and our life changes, they care for us, love us and then we know what the light is because we experienced darkness. We would not appreciate God. but He had a plan from the start ... to send a Savior, Who would die for our sins, demonstrate the greatest sacrifice and act of love. So that's the story and to some ... a myth. Believe it or not.

This seems like an odd choice. If God knew we were going to disobey, why even create us with free will? Especially if he was going to become so angry with us that he would send a great majority of humanity to be tortured forever. Why wouldn't he just wipe sin out? He could even reformat and start again on the universe if he had to. God choosing to send a savior to live a human life feels arbitrary. If he is an all powerful god, then he can change anything at a whim. Going through a whole elaborate process seems like its a little much.

At any rate, I am thankful for what scientific progress has brought us so far. It's substantially lengthened our lives and improved them beyond measure; and at least that I can measure and observe rather than a God who chooses not to make himself readily available to me. I think we're just going to have to disagree here.

awitch · Jul 27, 2017

Ronald said:
Questioning God's omnipotence?

I'm questioning his existence. I haven't even gotten to omnipotence yet.

Sin enters into the world and distorts everything from chromosomes, DNA, genetic codes, cells, to every organ and system.

This is patently false.

The defects we see and abnormalities are all because of this sin.

Could you look into the eyes of parents with a child who has a congenital disorder and tell them that to their face? Have you considered how this reflects on your god?

Sin destroys and so it is not a perfect world because of sin.

There is no such thing as a perfect world.

So God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. He knew Adam and Eve were going to disobey him and they ate of its fruit. What happened? Sin and evil entered into their reality. So why would God put a temptation in Paradise AND allow the Devil in there to tempt them? That doesn't seem like a perfect environment to me. No, He did it for a purpose. That purpose was so that we would know what good is, that we would know mercy, forgiveness, love, peace, joy, patience, kindness. You can't really appreciate those attributes of God, and know God's love unless you've been without them, unless you've experienced sin and evil. When we are down, depressed, without hope and someone comes along with a lifeline and our life changes, they care for us, love us and then we know what the light is because we experienced darkness. We would not appreciate God. but He had a plan from the start ... to send a Savior, Who would die for our sins, demonstrate the greatest sacrifice and act of love. So that's the story and to some ... a myth. Believe it or not.

So god throws plagues, death, abuse, destruction, genocide, slavery, rape, pollution, and disasters as his gift to help us appreciate him more?

Ronald · Jul 27, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Ah, it seems the problem is that you imagine the word "judge" means the same thing as "to condemn".

Both those on the right and the left are judged. Judgment =/= condemnation.

This is a problem that is easily solved by looking at the contents of an English dictionary.

-CryptoLutheran

What is your problem? Are you in denial that there will be a Great Tribulation, which is referred to as Judgment Day, the Day of the Lord. Some would put the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennial Kingdom, fine. But nevertheless, the Judgment here is wrath, condemnation, destruction expressed in many scriptures throughout the Bible.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heavens will be shaken, then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matt 24:29, 30
"But transgressors and sinners will be crushed together, and those who forsake the LORD will come to an end." Isaiah 1:28

"Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it ...
Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will make mortal man scarcer than pur gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the LORD of hosts
In the day of His burning anger." Isaiah 13:9-13

"Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. 'Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?" Isaiah 33:14
"It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." Zech. 12:9
"Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm11:6

And this is the effects of a nuke written thousands of years ago:
"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Zech. 14:2-4,12
Why don't you exegete that scripture? In other words, their flesh will burn quickly as they stand on their feet! Other words for "consume" are "melt" or dissolve". That's an exact description of the effects of a nuclear blast incinerating your flesh before you drop.
And I didn't even get into Revelation.

Ronald · Jul 27, 2017

Zoness said:
This seems like an odd choice. If God knew we were going to disobey, why even create us with free will? Especially if he was going to become so angry with us that he would send a great majority of humanity to be tortured forever. Why wouldn't he just wipe sin out? He could even reformat and start again on the universe if he had to. God choosing to send a savior to live a human life feels arbitrary. If he is an all powerful god, then he can change anything at a whim. Going through a whole elaborate process seems like its a little much.

At any rate, I am thankful for what scientific progress has brought us so far. It's substantially lengthened our lives and improved them beyond measure; and at least that I can measure and observe rather than a God who chooses not to make himself readily available to me. I think we're just going to have to disagree here.

OK

Ronald · Jul 27, 2017

awitch said:
I'm questioning his existence. I haven't even gotten to omnipotence yet.

This is patently false.

Could you look into the eyes of parents with a child who has a congenital disorder and tell them that to their face? Have you considered how this reflects on your god?

There is no such thing as a perfect world.

So god throws plagues, death, abuse, destruction, genocide, slavery, rape, pollution, and disasters as his gift to help us appreciate him more?

And then came Jesus ...

ViaCrucis · Jul 27, 2017

Ronald said:
What is your problem? Are you in denial that there will be a Great Tribulation, which is referred to as Judgment Day, the Day of the Lord. Some would put the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennial Kingdom, fine. But nevertheless, the Judgment here is wrath, condemnation, destruction expressed in many scriptures throughout the Bible.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heavens will be shaken, then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matt 24:29, 30
"But transgressors and sinners will be crushed together, and those who forsake the LORD will come to an end." Isaiah 1:28

"Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it ...
Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will make mortal man scarcer than pur gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the LORD of hosts
In the day of His burning anger." Isaiah 13:9-13

"Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. 'Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?" Isaiah 33:14
"It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." Zech. 12:9
"Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm11:6

And this is the effects of a nuke written thousands of years ago:
"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Zech. 14:2-4,12
Why don't you exegete that scripture? In other words, their flesh will burn quickly as they stand on their feet! Other words for "consume" are "melt" or dissolve". That's an exact description of the effects of a nuclear blast incinerating your flesh before you drop.
And I didn't even get into Revelation.

I don't subscribe to Dispensationalism, as it is aberrant and heterodox. As such your entire hermeneutic is something I regard as unbiblical, unChristian, and false.

-CryptoLutheran

Silmarien · Jul 27, 2017

awitch said:
I'm questioning his existence. I haven't even gotten to omnipotence yet.

I don't question God's existence or omnipotence--it's the idea that God is micromanaging all of Creation that I find impossible to reconcile with reality. Unless he's really incompetent, but fine tuning would suggest otherwise, unless you want to combine theism with infinite universes, which... seems like a more complicated explanation than just dropping the type of constant divine intervention and special creation that was never biblical in the first place.

People tend to conflate "what can God do?" with "what does our knowledge of the universe suggest that God is doing?"

awitch said:
This is patently false.

Depends on how you define original sin. I was discussing all the evolutionary complications with my priest and got handed a Teilhard de Chardin style argument: the universe is by necessity incomplete, since had it been brought into existence fully formed, it would have had no reality apart from God. Being incomplete, it is also imperfect, and thus suffering and sin were able to gain a foothold. Hence the violence inherent in evolution.

awitch said:
Could you look into the eyes of parents with a child who has a congenital disorder and tell them that to their face? Have you considered how this reflects on your god?

There is no such thing as a perfect world.

Keep in mind that the heart of Christianity is the claim that there is nothing "natural" about entropy, death, sin, and so forth. Perfection is possible, but all we know of it thus far are echoes.

As for how all this reflects upon the Christian God... well, the Gospel isn't actually "repent or go to hell." Christianity's main claim is that God has acted to make the cosmos anew and that all shall at some point be set right. It's a cosmic promise, as you can see in Romans 8:22: "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

Orthodox Christianity is actually really radical in how it deals with the Problem of Evil. Much more so than most people realize.

Ronald · Jul 28, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
I don't subscribe to Dispensationalism, as it is aberrant and heterodox. As such your entire hermeneutic is something I regard as unbiblical, unChristian, and false.-CrytoLutheran

______________________________
You don't subscribe to a literal interpretation of those scriptures above and of the events in the book of Revelation? You don't subscribe to a literal Judgement Day, the end of the world as we know it, the end of sin and evil? No, you subscribe to Amillennialism. I suppose you believe Christianity will eventually transform the world into Paradise? Will Christianity win over all other religions, atheism, cults, sin and evil and eventually we will all get along? Your hermemeutics are certainly different. Why don't you just give everyone an example your interpretation of any of those scriptures pertaining to the Second Coming of Jesus, the wrath of God and his VERY DETAILED PLAN to eradicate evil? You can't or you won't because all you do is go around and disagree without offering any anything concrete. Let's see your hermeneutics. And while you are at it, give us all some comforting words that the Great Tribulaion period is not on the horizon and that humanity will eventually solve all the problems of evil by our faith alone. Did God really intend for mankind to suffer and struggle in a sinful world for eons without end? I think not. But tell us your perspective about the future of Christianity, where it's going, where the world is headed and your handle on eschatology. Take your time, we have a few months.

dlamberth · Jul 28, 2017

Silmarien said:
. Perfection is possible, but all we know of it thus far are echoes.

Perfection in this Creation is to be found in the diversity around us. It's not in our mental concepts.

Ronald · Jul 28, 2017

Sorry folks, we got way off topic. In conclusion, can a Christian be a Wiccan or vice versa? No, they are not compatible in any way. Btw, a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, Cultist, Scientologist, or any other religion or philosophy outside of Christianity and outside of what is written in the Bible is not compatible with Christianity. If you seek to become a Christian and then when you truly become a Christian, you will leave your old ways, religions, philosophies behind. They will die and cease, you will be born again, with the Spirit of God living in you and will be thankful for being taken out of your blindness and false belief system that you were once in. No, you can't practice witchcraft, hold séances, read crystal balls or tarot cards, you won't believe in reincarnation, you won't follow Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, Brahma, L Ron Hubbard, and/or all the other false teachers; you will follow Jesus and you will be saved from destruction.

awitch · Jul 28, 2017

Ronald said:
you will follow Jesus and you will be saved from destruction.

But not until after you die. In fact, as you've pointed out, he may throw all sorts of horror-movie level experiences at you before then just to make sure you really believe and appreciate him.

Zoness · Jul 28, 2017

Though I think saying one is Wiccan and Christian is mutually contradictory, its clear that syncreticism plays a part in a lot of people's faith and that syncreticism may include pagan element in the belief of Christians. Many Christians the world over (and truly people of all religions) believe heterodox things that their churches/temples/mosques would not formally endorse or they may even be actively against them but personal beliefs fuse tightly with religious beliefs, too. In this area especially I am fascinated by pagan symbolism in modern society and the practice of folk magick in the lives of modern people and past generations alike.

In fact its taken me a long time to accept that messy syncreticism since I like cleanly delineated systems but nothing about humanity and its beliefs is clean.

Silmarien · Jul 28, 2017

dlamberth said:
Perfection in this Creation is to be found in the diversity around us. It's not in our mental concepts.

Beauty can be found, sure. Perfection, though... too much suffering, and I don't like any theological framework that kind of just sweeps that under the rug. Including much of Christianity, to be honest, but I got Russian Orthodox'd by Dostoevsky pretty hard. ^_^

Ronald · Jul 28, 2017

awitch said:
But not until after you die. In fact, as you've pointed out, he may throw all sorts of horror-movie level experiences at you before then just to make sure you really believe and appreciate him.

NO! You are saved once you believe in Jesus, you don't have to wait until you die. When you die you will enter heaven, but spiritually, the moment Jesus washes your sins away after asking Him for forgiveness, you are "in Christ" for eternity.

Can you be a Christian Wiccan?

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