I regret trying to create a discussion.

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
....and in doing so, you're going against what the Christian church has believed for thousands of years--so who would be believing "something that people made up"?

The Bible alone is the Word of God. Creeds are what people believe. There is a world of difference.

mkgal1 · Jul 24, 2017

pescador said:
Sophistry. Matthew wrote "And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Remember when Jesus spoke with the woman at the well? Recall His language of "living water"? In my belief....Jesus (God) speaks to our understanding by using language and concepts that WE relate to. The Jews related well to covenant language and concepts--that was THEIR concept, though (I believe)....not God's.

mkgal1 · Jul 24, 2017

pescador said:
The Bible alone is the Word of God. Creeds are what people believe. There is a world of difference.

The Bible wasn't even canonized until centuries after Christ's resurrection (and, even then, ordinary people weren't permitted to or capable of even reading it)---so what message was the early church spreading then?

Did the Bible become flesh? Was the Bible "with God in the beginning"? Is the Bible....God? It sure seems that some people make it out to be.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.~John 1:1

Creeds aren't just "what people believe". Creeds are what the church has believed to have been revealed *to the church* for thousands of years.

***We shouldn't even be having to derail this thread with this in this forum.

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
Can we talk about this myth?

If Jesus died to "pay" for our sins, then we have not truly been forgiven.

If Jesus "paid the penalty" for our sins, we have not truly been forgiven.

Do you hold to the notion that Jesus "paid" for our sins? If so, what is the scriptural basis of our opinion?

Romans chapter 3

EmSw · Jul 24, 2017

OrthodoxyUSA said:
The Father has never taken a human form for himself.

Forgive me...

Have you not read Isaiah?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do you 'Everlasting Father' listed there? This is speaking of the Child which was born.

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Remember when Jesus spoke with the woman at the well? Recall His language of "living water"? In my belief....Jesus (God) speaks to our understanding by using language and concepts that WE relate to. The Jews related well to covenant language and concepts--that was THEIR concept, though (I believe)....not God's.

God called the Jews his own people. He established a covenant with them at Mount Sinai. God understood covenants which is why he made several of them.

When you say, "Jesus (God) speaks to our understanding by using language and concepts that WE relate to" isn't that obvious. Would it make any sense for Jesus (God) speak to our understanding by using language and concepts that we can't relate to.

holyrokker · Jul 24, 2017

I regret trying to create a discussion.

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

miknik5 said:
Romans chapter 3

Correct!! Excellent post.

Rick Otto · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
That's quite a list of verses. Can we first discuss those that address the topic of "payment" before getting into those that don't?

1 Corinthians 6:20
For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 7:23
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

Both from Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians. These don't refer to a payment toward a debt, though. They are referring to Christ's claim of lordship over us.

In brief, Corinth at the time of Paul was a relatively "new" city. The old Corinth had been destroyed by the Romans, then repopulated by freed slaves.

The Corinthians were proud of their heritage of being a free people.

Paul's illustration was that the Christians in Corinth were no longer "free" because they were now slaves to Christ. They sold themselves to Him at the price of His blood. (An accurate picture, by the way, that applies to all who belong to Christ.)

In selling themselves to Christ, they exchanged slavery to sin for slavery to Christ.
They were now free from sin. How could they then sell themselves to sin once again?

You have a wonderful imagination.
I just read the first six chapters of 1 Corinthians looking for Paul talking about Christians selling themselves. Not there. Never even heard anything like it before now.
The very idea is bizarre to me, friend.

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

OrthodoxyUSA said:
There is no debt to the Father.

Christ Jesus is the man in the garden who created and spoke with Adam. Christianity 101 (This is what the Jews hated about Christians. Changing the story so to speak.)

Forgive me...

There is a "debt" to the FATHER
A debt we never could pay because of sinful flesh skeet getting in the way of perfect obedience to an all HOLY and PERFECT GOD

And no flesh could reverse the sins and disobedience of imperfect man but the ONE who came in the likeness of and pattern of man to redeem what had been lost

mkgal1 · Jul 24, 2017

pescador said:
God called the Jews his own people. He established a covenant with them at Mount Sinai. God understood covenants which is why he made several of them.

When you say, "Jesus (God) speaks to our understanding by using language and concepts that WE relate to" isn't that obvious. Would it make any sense for Jesus (God) speak to our understanding by using language and concepts that we can't relate to.

Nope...it wouldn't make any sense for God to do that. I don't understand why you'd ask that question.

Like the woman at the well.....I think we are to understand His message and then move past that language though (realizing the metaphors were only to get the message through---and not the message itself).

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
It's not word play, and it it is not meant to be amusing. It is very serious.

You are correct that nobody pays for sin and that forgiveness is not something that can be purchased.

That's why I wanted to discuss the topic.

The Bible does not use that imagery when it refers to the forgiveness of sin.

So why do many Christians claim that Jesus "bought my pardon" or that His blood paid the penalty for my sin?

Because that is what the Bible clearly says! God has always required that the penalty for severe sins be blood. Jesus' blood was the penalty that God required for all sin, past, present, and future. How else do you think that people's sins have been, are, and will be forgiven?

Rick Otto · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
....and in doing so, you're going against what the Christian church has believed for thousands of years--so who would be believing "something that people made up"?

The people who mistakenly believed those people who have pretended to be "The Church" for thousands of years.
Escape Churchianity now.

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

OrthodoxyUSA said:
The Father has never appeared in human form. Only the Son.

Forgive me...

So there are two HOLY SPIRITS?

pescador · Jul 24, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Nope...it wouldn't make any sense for God to do that. I don't understand why you'd ask that question.

Like the woman at the well.....I think we are to understand His message and then move past that language though (realizing the metaphors were only to get the message through---and not the message itself).

That make absolutely no sense. Is God playing games with us by speaking in code?

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
I can be released from debt in one of two ways: the debt can be paid, or it can be forgiven. If it is paid, it isn't forgiven.

Besides that, sin is not a debt to be paid. The penalty of sin is not a debt to be paid.

How do you speak for the one who paid and forgave the debt?

holyrokker · Jul 24, 2017

miknik5 said:
Romans chapter 3

I'll discuss Romans 3

Paul is addressing the idea that God considers those who live by faith to be righteous.

He also addresses the idea the Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice that allows humanity to be in a right relationship with God (replacing the sacrifices required by the Law).

Paul is also clear that God had been forgiving sin long before Jesus died on the cross.

The death of Jesus is not occasion for forgiveness. His death is the establishment and maintenance of a New Covenant.

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Time out...
Everybody go read how the early Church explained it... circa year 300 ad
Read just the first two chapters...
On the Incarnation of the Word - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Notice that a debt to the Father is not part of the conversation.

Forgive me...

Of course not
It's just known that HE and THE FATHER are ONE

If GOD was in CHRIST reconciling the world to HIMSELF and not counting their sins against those who would believe, did you think that Christ's spirit was separate from THE FATHER

What did CHRIST mean when HE said he who has seen MEhas seen THE FATHER

Or that I and MY FATHER are ONE

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
I'll discuss Romans 3

Paul is addressing the idea that God considers those who live by faith to be righteous.

He also addresses the idea the Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice that allows humanity to be in a right relationship with God (replacing the sacrifices required by the Law).

Paul is also clear that God had been forgiving sin long before Jesus died on the cross.

The death of Jesus is not occasion for forgiveness. His death is the establishment and maintenance of a New Covenant.

GOD is just sir
HE won't be comparing the sins of one disobedient child over and against and by the sins of another disobedient child

That would make HIM worse than a natural father who wouldn't (or shouldn't) do this

To be just when HE judges and the justifier of all whose faith is in HIS SON)

That is how HE will judge
One believes in THE SON for salvation that is sufficient and saving faith

miknik5 · Jul 24, 2017

holyrokker said:
I'll discuss Romans 3

Paul is addressing the idea that God considers those who live by faith to be righteous.

He also addresses the idea the Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice that allows humanity to be in a right relationship with God (replacing the sacrifices required by the Law).

Paul is also clear that God had been forgiving sin long before Jesus died on the cross.

The death of Jesus is not occasion for forgiveness. His death is the establishment and maintenance of a New Covenant.

And no Paul said GOD winked (HE turned away HIS eye) from the sins committed in the past

But now HE calls all men to repentence and salvation in HIS SON
(Acts 17)

There is NO OTHER WAY by which a man can be saved

None

I regret trying to create a discussion.

Wise old man

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

"Let not your heart be troubled"

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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"Let not your heart be troubled"

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"Let not your heart be troubled"

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