I regret trying to create a discussion.

[AnticipateHisComing]

In the original post, I did not claim to present a position that is derived from Scripture. I asked others to explain how the myth of "payment" for sin is biblical. I'm looking for your position.

Please explain, from the Bible, how your position is true.

You claim to be myth the position the Jesus paid for our sins. You offer up no scripture to support such claim. Are we just supposed to beleive you because you stated so. You expect others to convince you of their position with scripture. The hypocracy in your post is telling.

I'll offer up scripture to support my position right after you state your position and support it with scripture.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Father has never taken a human form for himself.

Forgive me...

 

[mkgal1]

You claim to be myth the position the Jesus paid for our sins. You offer up no scripture to support such claim. Are we just supposed to beleive you because you stated so. You expect others to convince you of their position with scripture. The hypocracy in your post is telling.

I'll offer up scripture to support my position right after you state your position and support it with scripture.

I must have missed that---was the OP about "convincing" anyone....or was it just presented as a discussion?

Listing a page of Scripture doesn't really do much---IMO---because it's more about how one *interprets* those words. I sat in church for decades hearing the same passages (and commentary) over and over again. "Grace"....."Truth"....and "Love" all seemed to take on a different meaning. People would YELL at eachother and stop speaking to each other (after being friends for decades) and call it "speaking the truth in love".

The Word isn't the Bible (many people have used the Bible to support their evil intentions---just look at the KKK if you need even one example of what I mean)....the Word is Jesus.

If one passage is needed to answer the question of "what's the Gospel?"....that's probably John 1:1-18:

The Word Became Flesh

 

[Monna]

I struggle with this stuff quite a bit. Am not sure I have it right yet, perhaps never will, since it is a holy and loving God in action. But my current take is:

When we sin, at least two things happen - we incur guilt (Towards God and at least one other person than ourselves); our sin has very definite additional consequences, many of which cannot be undone.

God can address the guilt (towards himself) by forgiveness. Having someone else (e.g. Jesus) pay the penalty of that guilt means that there is no forgiveness - you cannot forgive and pay. There is no place or allowance for forgiveness within the law. It doesn't exist there. The law requires payment. (Mercy, in the form of ameliorating circumstances reducing the amount or form of payment is allowed, but not forgiveness).

Reconciliation requires dealing with the other consequences of our sins (of commision and omission). To some extent we can work for reconciliation with the people we have sinned against by including some form of recompense or restitution. But we have absolutely nothing that we can use this way in reconciliation with God. He has given us every single thing we 'have,' including life itself. Jesus is our reconciliation, our recompense, our restitution. He is the only one who God will accept in this roll. We can only be reconciled with God when we come to him "in Christ," who is our recompense and reconciliation - and continues to mediate with the Father on our behalf.

We were already dead in our sins when "Christ died for us." We were already held by Satan in his "prison" of death. The Old Testament (and very common cultural phenomenon) of redemption applies in which Christ pays the ransom for us. He could not defeat death without dying and then overcoming death by rising to life again. And in doing so he redeemed us and took the "keys of death," not only destroying the power of death but taking its instruments of incarceration. It is in this sense of redeeming us, as a slave is redeemed/purchased from its owner and master, that I conceive of Jesus " paying" for our sins.

If this is all wrong, please clarify. So many different aspects of life and death, forgiveness and payment, of atonement, of redemption and ransom, of slavery and freedom, of reconciliation were involved in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus the Christ, that my little brain has a hard time keeping all the strands distinct and untangled. Most often I end up simply telling myself, I don't need to understand all the details, I can simply rest in the faith he has given me to believe that whatever was necessary for my salvation and reconciliation with God was indeed done. And praise him for it.

 

[pescador]

did you read my post #66?

Yes. The verse you refer to says, "No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known." You said that nobody knew that God existed. That is contrary to what the Bible says. Period.

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[pescador]

There's a distinction between the words "separation" and "difference".

The "He" in the passage you're quoting is Jesus....fully human and fully God. There's a distinction between Him (as a human) and Christ (in the creed there's a reference to that, saying "Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the
Father, as touching his manhood").


An important part of the Nicene Creed states that Jesus is "God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father."

The Athanasian Creed clarified more (later):

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,
and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty,
and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three
Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord,
and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge
every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say,
There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son,
neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons;
one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other;
none is greater, or less than another; But the whole three Persons
are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid,
the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also
believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,
that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and Man of the substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the
Father, as touching his manhood; Who, although he be God and Man,
yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead
into flesh but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul
and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sitteth at the right hand of the Father,
God Almighty, from whence he will come
to judge the quick and the dead.

If you want to "feel religious, be my guest." Personally, I don't care much for creeds. I believe what the Bible clearly says, not something that people made up.

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[mkgal1]

If you want to "feel religious, be my guest." Personally, I don't care much for creeds. I believe what the Bible clearly says, not something that people made up.

These people say the same thing:

....the Bible doesn't "clearly" say anything or else we would ALL be arriving at the same conclusion about it ALL (and we know that's not true!). Most of the verses that people use to support the idea that "the Bible clearly says" are some of the most debated verses.

 

[pescador]

Why do you think that "The sacrifice of Jesus was the payment that God demanded for all sin?"

That concept does not come from the Bible.

If you really think that you should go and read the New Testament. If you can't handle that in its entirety, read Hebrews.

"The sacrifice of Jesus was the payment that God demanded for all sin" is the basis of Christianity.

 

[mkgal1]

If you want to "feel religious, be my guest." Personally, I don't care much for creeds. I believe what the Bible clearly says, not something that people made up.

"Feel religious"?.....oh, man......you *clearly* don't know me.....but I do believe the early church believers came to some great conclusions.

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[pescador]

The Bible says that God forgives our sin. But that could not be true if Jesus paid for them.

There is no payment where there is forgiveness.

There is no forgiveness where there is payment.

Sophistry. Matthew wrote "And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[holyrokker]

I regret trying to create a discussion.

 

[mkgal1]

If you want to "feel religious, be my guest." Personally, I don't care much for creeds. I believe what the Bible clearly says, not something that people made up.

....and in doing so, you're going against what the Christian church has believed for thousands of years--so who would be believing "something that people made up"?

 

[Albion]

How do you come up with that idea from the Bible?

I've heard people--not too many of them, but some--say that. No, I do not think that it is supported by the Bible.

 

[Rick Otto]

So you post some Calvinist mumbo jumbo and then quote John 1:29 which plainly says Christ takes away the sins OF THE WORLD. Either Christ died for the "predetermined" or he died for the world.

So react ad hom and ignore the stated context THE WORLD was Isreal's descriptor of gentiles.
Plainly.

 

[pescador]

For the forgiveness of sin: not for the payment of sin.

Nobody pays for sin, as though it was something that can be purchased. Please stop the word play; it's not very amusing.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

can't agree with what you say here.

go back and read my post #66!

You can't agree but you can't refute my argument either. Understand that scripture must come to a consensus when all verses on a subject are considered. You take John 1:18 in absolute terms and ignore all other scripture.

When Jesus was on this earth, could he be in two places at the same time? Luke 2 has the glory of God the Father being shown to the shepherds while Jesus was born in Bethlehem. At Jesus' transfiguration, Matthew 17 it has the appearance of God the Father in a bright cloud such that the disciples were terrified. Acts 7:56 has Stephen seeing Jesus at the right hand of God the Father. Revelation says the saints in heaven see God.

Understand that the face is where the glory of a person is. Exodus 33:20 clarifies John's statements that no one in the flesh can see the ultimate glory of God the Father which is in his face. We in our corrupted flesh can not handle the true glory of God. When we die and go to heaven we will be glorified and will then be able to see the face of God the Father.

Yes, Jesus is the mediator between God and man. That does not mean that God the Father never made some kind of presence on earth.