Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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JPS managed to get this OLAM translated decently here without making it the ridiculous "everlasting" or similar type nonsense:
And they that shall be of thee shall build the old(OLAM) waste places... (Isa.58:12a)
ancient(OLAM) (Isa.58:12, NIV).
OLAM is the same word used in Daniel 12:2-3:
The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)
The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.
Compare v.3:
l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf
OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr
Habbukah 3:6:
JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].
Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.
CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.
Daniel 12:2:
Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)
Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)...
...Previous Post Repeated...
I suggest you read this and memorize it.
There are many things that can cause a person to misinterpret what is written in various translations of the Bible. Many Christians do not realize that some of the most popular Bible translations do not accurately convey the true meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I believe one of the leading causes of stumbling is not being aware that the original language of the Bible (Hebrew) is a highly exaggerative language, sometimes even to the point of what would appear to be lying from a Western point of view. Most Bible translations and Bible teachers do not point this out clearly enough....the Bible is FULL OF HYPERBOLE WHICH SHOULDN’T BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
This quote is from an article on hyperbole in the Bible. I found it at your pet website tents-я-us.
Bible Matters--Hyperbole
It seems the universal "bible," tents-я-us, only acknowledges hyperbole in the Bible when it is convenient and suits their purpose.

There is another even longer article on "Hyperbole in the Bible" at tents-я-us. Note the final sentence in the above quote. Most Bible translations and Bible teachers do not point this out clearly enough....the Bible is full of hyperbole which shouldn't be taken literally. But it is very evident that the folks over at tents-я-us are so adamant about pushing their agenda acknowledge hyperbole in the Bible only when it is convenient and suits their agenda and the uni crowd follows right along .
 
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Dartman

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Dartman, if i don't respond to any of your posts, that means i disagree and or find your comments not worth responding to. For example when the points you make are weak or unsupported by facts. I'd advise you to drop the subject. Your time would be better spent answering some of my posts you never answered.
<Staff Edit>
When you can't answer my points, please just admit it. <Staff Edit>
I will be happy to answer ANY points you think I haven't answered, but frankly, I don't believe there are any.
With the VAST array of words and phrases used by Scripture to describe and define the END of the wicked, I can certainly understand why you want to drop the subject!
Here is just a tiny sample;
Isa 11:4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for (their) evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Ezek 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thy hand.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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ClementofA

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[snip]

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

This verse, as well as all the others you posted, say nothing about an "end of the wicked", let alone them being eternally annihilated out of existence.

In fact the Greek word for "punished" above includes the definition of being corrected. Which is against the unbiblical teaching of endless annihilation to the unbelievers who don't believe within the brief period of a lifetime, whether be it a few days or decades, when God's love expires like a container of milk.

The Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment, to be corrected. (2 Peter 2:9)


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
 
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ClementofA

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It seems the universal "bible," tents-я-us, only acknowledges hyperbole in the Bible when it is convenient and suits their purpose.

No evidence of these false allegations was given. The website referred to is just one of many in support of universalism & i have never heard anyone else refer to it as a bible.

Damnationists, OTOH, change the literal translations into something else, such as, for example, "the ages of the ages" into "ever and ever".

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)


"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three
 
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ClementofA

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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Here is just a tiny sample;
Isa 11:4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for (their) evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Ezek 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thy hand.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
This verse, as well as all the others you posted, say nothing about an "end of the wicked", let alone them being eternally annihilated out of existence.
Of course they do. The one verse you chose to address contrasts the treatment of the godly and the unjust, and specifies that the unjust are reserved for punishment, NOT for repentance. ALL of the verses illustrate various ways of expressing this punishment. "burned up", "ashes", "cast them into the furnace of fire", "cast into the lake of fire", "slay the wicked".

ClementofA said:
In fact the Greek word for "punished" above includes the definition of being corrected. Which is against the unbiblical teaching of endless annihilation to the unbelievers who don't believe within the brief period of a lifetime, whether be it a few days or decades, when God's love expires like a container of milk.
1) There isn't a single text that explains ANY alternative to the annihilation of the unbeliever. 2) The Biblical teaching is "burned up", "ashes", "cast them into the furnace of fire", "cast into the lake of fire", "slay the wicked".... and Many others! No matter how many times you deny this fact, the verses are still there!

It appears you carefully selected the verse you felt could be manipulated the easiest, and ignored the rest.
 
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Dartman

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Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

The next two verses state:

32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
You are leaving out the context;
Lam 3:25-32 The Lord is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.

26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.

27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.

28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.

29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.

30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.

31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

32 But though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.


This context is discussing those who are REPENTANT.
There are ZERO texts that explain anyone having a "2nd Chance" after resurrection!!
You are taking snippets out of context, and weaving vast theories around them, without support.
 
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ClementofA

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You are leaving out the context;
Lam 3:25-32 The Lord is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.

26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.

27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.

28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.

29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.

30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.

31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

32 But though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.


This context is discussing those who are REPENTANT.
There are ZERO texts that explain anyone having a "2nd Chance" after resurrection!!
You are taking snippets out of context, and weaving vast theories around them, without support.

You said "This passage is talking about the restoration of the NATION of Israel,"

But nowhere does the entire chapter 3 mention the "nation of Israel".

I pointed out verse 33 which speaks of the "sons of men":

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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Of course they do. The one verse you chose to address contrasts the treatment of the godly and the unjust, and specifies that the unjust are reserved for punishment, NOT for repentance. ALL of the verses illustrate various ways of expressing this punishment. "burned up", "ashes", "cast them into the furnace of fire", "cast into the lake of fire", "slay the wicked".

I repeat: The verses you posted say nothing about the wicked being eternally annihilated out of existence.

You reply: Of course they do.

But they don't. And you have failed to show any evidence that they do. Just saying they do is not evidence. It's denial.

Punishment does not equal the wicked" being eternally annihilated out of existence.

What you need to support your annihilation idea is something in Scripture that speaks of the wicked being eternally annihilated out of existence. Or the equivalent.

Since no such scripture exists, your theory does not have scriptural support.

It appears you carefully selected the verse you felt could be manipulated the easiest, and ignored the rest.

Obviously my comment (re the absence of any mention of the wicked being eternally annihilated out of existence) applied to them all. What more needs to be said? You haven't provided any evidence that any of them support your theory. I've pointed out how all of them fail in that regard. End of story.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Dartman

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You said "This passage is talking about the restoration of the NATION of Israel,"

But nowhere does the entire chapter 3 mention the "nation of Israel".

I pointed out verse 33 which speaks of the "sons of men":

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
The entire book is a lamentation about Jehovah/YHVH God punishing Israel;

Lam 1:1-4 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people how is she become as a widow she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary
2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.
3 Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.
4 The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.



Lam 2:1-2
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!
2 The Lord hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and hath not pitied: he hath thrown down in his wrath the strong holds of the daughter of Judah; he hath brought them down to the ground: he hath polluted the kingdom and the princes thereof.



Lam 2:17-19 17 The Lord hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.
18 Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease.
19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.


The passage you keep quoting out of context, is discussing the restoration of a repentant Israel;

Lam 3:40-46 40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the Lord.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
43 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.
46 All our enemies have opened their mouths against us.
 
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Dartman

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I repeat: The verses you posted say nothing about the wicked being eternally annihilated out of existence.

You reply: Of course they do.

But they don't. And you have failed to show any evidence that they do. Just saying they do is not evidence. It's denial.
You are the one in denial. All of these verses discuss the annihilation of the wicked. You have carefully selected a term "annihilation" that is NOT used in the KJV. And you are hiding behind the lack of that specific term, and refusing to deal with the VAST array of other words and phrases, that MEAN "annihilation"!
When the Scriptures state the wicked will be "burned up", they will "not be", they will "not be found", they will be "left neither root, nor branch", they will be condemned to "second death", they will be "cast into the lake of fire" .... then yes, all of these Scriptures discuss "annihilation", even though that specific term isn't used.

ClementofA said:
Punishment does not equal the wicked" being eternally annihilated out of existence.

What you need to support your annihilation idea is something in Scripture that speaks of the wicked being eternally annihilated out of existence. Or the equivalent.
I have;
Isa 11:4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for (their) evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Ezek 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thy hand.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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benelchi

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JPS managed to get this OLAM translated decently here without making it the ridiculous "everlasting" or similar type nonsense:

And they that shall be of thee shall build the old(OLAM) waste places... (Isa.58:12a)

ancient(OLAM) (Isa.58:12, NIV).

OLAM is the same word used in Daniel 12:2-3:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

============================================



https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Out of curiosity, how would would you translate the phrase: כי לעולם חסדו (used a dozen times in Ps. 139).

Do you think that "His love endures for a limited period of time" is valid?


Note: The JPS and Revised JPS both translate "OLAM" as eternal in Daniel 12:2
 
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ClementofA

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ClementofA

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Out of curiosity, how would would you translate the phrase: כי לעולם חסדו (used a dozen times in Ps. 139).

Do you think that "His love endures for a limited period of time" is valid?


Note: The JPS and Revised JPS both translate "OLAM" as eternal in Daniel 12:2

God's love is both of ages past/ancient time, this age(OLAM), the coming age(OLAM), the coming ages(OLAM plural) & endless.

As for Daniel 12:2-3...

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)
 
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ClementofA

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You are the one in denial. All of these verses discuss the annihilation of the wicked. You have carefully selected a term "annihilation" that is NOT used in the KJV. And you are hiding behind the lack of that specific term, and refusing to deal with the VAST array of other words and phrases, that MEAN "annihilation"!
When the Scriptures state the wicked will be "burned up", they will "not be", they will "not be found", they will be "left neither root, nor branch", they will be condemned to "second death", they will be "cast into the lake of fire" .... then yes, all of these Scriptures discuss "annihilation", even though that specific term isn't used.

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.

Second death. You've provided no evidence "second death" means endlessly annihilated. How do you explain those alive in the lake of fire? Alive is not dead.

The reference to "left neither root nor branch" (Mal.4) is figurative language. Human beings aren't trees. Malachi 4 speaks of what will happen on a "day", not in eternity. The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. This passage, like the others, does not deny a future resurrection to these wicked, nor affirm them being endlessly annihilated, so does not support your theory. You have to read that into the context by assumption and add your theory to the words of God in Malachi 4. Because it isn't there.

As to your "not be found" and "not be" out of context alleged quotes of Scripture, i'll address those if & when you can provide Scripture references so they can be answered in context, before i show how they also do not support the theory of endless oblivion.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
 
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Dartman

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You are out of this context, which is the decisive one:
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundantlovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…
There isn't anything in the book of Lamentations that is out of this context. The ENTIRE BOOK is dedicated to lamenting Jehovah's punishment of Israel.

Therefore, the statement that Jehovah will not cast off forever is discussing His treatment of the repentant of Israel as expressed in the text.
 
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Dartman

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Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.
You are inventing a HOPE for the wicked that doesn't exist. Those who are NOT in line to inherit the kingdom have "no hope";
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Everyone knows "burned up" is annihilated out of existence. You are correct, that the resurrection CAN overcome even that level of destruction, but what you are utterly lacking is ANY text that offers a SECOND resurrection to any individual.
Yes, Scripture lists two resurrections, but NEVER does the Bible discuss a resurrection from 2nd death!
All death is annihilation out of existence, the Scripture calls "return to the dust", "sleep in the dust", "in the graves", "in hell". The difference with 2nd death is, there are no more resurrections.

Your theory requires an ADDITIONAL resurrection, after "second death"!! You have ZERO Scriptures that explain this NOTION!!

ClementofA said:
Second death. You've provided no evidence "second death" means endlessly annihilated. How do you explain those alive in the lake of fire? Alive is not dead.
In the lake of fire they are either dying, or ashes.

ClementofA said:
The reference to "left neither root nor branch" (Mal.4) is figurative language. Human beings aren't trees. Malachi 4 speaks of what will happen on a "day", not in eternity. The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. This passage, like the others, does not deny a future resurrection to these wicked, nor affirm them being endlessly annihilated, so does not support your theory. You have to read that into the context by assumption and add your theory to the words of God in Malachi 4. Because it isn't there.
Your theory invents more resurrections than Scripture allows. There are only two options for resurrection, according to the angel speaking to Daniel, and according to Jesus. Option one is life. Option two is "damnation", 'burned up", "ashes", "destroyed", "shame and everlasting contempt", etc.
The annihilation of the wicked occurs on a "day", not in eternity.

So, since we all know you don't have a SINGLE passage that describes a "resurrection to repentance", or any "second chance", or "3rd death"... etc., we know your theories are not Scriptural.
 
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benelchi

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God's love is both of ages past/ancient time, this age(OLAM), the coming age(OLAM), the coming ages(OLAM plural) & endless.

It is not used in a plural form in Ps. 139!

As for Daniel 12:2-3...

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

Would you like to cite any Hebrew scholar who supports your conclusion?

NIDOTTE states under the article on עולם "Dan 12:2 predicts that after the final conflict between the saints and the forces of the evil king, many off those who sleep in the dusty earth shall be resurrected, "some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

FYI - NIDOTTE is one of the most respected OT Theological Dictionaries and encompasses the work of many of the world's top Hebrew scholars.


Wow, this is most useless Hebrew text I have tried to read, the Hebrew is all BACKWARDS!

English in this read to trying than worse is It

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Note: You do not have the right Hebrew word for everlasting.

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)


Let's look at the LXX and see how this was understood by the Apostles who frequently cited the LXX, and the Jewish community of the 1st century who frequently used the LXX.

καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν τῷ πλάτει τῆς γῆς ἀναστήσονται οἱ μὲν εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν οἱ δὲ εἰς διασπορὰν καὶ αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον (Dan. 12:2)

Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon
[Fri] αἰώνιος, ον (sometimes ος, ία, ον) eternal, everlasting, opposite πρόσκαιρος (temporary, transitory); (1) of God without beginning or end, eternal (RO 16.26); (2) without beginning (RO 16.25); (3) without end, everlasting (2C 5.1); (4) neuter singular αἰώνιον as an adverb for all time, forever (PM 15)
 
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ClementofA

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There isn't anything in the book of Lamentations that is out of this context. The ENTIRE BOOK is dedicated to lamenting Jehovah's punishment of Israel.

Therefore, the statement that Jehovah will not cast off forever is discussing His treatment of the repentant of Israel as expressed in the text.

The context says "sons of men". Not sons of Israel.

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundantlovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…
 
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ClementofA

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Everyone knows "burned up" is annihilated out of existence.

You are still lacking anything that says anyone is ever endlessly annihilated.

As for a resurrection out of the lake of fire:

Rev.21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)? Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?

Verse 8 refers back to what already transpired in Revelation 20:13-15. And gives additional info re what persons will be cast into the lake of fire, calling it the second death. If death is gone (21:4), then why does the author refer to death again in 21:8?

It is a mistake to assume chapters 20-22 of Revelation are written in chronological order.

If everyone's destinies are finalized at 21:4-5, then why does God say in verse 6 "to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely"? Because those in the lake of fire (21:8; 20:13-15) can still be saved? The gates into the holy city are never shut (21:25).

If 21:4 refers only to the saved at that time, verse 5 says in various translations God is "making ALL" new. And there is still death which hasn't been abolished yet (1 Cor.15:22-28).

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be sub-
jected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is
God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be
ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."

As in Adam all die
 
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