Does Doctrine Influence Scripture?

Erose said:

Some questions for you to think about. When the writers of the NT use to term "father" to refer to someone who is not God the Father, are they committing a sin? Or when St. Paul refers to Timothy and Titus as being beloved sons, which would infer that he considers himself as a father figure to both of these men, is he committing a sin? Or when in 1st Timothy 5:1, when St. Paul entreats the congregation to treat the elderly men as "fathers" is he leading this congregation into sin?

Or perhaps is it possible that you may not have a full understanding of what Jesus was trying to teach here?

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Not at all. Scripture is specific. Treating someone as one would TREAT a father is not calling someone a father.

1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

Now how about you answer the question that I asked, which I will cut and paste here again:

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So you don't have any conflict with the verse that God tells us to call no one Father but Him? Explain to me how you can make sense of that one?

Matthew 23:9
9 And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

ToBeLoved said:

How does that prove that we should get our doctrine from any church totally?

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Never said "totally". Revelation comes in two categories i.e. Public and Private. Public revelation is what does God's Church hand down to us, the Bible is part of Public revelation for example. Private is how do we apply these truths to our lives. In this area there can be many conclusions. For example for some prayer in the morning is preferred, others prayer in the evening, for others prayer in both morning and evening, again others pray 5 times daily, and so on.

ToBeLoved said:

The Berean's were commended for searching the scriptures for everything that was preached to them to see if in the Bible it is so.

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Yep, and no one is saying otherwise. Any paradigm of knowledge if it is true will stand up to scrutiny. The issue comes when someone is evaluating that paradigm from a position of preprogrammed false understandings, which is the crux of this thread.

ToBeLoved said:

So is this not the example given in scripture of how we are to be taught? To search the scripture and confirm teaching, not just take it for granted that what they are telling us is true?

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I would agree yes; but it must be done with an open mind, and I would recommend having someone to help guide you. That is the importance of the makeup of most churches having a sermon (lesson) from their pastor and Sunday school classes of some sort.

The Bible has many passages that can be confusing to those who don't start with some knowledge of what it is talking about, so it can be confusing to the Biblically illiterate.

ToBeLoved said:

Not at all. Scripture is specific. Treating someone as one would TREAT a father is not calling someone a father.

1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

Now how about you answer the question that I asked, which I will cut and paste here again:

********
So you don't have any conflict with the verse that God tells us to call no one Father but Him? Explain to me how you can make sense of that one?

Matthew 23:9
9 And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

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So in each reference that the authors of the NT call someone else besides God father they are wrong?

"The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against his father, the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother, the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." [Luke 12:53]

"And might be the father of circumcision; not to them only, that are of the circumcision, but to them also that follow the steps of the faithful, that is in the uncircumcision of our father Abraham." [Romans 4:12]

"But hearing that Archelaus reigned in Judea in the room of Herod his father, he was afraid to go thither: and being warned in sleep retired into the quarters of Galilee." [Matthew 2:22]

"And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets: and he called them." [Matthew 4:21]

"Blessed be the kingdom of our father David that cometh: Hosanna in the highest." [Mark 11:10]

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever." [Luke 1:32]

"And Zachary his father was filled with the Holy Ghost; and he prophesied, saying:" [Luke 1:67]

"And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?" [Luke 11:11]

These are just a few examples.

Erose said:

Never said "totally". Revelation comes in two categories i.e. Public and Private. Public revelation is what does God's Church hand down to us, the Bible is part of Public revelation for example. Private is how do we apply these truths to our lives. In this area there can be many conclusions.

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You do not understand God's public revelation to us very well.

Even in Jesus time, He told us not to follow the traditions of men, but to follow the Word of God. So you may take what your church gives you as God's public revelation, but there are many false prophets and false churches, Jesus also says that. So you are setting yourself up for problems because you haven't been listening to what God says about these things.

God's public revelation is His Word, the life of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit that lives inside of each of us.

Now, if you add to that, then you are making something else a revelation of God that He did not Himself make. As a matter of fact, God says that under the New Covenant that man will not teach man, but that each man will be taught by what God has given us.

Erose said:

So in each reference that the authors of the NT call someone else besides God father they are wrong?

"The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against his father, the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother, the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." [Luke 12:53]

"And might be the father of circumcision; not to them only, that are of the circumcision, but to them also that follow the steps of the faithful, that is in the uncircumcision of our father Abraham." [Romans 4:12]

"But hearing that Archelaus reigned in Judea in the room of Herod his father, he was afraid to go thither: and being warned in sleep retired into the quarters of Galilee." [Matthew 2:22]

"And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets: and he called them." [Matthew 4:21]

"Blessed be the kingdom of our father David that cometh: Hosanna in the highest." [Mark 11:10]

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever." [Luke 1:32]

"And Zachary his father was filled with the Holy Ghost; and he prophesied, saying:" [Luke 1:67]

"And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?" [Luke 11:11]

These are just a few examples.

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I don't think you read the initial verse. God says that we should not CALL another man father.

Now, I know that parishoner's call a Catholic priest, father. I went to a Catholic grade school and it caused me to sin.
Father can also be a designation of a relationship.

ToBeLoved said:

Even in Jesus time, He told us not to follow the traditions of men, but to follow the Word of God. So you may take what your church gives you as God's public revelation, but there are many false prophets and false churches, Jesus also says that. So you are setting yourself up for problems because you haven't been listening to what God says about these things.

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Hum...what God says. Question for you the Bible that you read, how did you get it? Did if fall out of the sky at your birth? Or was it given to you by someone else or did you buy it? Did you write it yourself or was it printed for you? Was the mission journey of the Apostles basically a Bible distribution program, or did they go about preaching and teaching the word?

I agree with you that there are many false prophets and false churches, so how does one discern which is the true prophet and true church? The Bible gives us help in this, by telling us that the gates of hell will not overcome the one true church built upon the Rock. So which Church can claim this? One that came into existence around 2000 years after these words were spoken and written down, or the one that was founded by Jesus and His Apostles after him? I'll go with the latter.

ToBeLoved said:

God's public revelation is His Word, the life of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit that lives inside of each of us.

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Amen.

ToBeLoved said:

Now, if you add to that, then you are making something else a revelation of God that He did not Himself make.

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I agree, and this is why I am no longer a Protestant.

ToBeLoved said:

As a matter of fact, God says that under the New Covenant that man will not teach man, but that each man will be taught by what God has given us.

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True, the question is what has God given us, and by what means?

ToBeLoved said:

I don't think you read the initial verse. God says that we should not CALL another man father.

Now, I know that parishoner's call a Catholic priest, father. I went to a Catholic grade school and it caused me to sin.
Father can also be a designation of a relationship.

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So did you refer to your father as dad, daddy, papa, father, etc.; did you refer to him by something else?

Erose said:

Hum...what God says. Question for you the Bible that you read, how did you get it? Did if fall out of the sky at your birth? Or was it given to you by someone else or did you buy it? Did you write it yourself or was it printed for you? Was the mission journey of the Apostles basically a Bible distribution program, or did they go about preaching and teaching the word?

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The Bible wasn't finished during some of the apostles lifetimes. Plus printing didn't exist, so must people could not read, much less have the documents written by scribes for them to own.

What is your point? I'm not getting where you are going?

I would still like an answer to my question that I posted twice now about the verse to call no MAN father.

Erose said:

So did you refer to your father as dad, daddy, papa, father, etc.; did you refer to him by something else?

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dad.

You?

ToBeLoved said:

dad.

You?

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So you are saying it's okay for you to sin, but not anyone else?

ToBeLoved said:

The Bible wasn't finished during some of the apostles lifetimes. Plus printing didn't exist, so must people could not read, much less have the documents written by scribes for them to own.

What is your point? I'm not getting where you are going?

I would still like an answer to my question that I posted twice now about the verse to call no MAN father.

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Where I'm going is hopefully you seeing the answer.

Concerning the question you asked, I'm thinking we are getting close to that one as well.

Erose said:

So you are saying it's okay for you to sin, but not anyone else?

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It is a specific word. maybe we need to stop talking because you seem to be not understanding this conversation is about one word here.

Is that a hard concept?

Erose said:

Where I'm going is hopefully you seeing the answer.

Concerning the question you asked, I'm thinking we are getting close to that one as well.

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Well, Fridays I take it easy, specficially in the afternoon. So if we don't have any point then lets just end this discussion because it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. Seems your being a little passive-agressive

AnticipateHisComing said:

Does a church's doctrine influence one's understanding of scripture?

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Yes.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Is it biased, based on their church's doctrine ....?

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Yes.

AnticipateHisComing said:

If a pastor comes to a different understanding of scripture than what the church's official position is, they are labeled heretic and pushed out if they continue.

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Yes.

ToBeLoved said:

It is a specific word. maybe we need to stop talking because you seem to be not understanding this conversation is about one word here.

Is that a hard concept?

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Actually yes it seems it is. From what I see is that you don't have an issue with anyone else referring to someone as father or it's many synonyms and translations, instead it is just Catholics using it that you have an issue with.

If it makes you feel better the word that our Lord spoke wasn't Father. That is an English translation from a Greek word, that was a translation of the Aramaic word for 'Father'. So if it as specific word you are having issues with, it ultimately isn't 'father'.

ToBeLoved said:

Well, Fridays I take it easy, specficially in the afternoon. So if we don't have any point then lets just end this discussion because it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. Seems your being a little passive-agressive

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Actually I'm trying to help you to the answer. But you aren't interested in anything but arguing, so you are probably right.

Erose said:

I agree with you that there are many false prophets and false churches, so how does one discern which is the true prophet and true church?

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By honoring Scripture
Pray to YHWH to reveal the TRUTH.
No one else can reveal it,
nor can anyone else take the veil away.
(from man's understanding)

Erose said:

So you are saying it's okay for you to sin, but not anyone else?

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Jump to conclusions much? And put words in people's mouths?

If you have a question ask. Don't make assumptions

Erose said:

Actually I'm trying to help you to the answer. But you aren't interested in anything but arguing, so you are probably right.

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Try just being honest and asking. Don't lead me to the water I don't have all day.

How do you reconcile that verse? Or is that why you are concentrating so hard on me rather than answering?

Erose said:

Actually yes it seems it is. From what I see is that you don't have an issue with anyone else referring to someone as father or it's many synonyms and translations, instead it is just Catholics using it that you have an issue with.

If it makes you feel better the word that our Lord spoke wasn't Father. That is an English translation from a Greek word, that was a translation of the Aramaic word for 'Father'. So if it as specific word you are having issues with, it ultimately isn't 'father'.

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So what is the Aramaic word then. We can look it up together?