the origin of ALLAH's name

GeorgeTwo · Jun 14, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Words of a man who never met Jesus pbuh.

Why would you say Peter never met Jesus?

Muslim-UK said:
Peter says the man is a clear enemy of the believers,

Where?

Muslim-UK said:
with Paul himself saying he became all things to all men, so that he might win them over to his brand of Salvation.

You are speaking of 1 Corinthians 9:

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law[c]—to win those under the law. 21 To those who are without that law, like one without the law—not being without God’s law but within Christ’s law—to win those without the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that I may by every possible means save some.

First observation is that Paul wants to save these people, so he believed they are unsaved the way they are.

The first sentence gives a hint. How does a Jew become like a Jew when he is already a Jew?

He probably would try to convince the Jew that Jesus is the Messiah, the savior, and Lord of all by citing Scriptures and explaining them to him and show that God has provided salvation through Jesus by citing Scriptures.

How would Paul convince the Greeks/Gentiles that Jesus is the Messiah and that He died for them too?

He might start by pointing out that God is their God too.

"Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too."

And then explain that this God sent His Messiah, Jesus, to die for them too.

Paul is putting himself in their position, understanding where they are coming from.

gadar perets · Jun 14, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I will look into the Greek article and see how it differs when used to describe Adam pbuh, Adam is the Son of God. Luke 3:3

The words "the son" are not in the Greek. It simply says Adam was of God.

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. Qur'an 3:59

Click to expand...

Yeshua was not created from dust. He was created when Mary's egg was fertilized with YHWH's words with the exact DNA needed to make a human male.

On your second point, Jesus pbuh at the right hand side of God:

Or have men taken for themselves gods from the earth who resurrect [the dead]?
Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe. Qur'an 2:20-22

You can not have 2 Almighty divine beings; just doesn't ring true:

God A: I will make this group amongst mankind victorious.
God B: I don't like them and will make this other group overcome your group.

Did Jesus pbuh involve himself in this erroneous doctrine?....

He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned. Qur'an 21:23

I did not say Yeshua is "God" or "a God" or "the Almighty". He is none of those. However, he IS an "elohim" in the Hebrew sense of the word as used in Psalm 82:6 and Psalm 45:6-7.

gadar perets · Jun 15, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I checked the oldest complete NT and it says,
38 son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.
Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Luke |

http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/...chapter=3&lid=en&side=r&verse=30&zoomSlider=0
You need to check that link again. The word "son" does not appear anywhere in that genealogy after its use in Luke 3:23.

Where the Greek on the left looks like "TOY ADAM" it means "OF ADAM". The line below that looks like "TOY OY" would read "OF GOD". Do not be concerned about the English translation on the bottom left. The Greek is what matters.

Mary's DNA trail goes all the way back to Adam pbuh, and he was made from dust according to both the Bible and Qur'an.

Yes, but the DNA provided by YHWH does not go back to Adam. That is why YHWH is Yeshua's Father and why Yeshua is His only begotten Son in a sense that is totally unlike any other man. Adam was created and all other men were begotten by men.

Ok so if Yeshua is not God like the Almighty, then there's very little disagreement between us at this stage. Are you a JW?

I am not a JW. Our biggest disagreement is that (IMHO, not knowing exactly how you believe) you do not give glory to Yeshua the way the NT teaches/requires. He is not only a prophet, but he is the only way to the Father (John 14:6). There is no salvation for anyone except through Yeshua (Acts 4:12). Eternal life only comes through the Son (John 10:28;11:25-26;17:2-3). You are correct in not exalting Yeshua into the position of the one true God, but you err in not putting your trust in him for salvation unto eternal life.

GeorgeTwo · Jun 15, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
The one writing the account is Luke who never met Jesus pbuh. He was a Disciple of Paul and we know Peter and Paul were in different camps.

Luke was a historian and he accurately quoted Peter.

Why do you use Acts, written by Luke to prove some kind of a point and then balk when I use it?

Muslim-UK said:
They have a showdown in Gal 2. Peter agreed with James the brother of Jesus pbuh.

What do you think the "showdown" was about in Galatians 2?

gadar perets · Jun 15, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Ok no problem. Adam is of God, no DNA required, which makes him greater than Jesus pbuh. But no, we don't praise him anymore than we praise any other Prophet of God, peace be upon them all.

Therein lies the problem. The lack of exaltation of Yeshua above all other names except YHWH's. Adam is greater than Yeshua (Jesus)??? Adam was a sinner made from dirt and Yeshua was sinless made from YHWH's spoken words.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him (Yeshua), and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Yeshua every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Yeshua Messiah is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

He said, 'Be' and he was. No more a son of God than others before him.

Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the begotten Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High".
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'
God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22

These are honorific titles given to Mighty Messengers and pious people learned in the Laws given by GOD.

I agree with your conclusion, but I disagree about Psalm 2:7 referring to David. It refers to Yeshua's resurrection from the dead, not to David's conception/birth.

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Yeshua again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
And as concerning that He raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, He said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:33-39

Yes following the Prophet or Messenger of the time is the only way to God, no doubt.

Not quite. Yeshua is the only way to God for all men at all times.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This is not a limited salvation, but a universal salvation for all the inhabitants of the world.

Tell me what more Muhammad did for you to provide a way for you to God that Yeshua did not already provide?

I opened a thread and asked if Jesus pbuh was the only way? I did not receive any concrete evidence: Can you be saved without Christ?

Therefore the only way is the tried and tested, Worship God alone and I have Torah, Injeel and Qur'an as my evidence.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/can-you-be-saved-without-christ.8011191/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/can-you-be-saved-without-christ.8011191/
I guess I missed that thread. Is it safe to say you reject any evidence from the New Testament? Why do you include the "Injeel" if it is lost? May I ask what the few verses preserved from it say?

Isaiah 46:9 "...I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,

"I am a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40)

Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Qur'an 10:104 Say, "O people, if you have any doubt regarding my religion, I do not worship what you worship beside GOD. I worship GOD alone; the One who will terminate your lives. I am commanded to be a believer."

At least you are closer to the truth than most on here.
Peace

Why do you accept the words of Yeshua quoted above, but reject his other words such as John 14:6; 10:28;11:25-26;17:2-3? It seems to me that in your zeal to worship only the one God in opposition to the Christian way of worshiping Yeshua as the one God, that you have gone too far in the other direction. You believe Yeshua's words were only for people in his day, but not for you and all mankind in any day. You really need to rethink that.

GeorgeTwo · Jun 15, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Read this letter Peter writes to James:

"For some from among the Gentiles have rejected my legal preaching, attaching themselves to certain lawless and trifling preaching of the man who is my enemy."

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. VIII

This is part of the Pseudo-Clementine literature, which dates from the 3rd to the 5th century, depending on who you speak to.

It is pseudipigraphic. Both Peter and James were dead when it was written.

GeorgeTwo · Jun 15, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Yes fair enough, but he made clear works and animal sacrifices were no longer required, yet that's exactly what he does when he goes to Jerusalem to meet the Disciples Acts 21 proving he was able to conceal what he preached to promote his Gospel.

Paul on Works:

Ephesians 2:8-10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:5-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

5 He saved us—
not by works of righteousness that we had done,
but according to His mercy,
through the washing of regeneration
and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly
through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace,
we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

The key to understanding some of Paul's Scriptures is to find out who he was speaking to -- Jews or Gentiles.

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles and Gentiles were never required to follows laws specifically meant for Jews.

Muslim-UK said:
Paul knew exactly where they were coming from, he grew up amongst the Greeks, was Schooled in their ways and that of the Rabbis, he knew how to sell them repackaged Pagan Sun worship of old.

Pure nonsense.

Muslim-UK said:
Paul may have wanted the best for everyone he came across, he makes a very appealing case, but ultimately he sidelined the Torah to do it.

No, he did not.

The key to understanding some of Paul's Scriptures is to find out who he was speaking to -- Jews or Gentiles.

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles and Gentiles were never required to follows laws specifically meant for Jews.

gadar perets · Jun 15, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Jewish Commentary:

I will tell of the decree: Said David, “This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.”
The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.
You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called “My firstborn son.” And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): “for God said, etc., ‘By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver… Israel.’” And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.
this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.
begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son.” We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) “He shall call Me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’”

I'm not going to argue over it, but if you start a thread in the Jewish section of the board and can prove it's Yeshua and not David, I'd be interesting in following along.

Of course Jews would agree it refers to David. They have been blinded to the truth that Yeshua is not only a Prophet of God, but the Messiah. Based on your post, you believe he was both.

Show me from the lips of Jesus pbuh, not what later writers have to say, people who never even met him at that.

Where do I find his words from his own lips if not in the NT? Do you accept ANY words in the NT that the author identified as his?

Anything that matches with the Qur'an is what remains of the original Injeel. Anything else that promotes good is likely to be part of the original Injeel, anything going against the Torah or Qur'an is rejected, what remains of the NT after that is open for discussion.

That sounds rather convenient to keep people in ignorance concerning truth.

He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel scattered amongst the nations of the World.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Muslim understanding of Jesus pbuh:
He was a mighty Messenger of God, the Messiah born of a virgin who did many miracles, prayed to be saved from his enemies, and was taken up to Heaven alive. He is there in suspended animation awaiting the appointed hour for his return to Earth, where he will kill the Dajjal (Anti-Christ). He will reign as King and clear up the misconceptions surrounding the Christian understanding of who he is. He will live as a ruler over all the Earth, get married, have children and after 40 years die like every other man before him.

When you say, "taken up to Heaven alive," do you mean after he was resurrected from the dead?

"Suspended animation"?? Does that mean he is oblivious to what is going on on earth?

You say he has been in suspended animation for almost 2,000 years. When that ends, he will wake up(?) and only live another 40 years, then die?? Then what? Do you believe in eternal life at all? Of all people, surely the Messiah will live forever. No?

So, you believe he is a Prophet of God, the Messiah, born of a virgin, ascended to Heaven and a future King. That is a good start, but he is so much more.

gadar perets · Jun 15, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
The verses you quoted from the Gospel of John are not what Jesus pbuh would have said. Why would he proclaim himself to be the lamb come to atone for the sins of mankind, like that's his clear purpose and mission, ready to die willingly, yet in mark's Gospel he's sick with worry? Looks like John or whoever wrote it is turning Jesus pbuh into a higher being. You don't see this Lamb of God in any of the Synoptic Gospels. John even moves the day of the crucifixion to the preparation day, the lamb being made ready.

There is really no sense in me continuing this conversation unless you clearly tell me what NT book, in your mind, I can find Yeshua's words. If you totally reject the entire NT, then we might as well end our discussion.

This is talking about the Tribes of Jacob and the fall of Babylon. The verse in the Jewish Bible reads:
49:6 And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth."

Isaiah chapters 46to 50

The Jews would be a light to the surrounding Nations. Not that a Jewish man would become a idolised and venerated by Gentiles.

The fact that Gentiles came to idolize Jesus does not change the fact that Isaiah was not referring to Israel in 49:6. YHWH will not use Israel to establish the tribes of Jacob (Israel), nor will He use Israel to bring Israel back. It makes no sense to use a sinful, disobedient people to restore a sinful, disobedient people. He will use His chosen King, Messiah Yeshua, who was sinless and totally obedient. He is the epitome of what a true Israelite should be which is why he is called "Israel" in Isaiah 49:3. He is the King that sits upon the throne of David over Israel.

Not sure when he was taken up, but I can tell you, he was neither killed or crucified.

So, now you reject every NT gospel account of his death as well as all other NT books?

Yes I personally believe he can't hear nor see a thing that's going on here. In the Qur'an he was caused to die, but the word used, 'tawaffa' denotes a death like we all experience every night when we sleep, and was subsequently taken up.

The NT speaks of death the same way, as a kind of sleep. Yeshua was awoken out of that death/sleep when YHWH resurrected him from the grave (Psalm 16:10).

We have to accept we will likely never sing from the same page, though it's only the status of Jesus pbuh that currently divides us.

We probably have a lot more that divides us than you think. Singing from the same page is up to you. If you persist in your rejection of all NT writings, then you are correct. The Qur'an must align with Torah and the NT, not vice versa.

habibii zahra · Jun 16, 2017

our god and yours are one:
the Quran:
And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."

Dave-W · Jun 19, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Jews are not antichrists.
Muslims are not antichrists.
That is not the meaning or intent of the epistle.

Actually it is one of several intents in the epistle.

And yes, traditional Judaism that denies the Son also is operating in a spirit of antichrist.

Dave-W · Jun 19, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I'm confused because the person mentioned in Daniel 7 was to be given authority, reign as King and all Nations were to serve him.

When Messiah ben Yosef (the suffering servant) returns to Earth as Messiah ben David (the conquering King) all nations WILL serve Him.

In case you had not heard, Jesus is coming back. In Romans 11 Paul calls them "enemies of the gospel."

Dave-W · Jun 19, 2017

habibii zahra said:
..the antichrist is the one who refuse to believe in god the lord of moses jesus and Mohammad...

Based on what? Go re-read the first epistle of John.

Dave-W · Jun 19, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
Jews also deny the sonship of Christ... but most people don't understand that as meaning that Jews worship a different god.

True. But the God of the Jews in His Torah never said He did not have a Son. Those Jews who teach that are also operating in the spirit of antichrist.

JCFantasy23 · Jun 23, 2017

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This is an older thread, but with the SOP changes, we are now closing this because it is a Statement of Purpose Violation

Members may start threads which request information about another religion, but they may not start threads to promote their own religion.

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the origin of ALLAH's name

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